Magic - the Cheatering

[guillemnicolau]

In the situation he's provided, the guy has already looked at the deck. The problem is not just the guy being able to manipulate the deck but also the guy seeing what you're playing. For Julian (elves), seeing any one of ~50 of his cards will tell you a ton about the deck.

Keeping your hand or taking a mulligan is one of the hardest decissions in a magic game, and knowing what your opponent plays makes that decission much more easy. As an example, sometimes I've kept a hand expecting my opponent to play the same deck he played in the last tournament, and in the times that he's playing a different deck, I'm usually f***ed..

[H]

I was actually watching both the matches we have video for. I didn't actually see this in real-time, but honestly I wasn't paying nearly as much attention as I would have been had it been Legacy and not standard. I do recall thinking it was odd that no one told him to stop when he was riffling his own deck with the cards facing himself.

I think Julian is right though, there really should be more stringent rules about that you can't do and more enforcement of them. Guys like this are no doubt thriving on the lack of clarity from opponents and lack of enforcement (either by Judges or players not calling Judges). Frankly, what is really the point of your opponent shuffling your deck? If you have presented it non-randomized, shouldn't YOU be penalized? Double shuffling is a waste of time, just have the opponent cut.

[Julian23]

Yeah, realistically, lets get back on the actual topic at hand.

I was actually watching both the matches we have video for. I didn't actually see this in real-time, but honestly I wasn't paying nearly as much attention as I would have been had it been Legacy and not standard. I do recall thinking it was odd that no one told him to stop when he was riffling his own deck with the cards facing himself.

I think Julian is right though, there really should be more stringent rules about that you can't do and more enforcement of them. Guys like this are no doubt thriving on the lack of clarity from opponents and lack of enforcement (either by Judges or players not calling Judges). Frankly, what is really the point of your opponent shuffling your deck? If you have presented it non-randomized, shouldn't YOU be penalized? Double shuffling is a waste of time, just have the opponent cut.

I think that in the end, double shuffling itself prevents more cheating than it causes. To me, the biggest problem came about when WotC got rid of the final cut you had for your own deck. The fact that you are no longer allowed to cut your own deck once your opponent shuffled it is exactly the kind of thing that enables stuff like Fetchland-locks etc.

Bring back the final cut on your own deck.

[Dice_Box]

I think that in the end, double shuffling itself prevents more cheating than it causes. To me, the biggest problem came about when WotC god rid of the final cut you had for your own deck. The fact that you are no longer allowed to cut your own deck once your opponent shuffled it is exactly the kind of thing that enables stuff like Fetchland-locks etc.

Bring back the final cut on your own deck.

Seams quite reasonable. As a bonus, I feel having the community rally around a change like this would be nice, as I feel it would be far more binding than any other thread that pops up here. I would like to see us united over something for once.

[Sloshthedark]

I think that in the end, double shuffling itself prevents more cheating than it causes. To me, the biggest problem came about when WotC got rid of the final cut you had for your own deck. The fact that you are no longer allowed to cut your own deck once your opponent shuffled it is exactly the kind of thing that enables stuff like Fetchland-locks etc.

Bring back the final cut on your own deck.

Opp last principle is right, motivation to manipulate your deck is higher than opps, just imagine all the foil/alter "cheater" hunting this would unleash

[H]

There's always a chance for prestidigitation by either party. Upon further thought, I think the most effective probably be the same rule we have now, but a real enforcement of a rule that you cannot shuffle in any way that might allow you to even possibly see a card. In the Invitational video you can see him shuffling his own deck with the cards facing him. That should be a penalty right there, it just lends itself to bad things.

[JDK]

Oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...heated_at_scg/

:D

[Barook]

I really don't why there are still people who defend Bertoncheati with sentences like "Give him a second chance! He served his time!" when he gives countless examples of he's still an absolute scumbag who will continue to cheat until he gets a lifetime ban (which is long overdue btw).

He is that pathetic.

[Lemnear]

Oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...heated_at_scg/

:D

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgatl-leg-rd...-smith-5554549

I love the first Brainstorm he plays: "draw 3 cards. Then draw 3 more."

[Julian23]

The second 3 he draws is from when they are resolving Jin Gitaxis' triggered ability. But yeah, that first "Brainstorm" was pretty blatant.

[Charon]

At competitive REL, even players can stop matches for cheating.

At this point, why wouldn't we as a community, just have a team that is knocked out watch all his matches and call judges?

Self police to a degree known cheaters.

[Megadeus]

At competitive REL, even players can stop matches for cheating.

At this point, why wouldn't we as a community, just have a team that is knocked out watch all his matches and call judges?

Self police to a degree known cheaters.

Because it's not our job? If you sit down across from this dude, you should know to watch his ass like a hawk

[Charon]

Because it's not our job? If you sit down across from this dude, you should know to watch his ass like a hawk

I agree. It's not our job.

However, creating a community that actively helps police itself may dissuade cheaters. Many don't know all the tricks, many don't have the ability to focus on their play while looking for every opportunity of impropriety.

Was just a thought.

[iamajellydonut]

Trying to resolve an Ancestral Recall is pretty scummy, but what still gets me most about that video is the "draw four" Brainstorm after he'd already resolved the Jin-Gitaxias. Continuing to cheat after you've already won the game is just a whole different level of "scum".

[Lord Seth]

Oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/com...heated_at_scg/

:D

Did he at least get a warning? The post never says.

The key thing about warnings is that they do go into your record. So if you're constantly cheating and getting caught, you're building up warnings, which hopefully would make the DCI more incentivized to take action.

Then again, how much action does the DCI necessarily take? How many players have actually gotten a lifetime ban for cheating? I've seen some people get lifetime bans for other things (e.g. threatening bodily harm, outright theft), but not for actual cheating.

[Jon]

I really need to work on my Death Stare and get better at counting cards.

[Finn]

We need a Hall of Shame with footage of these losers. Perhaps we could then discuss who is the sauciest douche bag with the evidence clearly available in the OP

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Because it's not our job? If you sit down across from this dude, you should know to watch his ass like a hawk

I wouldn't have a smallest trouble spending my whole day by harassing someone like Broccolini, but only if it would mean something. As long as DCI is hesitant with longtime/lifetime bans, it has very little meaning, though. So what, you'll spend several hours by detective work with what result?
Legacy is in such a state that maybe this security job will be far more interesting than the actual gameplay. But then again why bother leaving home...
I don't get why SCG allows him in his tournaments. His blatant cheating is pretty bad advertisment.
Whatever...

[Megadeus]

I wouldn't have a smallest trouble spending my whole day by harassing someone like Broccolini, but only if it would mean something. As long as DCI is hesitant with longtime/lifetime bans, it has very little meaning, though. So what, you'll spend several hours by detective work with what result?
Legacy is in such a state that maybe this security job will be far more interesting than the actual gameplay. But then again why bother leaving home...
I don't get why SCG allows him in his tournaments. His blatant cheating is pretty bad advertisment.
Whatever...

Don't know about you guys, but I go to tournaments to hang out with friends and play magic. If judges and his opponents would handle situations the way they should behandled, we wouldn't have to deal with his stupid ass at all

[jandax]

http://blip.tv/scglive/scgatl-leg-rd...-smith-5554549

I love the first Brainstorm he plays: "draw 3 cards. Then draw 3 more."

"We're pausing there to figure out what happened. I think Alex got confused and didn't put two cards back..."