Thought we should get a bit of discussion around the latest piece of hatebear nonsense going on, so how are people feeling about this?
Well to use Nix as precedent, your second point isn't looking healthy:
Nix doesn’t check whether a spell’s mana cost is 0. Rather, it checks how much mana was actually spent to cast it. It can counter a spell with mana cost 0 (such as Slaughter Pact), a spell cast via an alternative nonmana cost (such as Allosaurus Rider) or alternative cost of 0 (such as Basking Rootwalla), a spell whose cost to cast it was reduced to 0 (such as Frogmite), a spell cast without paying its cost due to an effect (such as suspend or Mindleech Mass’s ability), or a copy of a spell, among other possibilities. It will not counter a spell that had an additional or alternative mana cost paid to cast it, regardless of that spell’s converted mana cost (such as a face-down spell cast with morph, or an Ornithopter cast while Trinisphere is on the battlefield, for example).
After sleeping on it and rereading it today, it's not that spooky. It doesn't have flash so we can play our turn without a new surprise. It doesn't stop us from digging and sculpting and posturing like Thalia does. Makes Massacre a bad answer but Abrupt Decay or Echoing Truth or Abrade work just fine. Chalice on 1 hurts us more than Chalice on 0, and that's the only real effect we care about.
I'm pretty sure the "no mana" phrase on Lavinia is a blanket for Petals, Forces, Summoner's Pacts, and Ancestral Visions.
Well, the good news is that we can still cast 0-costed stuff to build Storm count against it, it non-bos with Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst (we can cast 0-cmc spells for 1), and it's still just as vulnerable to our disruption as any of the other shenanigan-bearing bears.
Bad news is that if we don't hit four lands, it's a hard lock. Also, unlike other hate-bears (except Leo), Lavinia pitches to Force. I'm not too worried about seeing it from most decks, but maybe the Stoneblade matchup will become a real contest again. I can't really see a place for it in Miracles, though it might start to show up as a left-field sideboard card.
In all honesty, I'm more worried about what the card says about the state of game design than I am about what it'll actually do in Legacy. It's like they decided to give new, mediocre toys to DTBs just so they can keep suppressing the prophesied Storm-pocalypse, which, of course, isn't happening anyway. Not really sure what they were planning for the card if they were considering Legacy, though I'd be surprised if they were.
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That card will be sick in Vintage, and seem to upset the EDH Crowd. Probably not targeting neither storm nor legacy.
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Maybe out of landstill? Kambal seems better in the paradoxical mirrors, although this card is easier on the mana.
But I think you're right. It doesn't hit legacy in any meaningful way. At least on the surface. From our perspective, I think it appears quite beatable just by sculpting a game plan around it (ie make land drops and take rits over artifact mana). It doesn't appear to hamper any other combo decks as well to any significant margin and is easy to answer.
I guess I'm probably going to have to see a million copies of it on MTGO of I play at all over the next few weeks, which will be annoying, but will hopefully subside.
I guess the thing I dislike here is that it's one sided. If you're going to print prison effects, at least have it symmetrical and make deck building a little more interesting if you want to abuse the effectIt's like they decided to give new, mediocre toys to DTBs just so they can keep suppressing the prophesied Storm-pocalypse, which, of course, isn't happening anyway
So it seems like everyone has moved back off of the 2 Petition build? I'm still liking my 2 Petition 1 RoF 1 PiF build but if I'm not doing myself any favors running that combination I'd like to know.
"If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."
The main thing is that Past in Flames is just spectacular against countermagic. Not sure how the loss of Probe has impacted Petition strategies, but we've probably lost much of the speed advantage we had before, so I'd favor greater resilience over a better chance to T1–2 people.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Surfinbird19 is still on 2 petitions, so I'd suggest that any list he's playing consistently is likely to give good results. He's not playing rain of filth, although I don't see any issue running it so long as there's 8 discard in the 75 (I may be a little too high on rain of filth, it's actually just one of my favourite cards and I'll play it whenever I can)
Most of us are just on 2 PiF because it's far more busted than petition and beats counter magic handily. Plus also happens to be great against all the hymn decks
To be fair, it can be hard to t1-t2 people with petition anyway just based around the restrictions it places on both your graveyard and your mana
I mean, I feel like 2 DP feels more broken than 2 PiF and makes killing early easier since it makes your Ad Naus better and functions better when you have redundant tutors. I turn 1'd D&T this week because it let me tutor for an LED to net +1 mana and turn on my Infernal.
Maybe I'm just being pig headed. I don't currently have the 8th discard in the deck so that's probably something I need to add.
Also I haven't seen any talk about this list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1501692#paper
Personal Tutor is a very interesting inclusion.
"If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."
rule #1 in mtg deckbuilding. japanese can do whatever they want.
-rob
Hey all. Took down Channel Fireball's 108 Player Legacy 4k last weekend. Played this list:
15 Lands:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
45 Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
2 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
SB:
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hurkyl’s Recall
3 Echoing Truth
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
I haven't really been playing as much Legacy as I would like because there are so many Modern GPs coming up and I would like to spike them. Thanks to Rodrigo for the list and for all the Storm grinders for testing when I haven't been and sharing their lists with me.
Here were my pairings:
R1: 2-0 Shadow 1-0
R2: 2-0 Grixis Tezzerator 2-0
R3: 2-0 BUG Nic Fit 3-0
R4: 1-2 Sneak and Show 3-1
R5: 2-1 Humans 4-1
R6: 2-0 Grixis Control 5-1
R7: 0-0-3 ID with friend 5-1-1
7th seed in top 8
QF: 2-0 Merfolk 6-1-1
SF: 2-0 Lands 7-1-1
F: 2-0 Sneak and Show (same player from swiss). 8-1-1
The quarters and finals are on camera on Channel Fireball's twitch.
Overall I am 70-11 in competitive paper events since DRS and Probe got banned.
12-0 GP Sacramento sides (if you count these)
7-2 Channel Fireball 2k (2nd)
12-3 GP Richmond
5-0 Eternal Weekend Trial
12-1 Eternal Weekend Main Event (2nd)
14-4 SCG Vegas (1st)
8-1 Channel Fireball 4k (1st)
Storm is great and the community is great.
What're you playing in modern since I know you don't like storm in that format?
"If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."
In my experience, if you're looking to optimize Ad Nauseam the best piece of business to have in doubles is actually Tendrils. I'm with you, though; Petition is the most flexible business spell we have. It's just that you're forced to go all in if you're casting a tutor (with Infernal, because you probs need to crack a Diamond; with Petition, because if your graveyard gets hit or it gets countered, you're down five mana; N.B.: that's also virtually true of Past in Flames). Past in Flames, though it's been undercut by the banning of Probe, both lets you dig using expended cantrips (usually enough to find a win) and gives you resilience against countermagic and, to an extent, Surgical Extraction.
I still run a Petition, but I've got to confess that I'd probably cut it first for something else.
If double-Petition is still doing everything you want it to, then by all means, stick with it. I just like the resilience of a second Past in Flames, and requiring multiple rituals is a bigger hurdle these days than I'd initially thought it was when I first started playing Petition. (This speaks to what Fangzie said before.) The only reason I haven't switched it for a maindeck Empty the Warrens is that we're not so good at making more than ten gobbos.
I'm only on seven discards main, and for the most part, it feels fine. Got an eighth one in my 'board. I love my Rain of Filth.
I don't think I'd run Personal Tutor with Probe gone from the format. With that said, I've been giving the eye to Mission Briefing a bit lately.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
How does everyone feel about the main deck empty? It's been nice to have the option to just make goblins. I cut the second PIF for it, but am debating cutting ad naus. That card is just so, so bad without chrome mox (ew).
In my experience, making more than ten goblins on turn 1 is relatively uncommon. I don't think that's something on which we can rely to win us the game except against specific decks that are known to be weak against a horde (Eldrazi, Death's Shadow).
I might be in the minority, but I think Ad Nauseam is great. And even if it isn't, it's our only reliable way to turn one or two cards into 10.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
This, asymmetric hatebears are really dumb imo, the symmetric aspect is provoking deckbuilding and both tactical and strategic concessions, the present line is just easy answers and hosers
Personal tutor was a joke in 2010 and I cant see why it wouldnt be today
MD EtW - imo it's so good I based my build around it, rarely missing AdN it's a terrible hit or miss card
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