[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[CabalTherapy]

How is the user CabalTherapy recommending Thoughtseize over Therapy? What is the world coming to?

All the discard spells are my friends.

[Ronald Deuce]

Chain is generic but too weak sometimes and so is single permanent bounce in general. . . . Thoughtseize

Thanks for the response!

I'm right with you about bounce, especially against decks with Aether Vial. I feel like oftentimes bounce is just as useful as hard removal, though I'll admit readily that it depends on how quickly we anticipate going off after using it.

Thoughtseize definitely crossed my mind, and I'm toying with it because the matchups in which I'd want it are often matchups in which I wouldn't want Ad Nauseam.

[FlyingDelver]

I am curious, are many of you guys still running green in storm? I know its still good but I saw some grixis lists recently which basically play Push instead of Decay and Hope of Ghirapur instead of Xantid Swarm. Don't know if dropping green is that much beneficial, or just some budget excuses or whatever (don't need tropicals and bayou for example).

Decay should in theory not be that crucial anymore, although I think, the uncounterable clause is still very helpful. Don't know though.

[fangzie]

I am curious, are many of you guys still running green in storm? I know its still good but I saw some grixis lists recently which basically play Push instead of Decay and Hope of Ghirapur instead of Xantid Swarm. Don't know if dropping green is that much beneficial, or just some budget excuses or whatever (don't need tropicals and bayou for example).

Decay should in theory not be that crucial anymore, although I think, the uncounterable clause is still very helpful. Don't know though.

Decay is the single broadest piece of removal available and cuts through almost all forms of interaction (excluding protection). It deals cleanly with Leo, Canonist, Chalice and whatever else you might like, shortly of leylines. It's not crucial, it's possible to play without, it's very useful though. I only play two, some others are paying more, but I've found that a single trop is enough to support two and doesn't interfere with my mana, except in some extremely rare situations. I'm also not really a fan of the second basic Issland, never wanted to fetch it, so that helps.

I also don't know why you'd want to run hope over swarm. Swarm is recurrable and doesn't require a hit.

[Luca Grease]

SIDEBOARD:

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Xantid Swarm
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hurkils Recal
1 Karakas
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ground Seal

Just a couple of question from someone who's trying to learn the deck:

Karakas: I assume you play this against DnT/Maverick/Aggro Loam to bounce Thalia/Teeg, and against Sneak and Show. Is it worth it though? White mana is mostly useless, and Thalia decks will be able to Wasteland it. Aren't there better cards to deal with legendary hatebrears/Sneak and Show?

Hurkyll's Recall: in which matchups do you bring this is exactly? Obviously decks with both Chalice and Trinisphere such as Eldrazi, Mud, etc., but also against DnT?

Thanks in advance for your reply!

[FlyingDelver]

Just a couple of question from someone who's trying to learn the deck:

Karakas: I assume you play this against DnT/Maverick/Aggro Loam to bounce Thalia/Teeg, and against Sneak and Show. Is it worth it though? White mana is mostly useless, and Thalia decks will be able to Wasteland it. Aren't there better cards to deal with legendary hatebrears/Sneak and Show?

Hurkyll's Recall: in which matchups do you bring this is exactly? Obviously decks with both Chalice and Trinisphere such as Eldrazi, Mud, etc., but also against DnT?

Thanks in advance for your reply!

From the top of my head, one big argument for Karakas could simply be Leovold, right? Maybe I am wrong on this one though.

I also realized just a few days ago that if you Tendrils an opponent for a bunch of copies, they get to draw that many cards when Leovold is in play which almost cost me a game where my opponent could not quite force of will some copies to prevent lethal.

[Luca Grease]

From the top of my head, one big argument for Karakas could simply be Leovold, right? Maybe I am wrong on this one though.

I also realized just a few days ago that if you Tendrils an opponent for a bunch of copies, they get to draw that many cards when Leovold is in play which almost cost me a game where my opponent could not quite force of will some copies to prevent lethal.

I also thought of Leovold, but bouncing it doesn't seem like the best plan, since you're not guaranteed to go off before they can replay it is you have a handful of cantrips. Decay just seems like a much better answer. Besides, he illustrated his general sb plan against 4c control and it didn't include siding in Karakas

[CabalTherapy]

From the top of my head, one big argument for Karakas could simply be Leovold, right? Maybe I am wrong on this one though.

I also realized just a few days ago that if you Tendrils an opponent for a bunch of copies, they get to draw that many cards when Leovold is in play which almost cost me a game where my opponent could not quite force of will some copies to prevent lethal.

Yes, wrong.

It certainly can be useful on paper but Leovold being a 2off is not the main reason to play Karakas. Decay is more useful here.
Main targets are: Griselbrand, Iona, Thalia, Teeg, Emrakul.

[Ronald Deuce]

I also realized just a few days ago that if you Tendrils an opponent for a bunch of copies, they get to draw that many cards when Leovold is in play which almost cost me a game where my opponent could not quite force of will some copies to prevent lethal.

That's how you stop a resolved Leo in game 1; just go waaay over the top on Storm count. In subsequent games, that obviously doesn't work. People beat me to it; Decay is the best thing for those situations. I played Dredge at the local today, but I'm probably going back to a green sideboard from straight-up Grixis. Been facing Topless Miracles with sideboard hatebears lately. So that's a thing.

[FlyingDelver]

Yeah, you guys certainly convinced me to run Decays, been on straight up Grixis until now. Happy to learn something new everyday, Storm is hard, but really fun! :)

[Ronald Deuce]

Yeah, you guys certainly convinced me to run Decays, been on straight up Grixis until now. Happy to learn something new everyday, Storm is hard, but really fun! :)

Just FYI, there are definitely alternatives to Abrupt Decay (like Rending Volley), but they're really narrow and don't have crossover value against Chalices.

Keep storming!

I've gone back (reluctantly) to 1x AdN, 1x Petition, 2x PiF, but haven't had the chance to test it yet. Anyone else still working with that setup? Not sure whether I'll prove my earlier statement right or eat my words.

[Morden]

try DRS guys, especially if you are running a grixis list.

also, say goodbye to chain of vapor and welcome perilous voyage.

[Dr_D]

Just FYI, there are definitely alternatives to Abrupt Decay (like Rending Volley), but they're really narrow and don't have crossover value against Chalices.

Keep storming!

I've gone back (reluctantly) to 1x AdN, 1x Petition, 2x PiF, but haven't had the chance to test it yet. Anyone else still working with that setup? Not sure whether I'll prove my earlier statement right or eat my words.

Togores literally posted a list last page that had that setup.

[Gros]

Togores literally posted a list last page that had that setup.

Control4Daze isplaying with that setup too, btw idk which is his name here on the forum

[Ronald Deuce]

Togores literally posted a list last page that had that setup.

I was just wondering whether anyone (he or someone else) had further information on how it's working. I abandoned it the first time after a very long period of testing it because I don't get a whole lot of chances to play. I figured maybe someone with more testing time had any updates.

[fangzie]

I was just wondering whether anyone (he or someone else) had further information on how it's working. I abandoned it the first time after a very long period of testing it because I don't get a whole lot of chances to play. I figured maybe someone with more testing time had any updates.

Been trying it recently, will be trying it again. I'm not sure. It's likely good to have the extra piece of business the the new 4c control meta, especially when it comes to beating hymn. On the flipside, I don't really feel handicapped playing without it main and it's frequently less relevant than I want it to be.

[Togores]

try DRS guys, especially if you are running a grixis list.

also, say goodbye to chain of vapor and welcome perilous voyage.

I do see that echoing and perilious could do the same. But not with chain. Having a 1 mana answer or a 2 mana one changes a lot. When you want to bounce iona, chancellor, thalia and so.

[Morden]

I do see that echoing and perilious could do the same. But not with chain. Having a 1 mana answer or a 2 mana one changes a lot. When you want to bounce iona, chancellor, thalia and so.

let's split the discussion in three parts:

1) thalia - now with fatal push (and rending volley for grixis list) I think chain is no more necessary.
2) thorn of amethyst - paying 1 mana less is better (but also scry 2.....), the problem is that thorn is often paired with chalice of the void. 4 chalices, 2/3 thorns. At this point, I prefer to have voyage rather than chain. Lands can be an exception to this rule, but they play trinisphere, that nullifies the benefit of CoV
3) reanimator - in this matchup in fact chain is much much better. Cheaper than voyage, and scry2 is never used. But I prefer to face this matchup trying to prevent the fatty in the field. Once griselbrand is on the field, it's hard......

basically, voyage can really help against chalice. Maybe I'm thinking from a "grixis point of view", in fact if you have decay you solve everything with it and keep the CoV for the cases you mentioned.

[Tiberius42]

What does ground seal come in against? Obviously drs decks, is reanimator too fast for it?

[Morden]

What does ground seal come in against? Obviously drs decks, is reanimator too fast for it?

you can side in also against reanimator, why not. Of course, this doesn't allow you to cut from your sb important graveyard hate like surgical or tormond's crypt, that are primary against reanimator. But trimming a little the deck to have better chances against them is definitely a good thing.