I've noticed a trend of people including an extra Tendrils of Agony or two in the board, when do you bring these in and what is the purpose? Also I've also noticed people going back to City of Solitude, any reason?
They're good against Miracles and the like - basically slow decks that rely on countermagic to stop you. A single counterspell that isn't Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap can't do much against a natural Tendrils (and you can buy time with a combo twice style approach because of their slow clock).Originally Posted by skyout
Was Karakas played in certain SB's primarily for big fatties like Grisel or annoying little guys like Thalia/Teeg? Or the versatility of the card is only what made it remotely playable in the first place?
I only picked up Storm after Karakas appears to have stopped finding its way into sideboards, but as I understand it, it was for both the things you mentioned (primarily the first one, because Aether Vial makes bouncing Thalia a bad call. It's worth pointing out that Karakas is excellent against Ruric Thar).
My understanding was also that it served as a white mana source when Silence was still a part of the AnT board-plan.
The lack of Silence in newer lists and the flexibility of cards like Chain of Vapor seem to have obsoleted the Karakas plan, but there might be more to it than that. Anybody else have any input?
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If you are wondering, why are you playing the 2nd Pif in the first place? .. reading the question multiple times I understand you copied some list...
advice 1 - play the list where you do not need to ask yourself whether to bring A or B because you have no idea why you have it in your list and play cards you know have a purpose in MUs/situations instead
advice 2 - ask yourself whether the fx and situation in the games you actually play would be different (better) if card X was Y or card Z would help you in solving some problems...
...then you'd learn that of course in some situations ToA totaly screw you, on the other hand it's not 2010, in many more situation, you can win just and only because of it's presence if you play to it, making the loop cheaper or ignoring counterspells, the additional difficulties should be made up by the upsides, if not, simple, play 1 proceed to advice 2...
I had the need to point out money should not be an issue with these guys, also highly unlikely but possible you could not access 4x misty from friends if you made a last minute decision, on the other hand do you make such change then...?
Miracles, tempo MUs - abusing uninteractivity of storm mechanic... also possible against taxing permanents to lower mana requirements
can't see the trend, all I know people tried it a year or so ago, also lately Caleb and therefore Cheon had it in some list, for what I can tell City of Solitude is more of a myth looking good on paper than an actual plan (what it probably is at 3 copies), I also tried it for a brief period of time in 2 copies but it never hit play or got destroyed instantly... I can't even recall seeing it hitting play more than once in my life but maybe someone else has more history with it...
historically was mainly addressing Thalia... some people hate it, I like it a lot and play it till today in some of the setups - against Teeg, Thalia, Iona, Ruric (isn't really played anymore), in that respect, S+T use is really accidental but makes sense if playing Needle ... it can be tutored for with PiF in hand often, bypasses counters and protections well... it's still better than CoV in my book
I can't remember the last time ANT had a chant/silence plan. Abrupt decay was printed way back in 2012 and pretty much invalidated white as a splash in ANT since we can cover all our bases with 4 colors. Karakas was/is used because it bounces all these annoying legendaries like Iona, griselbrand, thalia, and teeg. May not be best against griselbrand, but rather they have to draw immediately then so we can raw tendrils them or make them discard their countermagic then tendrils them. Also stalls the clocking. It also makes reanimator not a completely miserable matchup when you have karakas as a 2 or 3 of and draw it there. Bouncing thalia when vial is at 2 may suck, but there's still potential for you to combo off through thalia with the right pieces like say LED, dark rit, CRit, tutor allows you to combo off through a thalia that's attempting to get vialed in via going LED, they vial, you double or triple ritual, sure you can have that thalia, we'll just tutor for past in flames and kill you anyways since we had to pay extra for just 6-7 spells instead of 10 spells.
TL;DR: DnT and fatties for less than cost decks is really why karakas is/was played. Fatties for less than cost decks includes elves because they practically cheat at generating mana as much as we do and natural order for ruric thar is +1/+2 mana anyways.
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It is a mystery to me though why it wasn't adopted as a plan in the Mystical Tutor era when the literal worst MU was Reanimator, it's best creature was Iona which often even had to name U
Ofcourse I copied a list, as i pointed out i just build up the deck. Did you create the list you are playing from scratch? I guess you have to start with something.
Let me explain you better my situation, which applys to anyone that plays a decl with an unusual playstyle for the first time, I looked up some decks and decided making a brew of the most popular ones, lists that are made by people with much more experience than me. Then I go to a tournament and find the second pif underwhelming. Instead of thinking that its not as good and changing it for another card I come here and ask whats the correct way to play it(in each players opinion) because I might be playing it incorrectly or not taking full advantage of it. once I have played a couple hundred games i will be able to say: ok, i like the second pif or not. But now I am wondering, whats more correct, playing as business spells 1 Ad na. ,2 pif, 1 dark petition, 4 infernal tutor and 1ToA or following togores route and play 1 less business spell and play a sdt. If the answer is the second I wonder if it should be 1 pif-1DP or 2 pif. I am not looking for a definitive answer but for arguments on both sides. And thanks guys
A store close-ish to me has finally started to run regular legacy events so I actually have the chance to play some again. The issue I'm having trouble solving is that out of an average 25 players at least 5 of them are on burn, sometimes 6 or even 7. Each time I play against them they get eidolon in play G1 or they get stormed out and in G2/3 they have eidolon next to a set of mindbreak traps and I'm unsure what cards are worth siding against them. With this much burn in the room do you think it's worth running an echoing truth main in place of an ad nauseum just to avoid scooping to an eidolon G1 when you're almost certain to play against it at least twice in a night? In addition to that, would chill actually be worth it in the side? The meta is mostly burn, DnT, various delver decks, and fish with chalice in the side. Here's my default list for a reference, it's worth noting that I haven't played this storm list in this meta before.
//Artifact (9)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
//Instant (13)
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
//Sorcery (23)
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Dark Petition
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
//Land (15)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Massacre
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Tropical Island
I would definitely not sideboard chill in any deck, it's just too narrow of an answer. If your meta is that heavy in burn, the easiest fix would be to play 2 maindeck Tendrils and 1 more sideboard. It'll help your miracles matchup as well! If you're so worried about Mindbreak Trap from Burn, just blind name it on your combo turn before you go off or just check with Probe. Blind Therapy'ing Eidolon T2 (play) or T1 (draw) isnt a bad idea, either. Beware some Burn decks keep a Pyrostatic Pillar in the SB against Storm, so make sure you have at least one answer for it (Decay, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, K-grip).
Has anyone tested the Chrome Mox SB? I wonder how well it works. I assume it's brought in against decks with hate permanents and/or combo. Could be why Caleb has next to nothing against Death and Taxes. Edit: Unless he brings in Decay, which doesn't seem very good against Death and Taxes anyway.
Re: Eldritch Moon and Emrakul
I ran a 2 Chrome 1 Ad Nauseam sideboard back in the original Grinding Station. Makes Ad Nauseam better, allows you to go off earlier. Mox is massively underrated and even the first Mox makes a world of difference with Ad Nauseam. Not sure I'd like 3 copies as those guys had at some points, but 2 is definitely feasible. That being said, I have a new thing that I want to record some videos with within the next few weeks that I think does a very similar job better.
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in fact I kind of did... // yet my answer will be the same... there is nothing like more correct build, you'll find proponents of very different ideas in the forum, it's up to you what you like and expect ot face... the only way around it is to try out yourself different configs, mark the cards - see the difference... atm what seems to be the standard range is Scherer list on one side (xDP, 14lands, 2 islands, 1 Pif), Togores list on the other, most of the people playing something in between (1DP/EtW) anyway and minority branching out into other setups
in your example the argument are the cards themselves... by switching card you improve aspects of the deck to some extent... PIF - more resiliency towards discard, countermagic, cheaper loops, painful Ad Nauseam, drawing 2 might not be ideal, DP - better goldfish and T2 rate, terrible against taxing counters, painful Ad Nauseam, SDT - better longer games - 9 card hand, good against discard and counters, difficult to play... Preordain - higher velocity, great T1 play, low impact t3+...
I'm unexcited by DP, like SDT and play 2 Pif for years so I'd rather play the later...
if you expect such extreme no shame tuning the deck to it (which you probably should for a lgs if your goal is to win), I'd start replacing Duress with something that does discards Eidolon like 4th Therapy, replace Ad Nauseam with EtW and replace City of Solitude with something more impactful, depending what else you have there so the numbers are appropriate... I'd play a Hydroblast before any Chill
Calebs plan looks very weak to me, looks like too much TES exposure ;) ... Chrome Mox is the worst mana generator I can imagine in storm next to Land Grant so I'm definitely one of the under rating people... looking forward to Jonathan breaking my skepticism
...and Land Grant does not belog to his favourite cards, oh no.
I announce: It's going to be Mox Diamond, 14 lands.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
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This can not be stressed enough. One of the most important things about Storm to realise is that even those of us who have been playing the deck forever tend to disagree on very basic things like business setups. (At least Slosh and I have been playing Storm since INN came out, Jamie has been playing it even longer I think, same for Pascal, not sure about nevilshute and Rodrigo. Only Kai and Caleb have picked it up more recently.
When I will finally get around to updating The Storm Box, I will talk about this in more detail, but the number one thing about the different lists is that they all resolve around the different business setups. 4 Infernal Tutor, 1 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Past in Flames are set in stone, but the other 2-3 slots can be anything out of extra Tendrils, extra Past in Flames, Ad Nauseam, Dark Petition, Empty the Warrens and in very rare cases even a Burning Wish.
And in fact, I think what Slosh said here is true: We all arrived at our builds indepently. And I also think we all play the deck differently, at least to some degree. I have watched most of the other games play and for most of them, I have seen games I would have lost for taking different lines and games I would have won for taking different lines. Same goes for them watching me play.
You should really just straight up copy a list from someone who has a long history with Storm, play that deck a lot (like half a year or so), then you can start making changes to your liking.
I think the 2 Petition list is something completely different from what we're used to playing. It's a metagame consideration and it makes perfect sense in the US. It's also fairly one-dimensional, so it's much easier to pick up. Chrome Mox only makes sense with Ad Nauseam, it's usually very weak without it. It can randomly help with natural Storm chains, but that doesn't happen a lot (I think it happened once for me in ~3 years of playing with Mox).
Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com
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I have tried to run chrome mox specifically against D&T. When it works it's great. You know they will run 4 waste and 4 ports. So mana denial is big for them so when mox drops its great. But it can, and has been, be clunky. It's free to add to storm count but if you don't have the right card to imprint then it's a major draw back. But I agree that it's almost too much like TES.
Also If you want to play against so much burn there are quite a few things that u can do (playing hydrobast seems great but only reasonable at a 40% burn metagame).
Also to beat burn I would build a deck like:
4 therapy
2 pif
2 toa
1 etw
x Dp petition
x preordain (with dark petition you always have to play 2 at least and always over sdt)
0 sdt
15 lands or 14 but post sb 14 for sure. I usualy side in decay and side out island so my setup is like trop + swamp to caste everything and dont fall into price of progress.
sb
1 toa
1 nauseam (not for burn)
3-4 decay
2 chain of vapor (over echoing)
And if you fear trap just let like 2-3 duress in the deck after sb
more or less you should be able to win with this.
Some players have played thoughseize over duress here in the past. Idk if its good in the burn matchup But I think is better thasn duress, takes eidolon and at least saves you from 1 damage.
@Jonathan
I have played vintage TPS from 2004-2008 then I stopped playing until 2010, where I took storm as my deck. But they banned mistical tutor (3 months) and changed to belcher (4 months) and then sneak attack until like 1st half of 2014 where I started playing storm again and learing a lot of things that are important to have succes with the deck like when to play discard in each matchup (wich I think is like the most dificult matter when playing this deck).
I'd actually be very interested to hear how that goes. The thought, "I wish that Mox were a Diamond" went through my head a number of times when I was testing Chrome Mox on 14 lands.I announce: It's going to be Mox Diamond, 14 lands.
Regarding whether to run a Chrome Mox in the main/sideboard, I'm not that enthusiastic because we have to lose spells to get mileage out of it. Most of the times I cast it when I was testing it, I didn't imprint anything. I'm wondering whether the Diamond will fill the same role of powering out early combos and easing our AdNs. Every land in our hand requires a turn to hit the field, but the Diamond can put them to use early, and we won't need to sacrifice storm count to get mana out of it.
It's worth mentioning that both these artifacts can be played for free without discarding or imprinting anything.
All Spells Primer under construction: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e...Tl7utWpLo0/pub
PM me if you want to contribute!
Obviously I was just joking but it has seen some play in TinFins and I had some decent results with it in locals. (TinFins with 1 Mox Diamond)
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
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So I guess with the new Thalia we'll likely see a spike in DnT after Moon comes out. Whether that lasts or not I'm not sure, but being careful and not holding any fetches in hand once they reach 3 mana may be the way to go in the near future if your opponent leads on Turn 1 Plains.
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