Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[Squirrel]

I get the sense that most people just think that it shouldn't exist because of its terrible design, not how good it is.

i know, but in my opinion, terrible Design is not a reason to get a card banned. Also, it is a quite new( and in some way innovative) Designs. Yes, it limits interaction, but isn't that a big part of legacy (any hard and softlock, Combo, manadenial etc. )

[MGB]

i know, but in my opinion, terrible Design is not a reason to get a card banned. Also, it is a quite new( and in some way innovative) Designs. Yes, it limits interaction, but isn't that a big part of legacy (any hard and softlock, Combo, manadenial etc. )

The problem lies in decreased interaction during combat. It turns the format into Combo, TNN aggro, and anti-TNN aggro. It makes the game less rich, less diverse, and less interesting.

There is very little that TNN actually adds to the format. It just makes existing tier 1 decks like Stoneblade and Delver even harder to deal with unless you're playing combo. Not everyone wants to play TNN.dec OR Combo.

And again, it's just *insanely* bad design. The kind of design that would be laughed out of R&D even 10 years ago. There's a reason stuff like this was traditionally put in green and/or only given hexproof (and not the whole pro:player unockability).

[mini1337s]

The problem lies in decreased interaction during combat. It turns the format into Combo, TNN aggro, and anti-TNN aggro. It makes the game less rich, less diverse, and less interesting.

There is very little that TNN actually adds to the format. It just makes existing tier 1 decks like Stoneblade and Delver even harder to deal with unless you're playing combo. Not everyone wants to play TNN.dec OR Combo.

And again, it's just *insanely* bad design. The kind of design that would be laughed out of R&D even 10 years ago. There's a reason stuff like this was traditionally put in green and/or only given hexproof (and not the whole pro:player unockability).

Glad to see that TNN invalidated Control

Aside from Death and Taxes, what creature based decks that can't roll over it or deal with it (albeit with some minor changes). With the exception of red, there are answers in every color, most of which are commonly played already. You can fight it on the stack AND when it has resolved.

If you can't deal with Turn 3 TNN, how in fuck's name are you dealing with Turn 3 Hasty Emrakul?

[MGB]

Glad to see that TNN invalidated Control

Aside from Death and Taxes, what creature based decks that can't roll over it or deal with it (albeit with some minor changes). With the exception of red, there are answers in every color, most of which are commonly played already. You can fight it on the stack AND when it has resolved.

If you can't deal with Turn 3 TNN, how in fuck's name are you dealing with Turn 3 Hasty Emrakul?

Turn emrakul is only possible through a combo. It means only a certain type of deck can do this and exposes itself to everything that is good vs combo,and has all the downfalls of combo as well. AND there are ways to target Emrakul with non-instants like Karakas, ORing, Jace etc.

Any blue deck can play TNN for 1uu without difficulty and have an unstoppable wincon vs opposing fair aggro decks.

[Dice_Box]

I think that, if the comments are true, he was made for Commander. Let him stay there where he has answers. His design limits answers in a duel and thus I feel he should be played where he was "designed" to be.

[(nameless one)]

I would like to see it banned so I wouldn't have to change my sideboard....

/sarcasm

[Zilla]

"Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone" and "Should True-Name Nemesis be banned" are two different questions, to which the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively.

[The Treefolk Master]

"Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone" and "Should True-Name Nemesis be banned" are two different questions, to which the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively.

Agreed. I didn't notice the question on the poll was different than the thread's title until I had already voted.

[Erdvermampfa]

Please stop being so pedantic and don't pretend that you wouldn't get the question.

[Megadeus]

"Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone" and "Should True-Name Nemesis be banned" are two different questions, to which the answers are "yes" and "no" respectively.

This.

[nedleeds]

I wouldn't care about him if I could lock him under Stasis and kill his owner with a Black Vise. True Name would seem downright neighborly.

[Megadeus]

He's dumb, annoying, and uninteractive, but not broken.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's weird and dumb that Legacy players pretend that, "Should this card not exist" and "Should this card be banned" are significantly different questions.

If a card actively makes the format worse for existing, why wouldn't you ban it?

[nedleeds]

Because worse is really subjective. I don't think Black Vise makes the format worse, I don't think Survival makes the format worse. Others probably do. I'd rather unban cards than ban more cards. Unbanning cards that require building decks around them like Black Vise, Earthcraft, Survival and maybe Dragon is interesting. Mental Mistep is not interesting, you simply play 4 unless you are playing Chalice on 1. TNN isn't particularly interesting but it isn't any more powerful than some other creatures like Stoneforge, Delver, Clique and Tarmogoyf.

[Lemnear]

TNN is only the next Tarmogoyf to make a lot of other previous viable options obsolete. Maybe it does the same to Tarmogoyf what Goofy did to werebear and psychatog

[Barook]

The Gentleman's Agreement

When we saw the Grand Prix–Madrid finals decks, a few of us got worried, jumped onto Magic Online, and started playing some Legacy with them. We were terrified by what we found. Although we were playing in the tournament practice room, which is hardly the same thing as a real tournament environment, we weren't losing very many matches with either Reanimator or Ad Nauseam. In my case, I don't recall losing any matches with either deck outside of a misclick while I was still learning the Ad Nauseam deck. The decks were just so strong that opponents not set up in their maindecks or that didn't sideboard heavily against us couldn't compete.

Our research took another turn, however, when we investigated how Legacy is played in the real world. We discovered something rather interesting, and that is that Mystical Tutor decks were quite rare at Legacy tournaments that did not have tons of money on the line. At Grand Prix and other cash tournaments, people were happy to bust out their Mystical Tutorss. However, in the comfort of their home stores they seemed to prefer doing other things that were more fun, if perhaps less powerful. This struck me as being a sort of gentleman's agreement; everyone knew what sick decks were out there, but they chose not to play them.

Having played with the Mystical Tutor decks, we knew what the alternative was. In order to stop a Mystical Tutor deck, people needed to either play decks full of things like Stifle, Daze, and Force of Will, or sideboard heavily into graveyard hate and cards like Mindbreak Trap. For Reanimator, that wasn't even a big deal sometimes, as it could sideboard Pithing Needles; and Ad Nauseam Tendrils could go through Mindbreak Trap and Force of Will fairly easily with a few well-placed Duresses or Thoughtseizes. After sideboarding, the games were all about the hate cards, which struck us as being a little unhealthy. Worse, Mystical Tutor often allowed these decks to heap resiliency on the hate at very little cost by adding only a single card like Show and Tell or Wipe Away—and they could Mystical Tutor for them.

The fascinating thing about the aforementioned agreement is that it seemed that the people who were part of the gentleman's agreement were having more fun than the people who weren't. Whether or not they were aware that there was anything special going on, they were experiencing a better variety of decks and a higher quantity of recognizable baseline Magic gameplay—even though they were still playing with nearly every Magic card that has been printed. We saw the world they had made, and we liked it. We liked it so much more than the competitive world that had Mystical Tutor decks that we decided to give that happier world to everyone.

I know how ridiculous people called the Gentleman's Agreement, yet here we are, screaming for the same thing which has been laughed at before.

The baseline is:

- TNN forces the format into a) Combo b) TNN decks and c) Anti-TNN decks that require either counters, discard or very narrow answers.
- TNN sucks the fun out of the format and we'd be all better off without it in the format.

[lordofthepit]

It's weird and dumb that Legacy players pretend that, "Should this card not exist" and "Should this card be banned" are significantly different questions.

If a card actively makes the format worse for existing, why wouldn't you ban it?

Because there are negative consequences associated with banning cards with respect to consumer confidence in the format and in Magic products.

[Dzra]

Yeah, I really dislike the card and wish it had never been conceived (or at least that they had made it an ETB trigger that targets the player or something that could be interacted with on at least a few points). However... it's here now in all of its uninteractive glory, so let's just see what happens. I'd say that by the time GP Paris is done, we should have a better idea of how the format adjusts.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because there are negative consequences associated with banning cards with respect to consumer confidence in the format and in Magic products.

Yeah, that's bullshit.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Because worse is really subjective.

Life is hard.

I don't think Black Vise makes the format worse, I don't think Survival makes the format worse. Others probably do. I'd rather unban cards than ban more cards. Unbanning cards that require building decks around them like Black Vise, Earthcraft, Survival and maybe Dragon is interesting. Mental Mistep is not interesting, you simply play 4 unless you are playing Chalice on 1. TNN isn't particularly interesting but it isn't any more powerful than some other creatures like Stoneforge, Delver, Clique and Tarmogoyf.

This isn't a banning philosophy, it is a pastiche of unrelated opinions.