[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Megadeus]

I go with option C generally though I have debated a burning wish or two just because I kind of want the "fifth" tutor and I'm not a fan of Grim.

[Sloshthedark]

Grim Tutor - like seriously?? just have it BBed

Some impressions i have had during the tournament:

- I really really like the 2 Past in Flames Build. It feels so good to execute the combo while having Past in Flames in your hand because it gives you an additional backup in case something gets countered.

-I'm not 100% sold on Top main. There are matchup where the card really shines (Heavy discard decks) while it sucks in others. I boarded it out too often so I might cut it.

- Ad Nauseam is such a bad card ! I know it's somewhat ironical because I was so confident about the 2 Ad Nauseam list during spring 2014. I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time. Especially with only 3 Lotus Petals It's maybe time to say goodbye to my old friend.

-If i cut Ad Nauseam entirely from my 75 there is still the need for a very fast engine against decks like Elves/Death&Taxes/Burn/Mirror/Combodecks ingeneral. Maybe it's time to welcome back an card which got an reprint last year: I'm talking about Ill-Gotten Gains.

-3 Empty the Warren are Nuts against Miracle

-Still try to fit in a bayou in the 75...


That's about it. Tell me what you think or your experience with Ill-Gotten Gains

Congrats! Finaly convinced by the power of the 2 Pif/Etw Build? ;)

I'm glad you tried SB EtW, I wasn't sure how good it might be... regarding Igg I'd like to belive and play it but don't think it's a good card anymore, also uses graveyard, very bad in opening hand and only improves your deck i marginal situations... MU like Elves is exactly why AdN is useful (and Hymn decks now), that was my only reason to play it at all like a year ago, while not playing AdN at all I lost only 1 mirrormatch in that period and that should be the MU you want it most of all combo

[Togores]

How does the deck work vs turn 1 death rite shaman? Or if the opponent plays rest in pieces? Beimg allmoat all in on a graveyard deck dosnt seems too cool for me. i know pif is always a better kill. But...

@kai and slosh

[Keller Dover]

Ad Nauseam is not a safe kill. As i wrote before, I played this card 3 times in total from approximately 16-18 lifepoints. I had to pass the turn 2 times and i killed myself one time.

Are you kidding me? What kind of a sample size is that? Removing thoroughly tested and crucial parts from the deck and claiming Ad Nauseam "is not a safe kill" just because you are salty over three fizzled Ad Nauseams seems straight up bad to me, to put it nicely.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Are you kidding me? What kind of a sample size is that? Removing thoroughly tested and crucial parts from the deck and claiming Ad Nauseam "is not a safe kill" just because you are salty over three fizzled Ad Nauseams seems straight up bad to me, to put it nicely.

For what it's worth, I removed Ad Nauseam from the main after a couple hundred hours of testing and have put up solid tournament results with the deck since I did that.

I think Ad Nauseam is a great SB tool though, and I would not cut it from my SB. When you are boarding it in against decks like Miracles, you don't necessarily need to go all-in on winning on the spot, and if you are killing yourself post-SB against those types of decks, you are probably not playing the card entirely correctly.

[IlCannone]

@Keller Dover: I think he just referred to the tournament he was reporting from. I guess he made more than 3 Ad Nauseam's in his life that fizzled ;)

I just can't convince myself to cut the card from the maindeck. It just enables some random wins, and I want to keep the chance of having that, because I think it is part of what makes this deck so strong and also feared, as you can sometimes switch gears as you wish.

The times where Ad Nauseam fizzled from 18 or 16 have not been much. But i keep my CC's in main low by just playing 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 1 AdN so I dont flip many huge spells. It also depends a lot what cards you use to enable the AdN and the floating mana of course. Turn 1 AdN with 2 rituals or even some petals already used to cast AdN with 0 floating is a bit of a risk for sure.

[sawatarix]

Here are the Top 16 Decklists from the 166 Man GPT in Tokyo, so you get an idea of what decks are popular here:

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/search...8B%E5%B1%8BGPT

This also makes me think about changing some sideboard slots...

[Sloshthedark]

@kai and slosh

in order of appearence: EtW, PiF through, Natural chain, Natural storm/Double ToA (for me)... and yes a start of USea+DRS is very bad, actually it's always very bad AdN or not

I've played a SB Confidant build w Ad Nauseam main few times in last month and cast Ad Nauseam once - because it was in my hand G1 and killed myself from 20, B floating... usualy even if I board in AdN I don't cast it

For what it's worth, I removed Ad Nauseam from the main after a couple hundred hours of testing and have put up solid tournament results with the deck since I did that.

I think Ad Nauseam is a great SB tool though, and I would not cut it from my SB. When you are boarding it in against decks like Miracles, you don't necessarily need to go all-in on winning on the spot, and if you are killing yourself post-SB against those types of decks, you are probably not playing the card entirely correctly.

this

[Lemnear]

@Keller Dover: I think he just referred to the tournament he was reporting from. I guess he made more than 3 Ad Nauseam's in his life that fizzled ;)

I just can't convince myself to cut the card from the maindeck. It just enables some random wins, and I want to keep the chance of having that, because I think it is part of what makes this deck so strong and also feared, as you can sometimes switch gears as you wish.

The times where Ad Nauseam fizzled from 18 or 16 have not been much. But i keep my CC's in main low by just playing 1 PiF, 1 Tendrils, 1 AdN so I dont flip many huge spells. It also depends a lot what cards you use to enable the AdN and the floating mana of course. Turn 1 AdN with 2 rituals or even some petals already used to cast AdN with 0 floating is a bit of a risk for sure.

AN w/o at least 2 mana floating is a pain in the Ass in this deck due to the higher average cmc, less initial mana available and the need to find either ToA or IT + LED off AN. In any other case it's "just" a draw-spell, you don't really need because PIF can create cardadvantage as well especially if you run two and can use of for value-plays.

The real advantage of playing w/o AN is that you no longer have to give a fuck about cmc postboard. You can board Decays and Massacres without any fear of harming your engines. If you want to maintain a quick "I win" burst play in the Maindeck, you can include a single EtW. I hope I don't have to mention how much control and disruption you gain by simply being able to flashback Massacres/Decays/Discard/EtW in certain situations. AN is only better than EtW in combo matchups.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Ad Nauseam with no mana floating is about 80% to win the game on the spot if you have 16 life or more. Chrome Mox, Rain of Filth and a second Tendrils each increase this by a couple percentage points. In fact, a list with two Ad Nauseams and one Mox produces better Ad Nauseams than a list with only one Ad Nauseam and two Preordains in those slots. Sample size is ~500 games.

[Tvox]

Ad Nauseam with no mana floating is about 80% to win the game on the spot if you have 16 life or more. Chrome Mox, Rain of Filth and a second Tendrils each increase this by a couple percentage points. In fact, a list with two Ad Nauseams and one Mox produces better Ad Nauseams than a list with only one Ad Nauseam and two Preordains in those slots. Sample size is ~500 games.

You wouldn't happen to have more exact statistics on this or information on where it can be located? I'd really appreciate the read and will probably be able to compose a spreadsheet if there's none currently.

[Jonathan Alexander]

What I did was pretty much goldfish Ad Nauseams with certain sets of cards still left in the deck. The assumption was generally that it was turn two, I had two lands on board and was on seventeen life. I think I worked under the assumption Ad Nauseam was the fourth spell, but not sure on that. I didn't take enough notes for these to be really useful, as my goal was just to compare different setups and not to find the actual numbers. I'm not even sure if I still have my notes, but I might go back to doing these as I have lots of free time right now.

[Mackan]

Thanks for the videos Nevilshute. I just finished the 1 hour deck tech and will start with the matches now. Keep up the good work! /Truckis

[Ghiwo]

All of you playing with the second PIF are starting to get me interested! So let me just ask some things. I have to say that you are talking with a guy who never played 2 PIFs in legacy, the only experience I have with more than one in modern, with UR storm. What are the main advantages of playing it, other than the obvious "you can fight better through counters"? How many blind PIFs do you usually attempt? I mean without any tutor or tendrils in hand or grave. And, does it affect your average turn of going off?
Thanks to who wants to reply me!

About Ad Nauseam, I know since a lot of time that AN is a bad card, as much as I believe all of you know. But I think it is a pain I have to accept, in order to have the card in the few situations where it's good. The problem with it, as you know,is that when you want it to be your "go-to engine" for the kill, you are usually in a situation where it is more likely to fail. Most of the times you want it on turn 1 or 2, otherwise you can afford a PIF loop or a tutor chain kill. In these situation, you will almost always have no land drop available, no mana floating, or, in the best scenarios, B floating. With no mana floating you have to flip BOTH lotus petal and dark ritual, most of the times having used at least a ritual (and often also a petal) just to get to the 7 mana AN requires. That's really hard without any mox or other 1 mana ritual. Also you need Tutor + LED or ToA, just like Lemnear said.

That said, my philosophy is trying to avoid using it as much as I can. Usually vs. decks like Miracles, DeathBlade, and controls in general in becomes an EOT draw spell in combination with Cabal Ritual. Also, I play it from my hand if I have a Ritual that produces 5 blacks, a decent amount of life but not another business spell in my hand. When I have to use it as a kill I will do it only if it's strictly necessary. Just an example: a week ago I was playing a match vs. Lands, g3 and I was on the play. I mulligan to 6 and open a hand with land, probe, tutor, led, ritual, petal. I didn't like the idea of going turn 1 AN with no mana floating and having to flip both petal and dark rit. So I played probe, to see if I really needed to go off turn 1, even if I lost 2 life I thought it was worth it. I saw a hand with no action, I drew a land from probe, played one and just passed the turn. I thought at least turn 2 I can AN with B floating. Turn 2 I drew another dark ritual, and won easily with a PIF loop. Maybe I played bad, but I would play again like this a hundred times in a row, I don't trust AN with no mana no land drop in this deck.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Drawing Past in Flames makes drawing Tendrils better.
More copies of Past in Flames also make countermagic worse against you. Not only because it has to be countered twice but also because you don't rely on Infernal Tutor as much.
Cantrip Past in Flames only happen when you're forced to go off or can off again next turn in case you whiff on finding Tendrils.
Not having Ad Nauseam in your deck means you don't have to care about the average converted mana cost of your deck.

The only reason not to go for the turn one Ad Nauseam against Lands is if they're guaranteed not to have anything next turn, but they might draw into Chalice, Surgical Extraction or Mindbreak Trap. With Ad Nauseam, worst case you draw loads of cards and kill them next turn.

Ad Nauseam is never 100% to win, but often Past in Flames isn't either. I've had games where going for Ad Nauseam was preferable to going for Past in Flames because of unknown cards in my opponents' hands. There are plenty of matchups where Past in Flames is enough, but there are also a couple where you really want to have Ad Nauseam. Elves and Sneak & Show come to mind for example. I also board out the second copy of Past in Flames against Miracles and UWR Delver without bringing in Ad Nauseam when I'm on the 3 Tendrils plan, which I usually am.

Feel free to ask more specific questions, I've been playing multiple copies of Past in Flames ever since it first came out, so chances are I'll be able to answer them.

[Sloshthedark]

All of you playing with the second PIF are starting to get me interested! So let me just ask some things. I have to say that you are talking with a guy who never played 2 PIFs in legacy, the only experience I have with more than one in modern, with UR storm. What are the main advantages of playing it, other than the obvious "you can fight better through counters"? How many blind PIFs do you usually attempt? I mean without any tutor or tendrils in hand or grave. And, does it affect your average turn of going off?
Thanks to who wants to reply me!

About Ad Nauseam, I know since a lot of time that AN is a bad card, as much as I believe all of you know. But I think it is a pain I have to accept, in order to have the card in the few situations where it's good. The problem with it, as you know,is that when you want it to be your "go-to engine" for the kill, you are usually in a situation where it is more likely to fail. Most of the times you want it on turn 1 or 2, otherwise you can afford a PIF loop or a tutor chain kill. In these situation, you will almost always have no land drop available, no mana floating, or, in the best scenarios, B floating. With no mana floating you have to flip BOTH lotus petal and dark ritual, most of the times having used at least a ritual (and often also a petal) just to get to the 7 mana AN requires. That's really hard without any mox or other 1 mana ritual. Also you need Tutor + LED or ToA, just like Lemnear said.

That said, my philosophy is trying to avoid using it as much as I can. Usually vs. decks like Miracles, DeathBlade, and controls in general in becomes an EOT draw spell in combination with Cabal Ritual. Also, I play it from my hand if I have a Ritual that produces 5 blacks, a decent amount of life but not another business spell in my hand. When I have to use it as a kill I will do it only if it's strictly necessary. Just an example: a week ago I was playing a match vs. Lands, g3 and I was on the play. I mulligan to 6 and open a hand with land, probe, tutor, led, ritual, petal. I didn't like the idea of going turn 1 AN with no mana floating and having to flip both petal and dark rit. So I played probe, to see if I really needed to go off turn 1, even if I lost 2 life I thought it was worth it. I saw a hand with no action, I drew a land from probe, played one and just passed the turn. I thought at least turn 2 I can AN with B floating. Turn 2 I drew another dark ritual, and won easily with a PIF loop. Maybe I played bad, but I would play again like this a hundred times in a row, I don't trust AN with no mana no land drop in this deck.

Reasons - Consistency, speed, you develop certain feeling when it is enough to go blind Pif - It feels a bit "Ad Nauseam" but you're managing odds in the process, I goldfished some situations a lot like Jona and I'm fairly aggresive with these at 2 ToA... depends on the MU obv. it's always managing the odds and finding the best spot to win.. btw. first time you get PiF DRSed away just to grab another one is sweet...

for me Ad Nauseam got cast most because it was already in hand and sometimes leads into poor plays trying to cast it

question is whether you get better cards than you already have with the Ad Nauseam, depending on opps hand I'd have played LED - go and went for Ad Nauseam next turn

[Timmy101]

Those of you running 2 PiF also run 2 Tendrils?
And I'm assuming if the above is true, then AdN is relegated to the sideboard?
Additionally, I assume those running 2 PiF also run a 2nd red land in the main, either volcanic x2 or volc/badlands?

Thanks for the help.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think most people run 2 Past in Flames 1 Tendrils 1 Empty the Warrens with Empty doing stand-in for Ad Nauseam. Personally, I like 3 Tendrils when running 2 Past in Flames, although that's not very common overall.
The second red land is not really needed in my opinion. I prefer running two green sources in my 75, although that's probably not necessary anymore either with UWR Delver on the decline. Basically, you have room for three lands that produce either red or green and you have to consider which colour you are more likely to expose to Wasteland. Further, Lotus Petals and Lion's Eye Diamonds do produce red mana for Past in Flames. Using them in your combo turn is alright, but having to use a Petal to cast an Abrupt Decay against UWR Delver can really hurt.

Your sideboard or metagame might dictate the use of two red sources though, in which case I suggest running 2 Volcanics and 1 Bayou. This way, you are least likely to end up with lands that essentially only tap for colourless during your combo turn.

[sawatarix]

interesting approach, 2 Volcanics+1 Bayou instead of Volcanic Idland+Tropical Island+Badlands

have to give it a try.
Tropical Island has always been a terrible land among all the others because it's almost always Island#2

So i supppse this could be like the new staple manabase

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire (or 4th Misty)

[owerbart]

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(