[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Jaytron]

Jonathans list is geared for the long and grindy games like against Miracles where you can simply win by casting Storm spells like the 3 EtW and 3 ToA without being worried about FoW and Counterbalance as they can't handle 4cc spells or storm triggers (Flusterstoem aside). The second list is more a generic one with only 1 ToA/PIF in favor of more filtering (faster t.hold) for an unknown metagame which can contain D&T, combo and the like rather than plenty of slow, blue controldecks.

2x PIF has nothing to do with being beginner friendly, but with the number of business you need in the deck due to statistics. You can run Ad Nauseam, SDT, Dark Petition, etc instead, depending on the metagame, your build and such. Point is that 4 IT + 1 PIF only is often not enough to be found with your cantrips in a reasonable time, so pilots add additional business spells to increase the redundancy

Cool, thank you for the breakdown.

My local meta is pretty all over the place. Delver has been pretty pushed out.. maybe 2 pilots left on grixis.. Maybe 2~3 Miracles players (me being one of them, so one less if I play storm) this is in a room of 25+ There does seem to be a good amount of DnT any night..(3ish)

Here's the local meta from last week:
Lands
Enchantress X 3
Death & Taxes X 3
Infect X 3
Thought Lash
Tezzerator
Manaless Dredge
Miracles X 3
Eldrazi
Jund
Burn X 2
No Rug
Shardless Bug X 2
Ant
TinFins
Sneak & Show
Storm
Shardless Sultai
Grixis Delver X 2
NicFit
12 Post

So maybe the second list would be best for me here?

[Ronald Deuce]

Cool, thank you for the breakdown.

My local meta is pretty all over the place. Delver has been pretty pushed out.. maybe 2 pilots left on grixis.. Maybe 2~3 Miracles players (me being one of them, so one less if I play storm) this is in a room of 25+ There does seem to be a good amount of DnT any night..(3ish)

Here's the local meta from last week:
Lands
Enchantress X 3
Death & Taxes X 3
Infect X 3
Thought Lash
Tezzerator
Manaless Dredge
Miracles X 3
Eldrazi
Jund
Burn X 2
No Rug
Shardless Bug X 2
Ant
TinFins
Sneak & Show
Storm
Shardless Sultai
Grixis Delver X 2
NicFit
12 Post

So maybe the second list would be best for me here?

I don't think I would approach the question of which list to play based on the matchups in your meta as much as I would approach it based on what you're most worried about facing. For a lot of those matchups, there's not an appreciable difference in the playability of 2 PiF versus 2 Petition.

I switched from double-Petition, 1 PiF to double-PiF, 1 Petition because I found that I was having a terrible time against countermagic. There's no shortage of blue in the metagame you described, so if I were in your position I would probably run 2x PiF. The increased resilience is significant in a 2PiF list, but I don't think the average speed difference between 2PiF and 2Petition is all that big. I went 2-1 yesterday (lost to Mav after playing against it for the first time in ages), and in almost every game I won, I comboed on turn 2-3. Some of these were Empty the Warrens-based victories, and I think running an Empty for matchups in which it's good speeds up the 2PiF substantially. I recall getting diminishing returns (not the card) after a while when I ran Empty with double-Petition because the mana threshold is pretty high to Petition into Empty. It's not that it didn't help; it's that it didn't help as much as I would've liked or as much as I feel like it's helped in double-PiF. (N.B.: neither Petition nor PiF—nor Ad Nauseam, for what it's worth—goes all that well with Empty. So regardless of which configuration you run, Empty is always going to clash a bit with the rest of the business package. That's why I stopped maindecking it.)

In summary (hard as it is to phrase this concisely), it felt like though 2PiF is a bit slower than 2Petition, Empty speeds things along quite a bit after sideboarding, and I feel like Empty makes a bigger difference for the speed of a double-PiF list than it does for a double-Petition list against opponents who can't start the Batterskull Bro-Down or flood the board themselves.

Ad Nauseam also is excellent for speed regardless of the rest of your business configuration. Maybe sub-par in multi-Tendrils builds, but excellent in other setups.

For a while I was running a second Petition in my sideboard because I thought it would be useful to speed things along. I haven't run the second Petition in a while now, but I'm not too eager to bring it back. I think Tendrils is better in that slot, but you might give a second Petition in the 'board a try.

[rlesko]

If you had access to massacre in your SB, would you bring them in vs miracles? I feel like I want them but don't know what to cut. My current SB:

1 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
4 Abrupt decay
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top

This is really a multi part question- First being, if you can't go all out grinding station vs miracles, is it worth it at all? As you can see I only have 1 tendrils in my SB. Is going to two tendrils worth it, since usually grinding station is running 3-4? I'm wondering if I should just give up on that plan, and run more Xantid swarms instead. Additionally, I have 1 less grip than typical grinding station SBs (which further hinders my ability to grind miracles out).

Second question is, should you bring in the massacres vs Miracles? I ended up dying too fast to clique / snapcaster beats. Meddling mage is a concern of mine anyways, so I think massacre may be justifiable. I really loathe playing vs D&T, so I insist on having access to the 2 massacres

[ScottW]

I feel like I keep misplaying the Shardless BUG match-up and get too behind in G2&3. I'm wondering if I'm trying to grind too much. I know to expect to be discarded and need to play lands; and lean on Top and AdN, but I cannot seem to turn the corner. I'm wondering about my opening hands. I was keeping a number of cantrip dense hands and fetching basics to sculpt but maybe I should have been aiming for more business. However, since I bring in AdN for this match-up, I've been taking out a PIF andTendrils. Also, I've used my discard a number of times to takes their Hymn or other discard but maybe this is a mistake as well. Rather, I should hold discard until my combo turn even if there's a chance it will get discarded since it keeps other cards in hand.

[Jaytron]

I don't think I would approach the question of which list to play based on the matchups in your meta as much as I would approach it based on what you're most worried about facing. For a lot of those matchups, there's not an appreciable difference in the playability of 2 PiF versus 2 Petition.

I switched from double-Petition, 1 PiF to double-PiF, 1 Petition because I found that I was having a terrible time against countermagic. There's no shortage of blue in the metagame you described, so if I were in your position I would probably run 2x PiF. The increased resilience is significant in a 2PiF list, but I don't think the average speed difference between 2PiF and 2Petition is all that big. I went 2-1 yesterday (lost to Mav after playing against it for the first time in ages), and in almost every game I won, I comboed on turn 2-3. Some of these were Empty the Warrens-based victories, and I think running an Empty for matchups in which it's good speeds up the 2PiF substantially. I recall getting diminishing returns (not the card) after a while when I ran Empty with double-Petition because the mana threshold is pretty high to Petition into Empty. It's not that it didn't help; it's that it didn't help as much as I would've liked or as much as I feel like it's helped in double-PiF. (N.B.: neither Petition nor PiF—nor Ad Nauseam, for what it's worth—goes all that well with Empty. So regardless of which configuration you run, Empty is always going to clash a bit with the rest of the business package. That's why I stopped maindecking it.)

In summary (hard as it is to phrase this concisely), it felt like though 2PiF is a bit slower than 2Petition, Empty speeds things along quite a bit after sideboarding, and I feel like Empty makes a bigger difference for the speed of a double-PiF list than it does for a double-Petition list against opponents who can't start the Batterskull Bro-Down or flood the board themselves.

Ad Nauseam also is excellent for speed regardless of the rest of your business configuration. Maybe sub-par in multi-Tendrils builds, but excellent in other setups.

For a while I was running a second Petition in my sideboard because I thought it would be useful to speed things along. I haven't run the second Petition in a while now, but I'm not too eager to bring it back. I think Tendrils is better in that slot, but you might give a second Petition in the 'board a try.

Thank you for the input!

[Jonathan Alexander]

I feel like I keep misplaying the Shardless BUG match-up and get too behind in G2&3. I'm wondering if I'm trying to grind too much. I know to expect to be discarded and need to play lands; and lean on Top and AdN, but I cannot seem to turn the corner. I'm wondering about my opening hands. I was keeping a number of cantrip dense hands and fetching basics to sculpt but maybe I should have been aiming for more business. However, since I bring in AdN for this match-up, I've been taking out a PIF andTendrils. Also, I've used my discard a number of times to takes their Hymn or other discard but maybe this is a mistake as well. Rather, I should hold discard until my combo turn even if there's a chance it will get discarded since it keeps other cards in hand.

Stop treating them like a blue deck and just kill them. They're criminally low on countermagic.

[Togores]

Shardless is like a jund deck with 4 mindbreak trap ^^

[Jonathan Alexander]

Shardless is like a jund deck with 4 mindbreak trap ^^

I literally wrote that in one of my old articles, like 2013 or so (=

[ScottW]

Yes, I'm familiar with the composition of the deck. What about my questions: what to look for in opening hands, what to target with discard, etc. I can't remember ever losing game 1 so sideboard assumed.

Ex. I have 2 DR, LED, fetch, LP, and CT in hand and Island, Swamp in play. Should I discard them naming Hymn or FOW, or not in hopes of discarding them if I draw business next turn. Also, should I play out the LED?

[Togores]

I would not play the therapy, there is no 100% chance they play hymn. Also drs hurts more than hymn, you can recover from Hym. I would discard it if I see it for sure. Also I would wait to discard fow latter.

[Ronald Deuce]

This is really a multi part question- First being, if you can't go all out grinding station vs miracles, is it worth it at all? As you can see I only have 1 tendrils in my SB. Is going to two tendrils worth it, since usually grinding station is running 3-4? I'm wondering if I should just give up on that plan, and run more Xantid swarms instead. Additionally, I have 1 less grip than typical grinding station SBs (which further hinders my ability to grind miracles out).

I'm also interested in hearing input on this. People who run 2xPetition, what do you do against Miracles, and how (and how well) does it work? I'm closer to that type of list than I am to a 2-3 list, and I'm interested to know what strategy you all use.

Nevilshute, I really enjoyed your video on how to ride out Miracles, but the approach you demonstrated feels really counterintuitive. That's not a criticism; I'm just a bit reluctant to try such a drastically different plan, and I don't have a lot of opportunities to practice against the deck. Is there more you can say about the matchup and how to approach it? People on similar configurations, what do you think? If you weren't to board in so many cards against Miracles, what would be the first sideboard cards you'd exclude and why?

For other players running either more or fewer than 3 Tendrils in the 75, what approaches do you all take to fighting Miracles, and how well have the approaches worked?

Second question is, should you bring in the massacres vs Miracles? I ended up dying too fast to clique / snapcaster beats. Meddling mage is a concern of mine anyways, so I think massacre may be justifiable. I really loathe playing vs D&T, so I insist on having access to the 2 massacres

The problem with Miracles is the fact that they shut us out so thoroughly with CounterTop and [insert every sanctioned, useful blue card here], not the fact that they play creatures. I don't have a definitive answer to your question because I lack experience against Miracles, but I would ask myself whether running Massacre to kill their threats really solves the problem. Are you dying to their creatures, or are you dying to the opponent's preventing you from doing what you're trying to do?

Another way to think about it is this: Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf are the strongest attackers in the format. But are they the cards that worry you when you're playing Storm?

[Sloshthedark]

If you had access to massacre in your SB, would you bring them in vs miracles? I feel like I want them but don't know what to cut. My current SB:

1 Xantid Swarm
1 Krosan Grip
4 Abrupt decay
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sensei's Divining Top

This is really a multi part question- First being, if you can't go all out grinding station vs miracles, is it worth it at all? As you can see I only have 1 tendrils in my SB. Is going to two tendrils worth it, since usually grinding station is running 3-4? I'm wondering if I should just give up on that plan, and run more Xantid swarms instead. Additionally, I have 1 less grip than typical grinding station SBs (which further hinders my ability to grind miracles out).

Second question is, should you bring in the massacres vs Miracles? I ended up dying too fast to clique / snapcaster beats. Meddling mage is a concern of mine anyways, so I think massacre may be justifiable. I really loathe playing vs D&T, so I insist on having access to the 2 massacres

5G, 2 ToA, SDT, EtW - you have enough, XS is unplayable but 1 might actually be worth it especially G3

Massacre - no, unless you have a good reason to, Mentor is not a good reason (unless you spot heavy yolo habits of the opponent)

Yes, I'm familiar with the composition of the deck. What about my questions: what to look for in opening hands, what to target with discard, etc. I can't remember ever losing game 1 so sideboard assumed.

Ex. I have 2 DR, LED, fetch, LP, and CT in hand and Island, Swamp in play. Should I discard them naming Hymn or FOW, or not in hopes of discarding them if I draw business next turn. Also, should I play out the LED?

never Fow ... Hymn - depends on their T1 play - if DRS less inclined to play CT and more on playing out LED, but I'd go for Hymn majority of the time I think ... btw. I assume the fetch was freshly drawn otherwise it should be on the table/Swamp in hand

[nevilshute]

Batch of videos. Didn't run so hot but some good games nontheless. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...p2l7yXFXdHXyWJ

[rlesko]

The problem with Miracles is the fact that they shut us out so thoroughly with CounterTop and [insert every sanctioned, useful blue card here], not the fact that they play creatures. I don't have a definitive answer to your question because I lack experience against Miracles, but I would ask myself whether running Massacre to kill their threats really solves the problem. Are you dying to their creatures, or are you dying to the opponent's preventing you from doing what you're trying to do?

Another way to think about it is this: Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf are the strongest attackers in the format. But are they the cards that worry you when you're playing Storm?

Well, fortunately there are not many 4's in miracles, so your massacre should resolve (do they even leave Jace in post board?). I understand what you're trying to say, but also consider they can run hate bears like meddling mage which could ruin our day. I get the feeling our decays are very strained post board.

5G, 2 ToA, SDT, EtW - you have enough, XS is unplayable but 1 might actually be worth it especially G3

Massacre - no, unless you have a good reason to, Mentor is not a good reason (unless you spot heavy yolo habits of the opponent)

Would you consider meddling mage a good reason?

[JBentley]

As a relatively new ANT player, a friend just brought up a thought that I had a bad answer for. With people now trying krosan grips in sides what about sudden shocks over some things like massacre? Only neg I found right off was its a 2 drop. It takes out revoker and works against infect, which I feel is a bad match. Might just be me and how I play at times. Thoughts?

[rlesko]

As a relatively new ANT player, a friend just brought up a thought that I had a bad answer for. With people now trying krosan grips in sides what about sudden shocks over some things like massacre? Only neg I found right off was its a 2 drop. It takes out revoker and works against infect, which I feel is a bad match. Might just be me and how I play at times. Thoughts?

Well, it costs 2 mana vs being free. With a thalia out, thats 3 mana you need instead of 1. Also, it deals with only 1 of the problematic creatures. Multiple hate bears post board are quite common, against taxes canonist / thalia / revoker is a common line up you have to beat.

[Ronald Deuce]

Well, fortunately there are not many 4's in miracles, so your massacre should resolve (do they even leave Jace in post board?). I understand what you're trying to say, but also consider they can run hate bears like meddling mage which could ruin our day. I get the feeling our decays are very strained post board.

When I was running Massacre, I never felt like it would do much against Miracles primarily because they weren't fielding enough creatures at a time to make it worth my while over spot removal. Have you tried running Disfigure or Chain of Vapor in the matchup? I feel like the principal strength of Massacre is that it gets around Mother of Runes and protection-based shenanigans; the fact that it's a total massacre (:D) is largely not that important for most matchups/games in my experience, and that (combined with the existence of Gaddock Teeg) is the reason I'd rotated it out of my 'board. Very bad with Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens, too. It's a bit tough to CounterTop, but not to a degree that I think it makes the card better than other things in the matchup against Miracles.

One thing I will say in Massacre's favor is that it's entirely possible to end up staring down something disgusting like 2x Canonist, 1x Thalia, and it's the best/only answer to a lock like that. I had a similar problem last week against Mav or D&T (I don't remember), so I'm considering slotting one back into the 'board.

As a relatively new ANT player, a friend just brought up a thought that I had a bad answer for. With people now trying krosan grips in sides what about sudden shocks over some things like massacre? Only neg I found right off was its a 2 drop. It takes out revoker and works against infect, which I feel is a bad match. Might just be me and how I play at times. Thoughts?

I had the same idea several months ago. It's a really powerful card, but I feel like it's a bit slow and cumbersome at cmc2. That's not actually all that expensive, but a lot of the strategies against which Sudden Shock is useful have Thalia around to make it unplayable. The red mana in the cost is icky, too: I often find that I'm comboing off of disposable red sources—especially in matchups like D&T—and those are important to conserve. By all means give it a try, though! I really like the card a lot, and one of the things that attracted me to it in the first place is that, if you don't have other relevant targets, you can shoot the opponent with it to effectively get +2 Storm. It completely wrecks Karakas tricks, too. It also can't be countered feasibly by anything but a lucky Counterbalance.

[Serch]

I'm new with this deck and I have a few doubts

I read that actually is good to have more than one tendrils for the miracles match up, but i don't understand why is necessary to cast a second tendrils in that match..

I believe I'm missing something.. can anyone give me a hand?

Thanks in advance

[Jaytron]

This is what I'm looking at for my 75, as I'm just starting out.

Any suggestions would be helpful

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Rain of Filth
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Krosan Grip
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Xantid Swarm

[Shaman]

I have just won a Karakas in my LGS thanks to a 5-0 with Rodrigo's list. But the more I play with it the more I wish Preordain to be a second ToA. It gives better ad nauseams and more outs in grindy G1.