You can play double tendrills but then your deck is full of nauseam damage cards. Usualy the 2 pif 2 toa list dont run nauseam. I tested this aproach and every time I was facing a delver player DRS I hard a a really hard time winning the game. Thats the reason I play nauseam. Just as the fast oop I win card. I dont like empty, its slow, can be raced and Somehow my opp always gets to draw a sweeper. Empty is like a card that you play and pray that your opp does nothing the next 2 turn. Really hate it, for me its a good evil in the deck.Originally Posted by Final Fortune
while its true that more Tendrils mean potentially more dmg from Ad Nauseam, you also need less cards to find a kill in the resolved nauseam (which actually means LESS dmg). All you need is some mana and one of the tendrils. Not to mention all the other possibilities with with LED etc. But those possibilities do have all the variants.
not saying its correct to run more tendrils main, just saying that the argument that Ad nauseam kills you earlier because of it is certainly not very valid.
While thats true 100% that you dont have to dig for led + ritual + infernal pr other combinations its also quite bad when you have a lot of 4 cmc cards that you can reveal 2 at the ~5 first cards and then just die. Because you cant dig deeper for rituals. This happened to me at the top 8 of the bom madrid when I played a nauseam at 13-15 life and in the 3 top cards where 2 pif. And also a decay.
Playing 4 tendrills would make your nauseam better right? But you have to count that flipping the 2nd is like not being able to draw ~5 cards. Wich is huge.
Their is a point where too many big spells are too many. No doubt about it.
I just wanna raise the attention to the Scherer list again though. It plays 5 Big Spells. No problemo.
Yeah sure.
Also that should not be a problem. All storm lista are diferent. But most similar. While playing 2 islands and just 3 black lands are for me a waste. I do think that they also an be good. But I have seen Caleb get bottle neckted on black because of his mana base. Its not impossible.
There is no best list. Its just what you feel and how you wanna play out your games.
I feel like it's worth pointing out that there are a few major strengths to both Petition and Ad Nauseam, though I absolutely am cognizant of their weaknesses.
One big thing that people don't often notice about Petition is that it's absolutely the best piece of redundant business you can have if you're not facing countermagic. It also effectively functions as Infernal with an upside in those situations, because you aren't required to have a Lion's Eye to cast it while keeping cards in hand. Though it's the weakest business slot in the deck, it's also the most flexible if we can foot the bill. Still, all our tutors are weak to countermagic—Dark Petition being the weakest here—and it really hurts to flip Petition off of AdN.
The big thing that's kept me from cutting Ad Nauseam is that it's the go-to card when we need to find multiple things to go off. It's irksome to have to spend fast mana on a card that doesn't guarantee that we'll get there, but it's the only card in the deck that nets us multiple cards, and it nets quite a few. Problems abound if you hit a couple of pieces of business, but I've only had it fail really hard from 19-20 two or three times. Definitely a last resort card if we're lower than 17, though. Oftentimes when AdN kills me, I'm dead on the board anyway, so it's not appreciably worse than having, say, a cantrip, because the odds of finding what we need in 5+ cards are better than the odds of finding it in 2 or 3.
I'm with Winterheart re: the amount of business. I'd rather have higher odds of cratering off of Ad Nauseam than just not finding business. Doesn't happen that often, but it happens enough to write home about. Whether it's worth it to cut Petition completely for added Tendrils, I'm not sure, but I find that having redundant business happens less than having no business at all.
I am thinking about cutting back to four pieces of high-cost business, but I won't get the chance to test it until the weekend, and I don't know what I'd throw into the empty slot.
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^this.
and also, a lot depends also on your local meta. I don't think everyone here is a pro that travels every month around the US/Europe to play big tournaments.....
Empty MD can be sometime better for example; I agree with Rodrigo that it's annoying since you don't win immediately, but only miracle has a sweeper solution G1 (tabernacle-deck are easly beatable with tendrils), furthermore I found that oppontens are better prepared against empty G2, also decks like grixis where usually empty is good (electrickery for example).
I like the line 4 IT/1 pif/1 tendril for this reason, I can choose how to win depending the opponent. I agree with everyone who dislikes petition.
imho EtW md is the worst finisher you just need it when you are quite sure to close the game with it (usually against decks who don't have sweepers)
about petition i run it for 2 month than i change with the second ToA and i would not change it. Toa still the best finisher in hand you just need to build your hand in the way to count to 9/10 and you take one slot from your sb since against miracle multiple ToA still the best way to defeat them
I've found the exact opposite to be true, my highest win % vs Miracles comes from Empty the Warrens racing Terminus.imho EtW md is the worst finisher you just need it when you are quite sure to close the game with it (usually against decks who don't have sweepers)
about petition i run it for 2 month than i change with the second ToA and i would not change it. Toa still the best finisher in hand you just need to build your hand in the way to count to 9/10 and you take one slot from your sb since against miracle multiple ToA still the best way to defeat them
This was a joke. I think Claudio won a GP with 3 Daze in his 75 (Miracles).
I don't agree. Discard can be rather poor when your opponent top decks a CotV.
Please do. I've spent a few too many hours reading the old ANT thread to subdue my overexcited thoughts of old tech (not that old ideas can't become better in a changed environment).
Also, "fair shot" = "not guaranteed but pretty likely." Not sure if you were agreeing or just expanding on how multiple cantrips can find a win as reliably as AdN.
P.S. I inadequately play your list... (Not the 75 but a close MD).
I'm sure you are generalizing Togores. Jonathan Alexander, I'm pretty sure you know how to cantrip and you include Petition in your 75. I'm interested to hear what you think of this discussion.
I don't think he is. I even have to agree completely with his stance, that if you are unable to access either a single Tutor, an Ad Nauseam or a PIF in any generic ANT list in a reasonable time, your cantrip priorities are off. I see people cantripping for Rituals rather than business all the time and it makes me wanna flip tables when I hear "I didn't find a Tutor!" afterwards. The point is that Petitions are unnecessary and clunky every time you draw them in your starting grip in place of a Preordain for example and it gets worse if you have multiple Tutors or business spells in your opening hand, but no way to build T.hold or find early discard against combo. On top of that you get another card which is dead against yardhate and works poorly with LED.
I was a big fan of Petition after release, but it only takes a few dozen games to stumble over the clunkiness of the card which is totally unnecessary to bother with in the first place.
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Im generalizing ofc but not 100%. I have tested the card a lot and really dont like it. I still belive is not needed. Obv there are sceanarios where its great. Like you have toa and cant get hellbent or they surgical/meddling your infernal or revoker the led. But thats cornercase. As I told before ant has been played since years and the deck was a 4 infernal, 1 nauseam, 1 pif and 1 graveyard enghine card. Without grim tutor and it won events just like nowasaya. I understand that in some metagame/scanarios the DP Could be useful. Bur I dont think its like a card thats needed. Its not like you cant win without it in the deck while other cards like pif are a muss just for its raw power. Also I prefer playing a preordain all days of my life over DP.
In my test every time my opp started with DRS or I had ritual + Led and petition I wanted to kill myself. Obv In a goldfish its a great card. But so much things happened to me all rounds that I dissmissed thed card.
Dark Petition is great.
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Disagree :P
When your opponents start with DRS, the worst engine you can have is Pif, not Petition imho.
So I have a few differing opinions with these recent posts about both empty and dark petition.
Personally, I think empty is an amazing card, to the point where I play it in the maindeck and am very happy with it. It's just so good sincea lot of decks have a hard time dealing with it/racing it. It usually just wins vs delver, eldrazi, 4c loam, maverick, and burn, and is still ok vs miracles, dnt, stoneblade, the mirror, show and tell, reanimator and infect, especially if you drew a therapy. I agree that it feels bad to go off with empty and then have your opponent play a maelstrom pulse or draw a terminus or something, but that almost never happens.
I also do not like dark petition, the card can feel super nice when goldfishing, but in reality it's just SUPER clunky a lot of the time. Let me also say that I play grim tutor, a card that a lot of people (me included) feel is also pretty clunky, but I still think it's way, way smoother than dark petition, which says a lot.
Can we stick to the cards which rival the same slots fir the sake of discussion? Would you rather have a Preordain or a DP in your hand if your opponent opens with DRS? Personally, I would not like to see 5 mana tutors if my Cabal Rituals are already shut off
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I have beaten DRS with pif quite a lot of times. Just recasting 2 rituals and 3 cantrips just because he cant get everything. But when they get your tutor its usualy game over.
Also I have had the experice than since DRS is out and empty for 10 t2 gets raced By a shaman + any other creature. mucho more if they have x/1 cretures to chump and gain 2 life with DRS.
I just give my insight. No one has to be right and all cards are strong. I just feel I like more this aproach right now :)
Petition rivals the second piF PRETTY hard imho.
not sure if you guys agreed on some stock list here or anything, but I was under the impression that most here ride the Togores Train. (no criticism here. was just an observation =))
So yes, I certainly want a DP instead of a 3rd preordain. Any day, every day.
I don't agree. Have you read much of the previous pages? If so, he did just win a GP. I think he has some credibility.
Edit: to be clear
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