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Thread: Magic - the Cheatering

  1. #41
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I beg to differ. I had opponents thinking about declaring attackers for a Minute and then calling for a Judge to Penalty me for slow-play during my Ad Nauseam into Past in Flames loop instead of just scooping
    I hope that the judges slapped them in face.

  2. #42
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I hope that the judges slapped them in face.
    Nope, i just decided to play around much longer as necessary just for the Grapeshot ^^
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by alphastryk View Post
    Sorry. I promise most Miracles players aren't that way. I've found that most experienced ones are very, very fast players. I finished two mirrors at Legacy Champs with more than 20 minutes left in the round.
    i think players like Bertoncini should be banned for life. When you make several infractions intentionally you should lose your privilege to play the game.

    I had an opponent this weekend INTENTIONALLY missing an ancestral vision suspend trigger...the counters magically stopped getting removed once it got to 1 counter. I called the judge and the judge was reluctant to undo his draw and resolve the missed trigger until i explained the situation. It was obviously intentional because he didn't want to draw cards. He had missed several turns of this trigger. He had an ensnaring bridge in play and 6 cards in hand and I had a griselbrand in play waiting to attack him. He was drawing dead because i had a blood moon in play. In cases like that i think he should have gotten a game loss. He did end up losing the game but the judge should have gave it to him for manipulating the rules as part of game strategy..."if i just pretend to miss this trigger i'll eek out a couple of turns and hope to throw the game into a draw"

    i agree with the OP, there needs to be harsher punishments for intentional infractions.
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  4. #44
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    well the problem is. how do you know its intentional or not? A skilled cheater will let it look like sloppy play. So either you tighten the rules for all players or you accept that shady behaviour will get them into top8

    http://www.twitch.tv/lotusnoirtv/b/475863316?t=78m38s

    Im to lazy to find the other "misplays"
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    well the problem is. how do you know its intentional or not? A skilled cheater will let it look like sloppy play. So either you tighten the rules for all players or you accept that shady behaviour will get them into top8

    http://www.twitch.tv/lotusnoirtv/b/475863316?t=78m38s

    Im to lazy to find the other "misplays"
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  6. #46
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    @ Humphrey

    You still have not responded to my statement. In your OP, you state that you want an auto-loss for any infraction. Also in your OP, you use a sports example to support your suggestion. To this, using a sports example as well, I'd say this:

    If the Carolina Panthers are on offense and the Atlanta Falcons are on defense, and the Falcons get called for having 12 men on the field (rules infraction), using your logic, you'd want the referee to state "Due to the defense having 12 men on the field, instead of the normal 5 yard penalty, the Carolina Panthers win the game. Everyone can go home now".

    Now what do yo have to say about that? Again, your OP wants a game-loss for any infraction. What's the difference between your desire and the above hypothetical scenario?

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    The only difference between cheating and poor play is intent. But really both are equally egregious. People just need to be less timid about calling out their opponents for manhandling the top of their deck every Brainstorm. Call a judge, either they're a cheater or they're a slob, and the outcomes are either they'll be caught a cheater, or learn to clean up their slobby game, or quit because they don't possess the fine dexterity to handle cards. All of these things are good endings.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    The only difference between cheating and poor play is intent. But really both are equally egregious. People just need to be less timid about calling out their opponents for manhandling the top of their deck every Brainstorm. Call a judge, either they're a cheater or they're a slob, and the outcomes are either they'll be caught a cheater, or learn to clean up their slobby game, or quit because they don't possess the fine dexterity to handle cards. All of these things are good endings.
    It's not as easy to say "clean up your game", because being mentally exhausted is a huge factor in poor play. By the end of SCG LA I was forgetting to write down life loss due to Thoughtseize and fetchlands and got a warning for doing something completely stupid. I would have never made those mistakes at the beginning of the day, but playing for nearly 11 hours can really take a toll.
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  9. #49
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post

    10/1/2009: The targeted player controlling more creatures than the current player is a part of the targeting requirement. A player can't be targeted by this ability unless it's true, and the ability will be countered on resolution if it's no longer true at that time.

    Oath of Druids will only trigger if a player has fewer creatures than an opponent. It will go on the stack. Then, upon resolution, it will check again. If creatures are at parity, the trigger will fail. What you described can and does happen as it should.

    It doesn't work this way on Magic Online. Oath goes on the stack and if there is parity it fizzles with split second. No way to respond to it. And it always has been this way, so I don't think it's a bug... Maybe Humphrey should have described the situation better.


    Best thing that happened at the BOM though was when a previous GP winner tried to use Mother of Runes with haste. Guy must have smoked a really fat joint before the match, or how else can you "forget" about that? I don't even think he got a warning for that, the judge only pointed out that Mum has summoning sickness...
    Humphrey is always correct.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziveeman View Post
    It's not as easy to say "clean up your game", because being mentally exhausted is a huge factor in poor play. By the end of SCG LA I was forgetting to write down life loss due to Thoughtseize and fetchlands and got a warning for doing something completely stupid. I would have never made those mistakes at the beginning of the day, but playing for nearly 11 hours can really take a toll.
    Saying "clean up your game" is incredibly easy, but doing that, okay point taken. And I think players with an accurate sense of tournaments understand that in these single day events endurance is as much a factor as deck construction. My thoughts are not without caveats, and 11 hours of straight play is certainly reason to excuse mistakes, and it seems you were warned for it, and so the system works, no complaints.

    The real fallacy with comparing Magic to professional sports is that there is no professionalism in the game. It is by nature an amateur endeavor by all. Even the biggest phenom in sports will be subject to training, camps, practice and follow established avenues of success to achieve at whatever they are doing. Anyone who has played a sport will know that they drill through you the most basic steps until they consider teaching you further. We had to know how to tie our cleats up before they taught us how to slide into base. Hold the bat before you swing, whatever.

    Magic has none of that, there is no spring training to learn how to shuffle, or Brainstorm, or properly announce spells, or any of the basic components of the game. Just a legal decklist, basic comprehension of the rules, and you could be champion, ham-fisting all the way. And without anybody telling them otherwise, they'd have no clue.

  11. #51
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    ^This.

    People learn through penalties and infractions and judge calls and all that. They get a slap on the wrist and learn their lesson, hopefully to never do it again.

    The only thing people would learn with penalties as harsh as the OP is calling for is a hatred for rules enforcement. Judges have enough BS to deal with. Let's not turn the playerbase against them by making judges deal out gamelosses for simple things.

    And yes, this creates an environment where cheating is a thing. But it is impossible to do away with that sort of behavior entirely. People will cheat. In this and any and every game. The rules have accounted for that and a structure is in place to deal with it. Trying to beat up on players with good intentions, who make honest mistakes, is not the correct way to address this particular problem.

  12. #52

    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    i think players like Bertoncini should be banned for life. When you make several infractions intentionally you should lose your privilege to play the game.

    I had an opponent this weekend INTENTIONALLY missing an ancestral vision suspend trigger...the counters magically stopped getting removed once it got to 1 counter. I called the judge and the judge was reluctant to undo his draw and resolve the missed trigger until i explained the situation. It was obviously intentional because he didn't want to draw cards. He had missed several turns of this trigger. He had an ensnaring bridge in play and 6 cards in hand and I had a griselbrand in play waiting to attack him. He was drawing dead because i had a blood moon in play. In cases like that i think he should have gotten a game loss. He did end up losing the game but the judge should have gave it to him for manipulating the rules as part of game strategy..."if i just pretend to miss this trigger i'll eek out a couple of turns and hope to throw the game into a draw"

    i agree with the OP, there needs to be harsher punishments for intentional infractions.
    In that case couldn't you remind him of the trigger, making him obliged to make it occur? I thought that missed triggers were only really 'missed' if neither player pointed it out.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn View Post
    So Bertoncini counts as "all the time"?
    Poor example by OP, indeed. I recall a few high profile players who were caught cheating and punished with DCI bans (Fuentes anyone?) but it certainly doesn't mean cheaters are running rampant. I'd be very surprised if someone attempts to cheat vs me at the GP and if that's the common mentality then I don't see a problem.


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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    In that case couldn't you remind him of the trigger, making him obliged to make it occur? I thought that missed triggers were only really 'missed' if neither player pointed it out.
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    I personally think that cheating in important events, especially in the early rounds when judges are much more outnumbered, is rampant. The amazing thing here is that we are discussing things that can be seen, like drawing three off of brainstorm or forgetting triggers. Personally, I think that there is a lot of false shuffles, marking, not drawing the top card, drawing multiple cards in one step, and hiding cards that happens. Those things are really difficult to detect.

    The judges at MTG events, although knowledgeable about the game, are not experts at catching cheats. Intent makes the issue even more complex on the stuff you guys are seeing on the videos. Does everyone here know that people get away with cheating at cards in Vegas all the time. Sometimes they get caught, but usually after a long time. There is no feasible way to prevent cheating in our game with physical cards with the resources that are available. It is one of the secrets that TOs and judges would like to ignore.

    There are some things we could suggest doing to reduce the chance of cheating, but they would remove a lot of the feel of the game.

    We could have a clock with a 2 second delay and N minutes per player per round, it is used often enough in chess. This would remove some of the stalling risk. Rules would need to be designed around priority, shuffles, and sideboarding. This seems like it would solve a problem but I promise that it would create many many more.

    We could make change the way that cards are drawn and how decks are shuffled. Essentially we could make your opponent shuffle and deal cards from your deck. This would significantly reduce many kinds of cheating. It would also mean that you have to trust your opponent with your property for more than just shuffle cuts. This would make the game much more serious.

    In the end Magic is a casual thing. In the highest level of play there is no fairness in thinking time, unlike chess, checkers, go, scrabble. In addition, you deal cards to yourself and everyone is okay with that for some reason.

    Magic, even at the highest level, is a fun casual game.

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    In addition, you deal cards to yourself and everyone is okay with that for some reason.
    Funny how if you did the exact opposite, your opponents would be put completely on edge, like you're about to do a (pun forced) magic trick.

    As everyone can see, nothing up my sleeve, first I cast Ad Nauseam, now then please put the top card of the deck face up until I tell you to stop. Taadaa, you're dead!

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Funny how if you did the exact opposite, your opponents would be put completely on edge, like you're about to do a (pun forced) magic trick.

    As everyone can see, nothing up my sleeve, first I cast Ad Nauseam, now then please put the top card of the deck face up until I tell you to stop. Taadaa, you're dead!
    That last part made me spit out my drink, thanks :)

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Look guys, it's another scandal with our favorite player!
    http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...nd_account_of/

    Text for those who don't want to click things:
    I thought I would share what I witnessed at Grand Prix Phoenix this past weekend. I've seen a lot of crazy rumors on twitter and the internet, so out of fairness to Alex I think it makes sense to just get the facts out there.



    In Round 12, I was easily defeated by the amiable Florian Koch at Table 41. Next to us, at Table 42, Chris LaVassaur was locked in battle with Alex Bertoncini. As I packed my deck, dice, and pen into my bag, Alex cast the spell Supreme Verdict, wiping Chris's board and leaving Chris with only Mutavault to attack Alex. I noticed that Alex had tapped three blue and one white mana for his Verdict, leaving up another white mana and Mutavault.



    I immediately informed Alex that he needed two white for his Verdict and then started to walk away.



    Although I don't know Alex personally, his reputation precedes him, so I decided to quickly check out Alex's hand to confirm that this was an honest mistake. As soon as I walked behind him, I noticed the card he had at the front of his hand: Last Breath.



    I sprinted to the head judge to let her know what I had witnessed and suggest that they pause the match and investigate. Although I don't know all the details of the on-site investigation, Alex was not assessed a penalty.



    It's virtually impossible to prove intent in situations like this, but the combination of a simple board state, motive (the Last Breath vs. opposing Mutavault) and the player's reputation set off alarm bells in my head.



    Unfortunately, I don't have information such as life totals, what game it was, or other context. And I made a critical mistake by not forcing the players to pause the match while I got a judge. My instinct was just to run to someone wearing a red shirt, and I followed it.



    Please take two things away from this:

    1. Protect yourself at all times and please don't be offended when your opponent does the same. Holding your opponent to a high technical standard and calling judges for seemingly minor infractions doesn't mean you are accusing them of cheating. It's making the world a better place.

    2. If you see something that doesn't look right, pause the match and find a judge. Don't let the players keep playing. I blew it, and I regret it.



    Best regards,

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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Are we trying him, Sam Black, and other incidents under the Court of Public Opinion? If so, then I propose we go into session.

    Otherwise, by all accounts, this was already been handled by Judges from the event; which means we have nothing more to discuss other than:

    Be vigilant. Call a judge.
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    Re: Magic - the Cheatering

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    Are we trying him, Sam Black, and other incidents under the Court of Public Opinion? If so, then I propose we go into session
    Court of public opinion is called to order. The honorable judge reddit is presiding.

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