Originally Posted by ScottW
In theory it's not a great matchup, but I've played it probably 5 times in the past 8 months or so and I believe won all but one. Its difficulty has to be overstated. It can be a blowout, but I build my sideboard to address tough or draw-dependent matchups with the thought that skill and the deck's inherent power level can get me through the others. To wit, I've been playing 2 Flusterstorms and 2 Surgicals for the majority of that time, and as a result I have a very good record in the mirror, a decent record against Show and Tell, and a good record against Reanimator. That combination of cards allows ANT to play control better than the other combo decks while still being quick.
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Me and the more social part of my meta had a playtesting night at a local pub the week before GP Lille at which I faced reanimator in seven consecutive games as we tried to figure the matchup.
Going into the match both of us knew what the other person was playing, him classic reanimator (I think) and me pretty classical ANT. We didn't board until after game 3 I think, and I only won one of those games, in the others he managed to get a quick Iona.
Postboard games (I didn't know what to side in so I left it all untouched) he had slowed down quite a bit, going the controlling route. This in turn let me dominate him in most games, giving us a final score of 4-3 in my favour if I recall correctly.
None of us were familiar with the matchup at that time so take all this with a grain of salt.
Well I just got completely shut out at a weekly. I don't think I exactly made a bunch of play msitakes, but more so my opponents had some pretty good draws. This is my list and I'm curious what your thoughts are on some of the specific blow outs that happened and my sideboard choices:
Lands 15
4x Polluted Delta
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
Fast Mana 16
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Cantrips 14
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Preordain
1x Sensei's Divining Top
Disruption 6
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress
Engine Pieces 9
4x Infernal Tutor
1x Dark Petition
2x Past In Flames
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Tendrils of Agony
Sideboard 15
2x Dread of Night
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Tendrils of Agony
2x chain of vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Surgical Extraction
Round 1 Burn
Game 1 He was on a mull to 5 and I crushed him not much else to talk about.
Sideboard: -ad nauseam, 3 duress, sensei's divining top, preordain // +4 Abrupt Decay, 2 Chain of vapor
All I want in this match up is removal for an Eidolon of the great revel right? I mean that's the only card we actually care about except for other permanent based hate like grafdigger's cage or null rod both of which are answered by the same things we bring in for eidolon of the great revel. Another storm pilot said he thinks I over boarded, but it seems right, or did I lose to much consistency by shaving 2 cantrips? This is also one of the few non wasteland match ups where I want swamp to help dodge price of progress right?
Game 2 Mainly boiled down to one decision tree. I'm at 16 it's turn 3 and he attacks with a goblin guide revealing an abrupt decay on top of my library. I already have an abrupt decay in hand and decide to preserve my life total by using the abrupt decay in my hand to kill his goblin guide. This does require me to fetch shuffling away the abrupt decay that was revealed. He then dropped Eidolon of the great revel and well I died shortly thereafter. Was it bad for me to abrupt decay his Goblin Guide like that? It seemed fine I mean if he had an Eidolon of the great revel he would have jammed it turn 2 so I put him on not having it. Afterwards he did say he ripped it that turn so should I just chalk it up to bad luck?
Game 3 This game went pretty fast with him having double goblin guide but stuck on 1 mountain. Now I did rip a land off the first goblin guide and then when the second one dropped I Brainstormed 2 lands to the top. I repeated the same thing next turn. Turn 4 I went for it with him presenting close to lethal with me at 8 and inevitably it didn't matter what I did. My hand was something like:
Chain of vapor, Dark ritual, cabal ritual, Infernal Tutor, Dark Petition, Past In flames, Abrupt Decay with 4 lands in play
I used the Chain of vapor to bounce his Tormod's Crypt. Then as I started to go off he played Faerie Macabre to eat my two rituals in my bin which left me stranded after I played Past in flames. It was something along those lines but I kept going through the lines and couldn't seem to find some way to get there. Every iteration I ran of the game ended in some scenario of him eating my rituals or cutting me off of tutors before past in flames resolved. It was a really interesting game and I completely walked right into the faerie macabre which wasn't on my radar. I definitely don't think I'm supposed to play around it. I also don't think there was any way even with perfect information to execute a line that won. Every time I looked at the lines even taking into account his faerie macabre it shut down my past in flames lines and I couldn't get high enough mana or storm count to tutor chain. I also feel like the tormod's crypt lured me into the chain of vapor line which seemed promising but just corners me because he eats my rituals and then I have no mana
Now that aside did I play my 2 brainstorms incorrectly there? I mean at that point essentially I'm just turning it into ancestral recall if I'm putting back 2 lands that I'm drawing off of goblin guides right? I did that once and the first one turned into essentially a put 1 back brainstorm. I mean there's no actual value in waiting until my turn in that situation is there? Either way I'm drawing 3 fresh cards just one way ends with +2 cards and the other is just a regular brainstorm.
Round 2 4 Color Delver
Game 1 he got there off of a pyromancer with some cantrips + daze + bolt for a lot of damage early on before I could assemble my combo.
Sideboard - Dark Petition, 2 lotus petal, Sensei's Divining Top // + 2 Xantid Swarm, 2 Carpet of flowers
This seemed like a reasonable sideboard for this match up. Sensei's Divining Top is too slow to have against delver and Dark Petition seems horrendous when they have daze and spell pierce. Shaving the two lotus petals for carpets seems like a straight upgrade in this match up and this is where I want it right to help fight of soft permission and establish my mana?
Game 2 Was really close and ended with my Infernal tutors getting surgical extractioned in response to Past in flames. Which I tried to make the best out of a bad situation and flash backed 3 cantrips + ad nauseam (it was used as counter bait turn 2 I think). Inevitably I didn't draw the natural Tendrils of Agony, but besides that Past in flames still felt as strong as ever.
In my opinion you shouldn't care about Goblin Guide unless you're at a really low life total. Abrupt Decay is largely for Eidolon if you're boarding that in for this match up. I don't know all the cards that were in your hand in this instance but at 16 life I don't think the Guide is relevant enough to warrant using your Decay.
Sure, the guy ripped Eidolon from the top but he runs four so those were decent odds he'd find one.
If I know burn can be at my LGS I'm definitely packing EtW in my 75. Decaying goblin guide is pretty bad, but if you were really far from going off the problem was probably that you shouldn't have kept the hand you did. In game 3, if I haven't seen anything weird like mindbreak traps in game 2, I would put the ad nauseam, preodrain and top back in. We get to go off on T2 or T3 if we have a cabal therapy. I would still Ad Nauseam on T1 or T2 from 15-17. Ad Nauseam sucks from low life but that's not what it's there for.
Tendrils of Agony is a very good card, you know.
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Hi there - Brandon Osborne here -my first post on the forum (posted on the Storm FB page before) but have been following it for quite a while and been running ANT with a decent amount of success over the past 6 months. Something I've found myself do before, and something I have to consciously remind myself not to do, is over sideboard. Bringing in 4 Abrupt decay in the burn matchup seems like overkill to me, and it takes you off your game plan to a point where I feel it advantages your opponent. I would likely bring in 1-2 decay, 2 chain, and keep at least 2 of the duress main.
In the BURg delver matchup, I would anticipate having to grind a little bit more - I would want to keep the Divining Top in, and likely board out the preordain, as well as pull 2 cabal rituals instead of the petals (if you are keeping Ad Nauseaum in). Likely cut a PIF as well, and maybe run a Decay or two, just to give you some play if they bring in Null Rod or to knock out a DRS. Empty is definitely very useful in the matchup as well.
It seems like BURg will likely take a big hit from a metagame perspective now that Dig is gone.
I'm intrigued by the conversation regarding pithing needle as a board option, and will likely try to run some number for DRS decks over the next few weeks - seems decent.
-Brandon
I'm not sure EtW would be a better call than just using Tendrils. I get that an Eidolon can make it extremely difficult to reach storm 10, but is storming, say, six and waiting a turn for an attack step really a better play than trying to junk the Eidolon and power through? Also, why would you leave EtW OUT of your list (burn or no)?
I disagree regarding AdN. If you can't find what you need (which is not uncommon), you're virtually certain to get burned out. I'd rather side in an extra Petition.
I play empty, but I was just advising that even if you don't play it in your 75 normally but know burn will be there I would recommend adding it. I would add it for lots of other reasons but in relation to burn empty is really good. Even on the draw they really can't beat 10 or 12 goblins, and they really can't T3 you very often.
I'm keeping ad nauseam in because I want to be able to win before eidolon comes down.
To clarify if I had empty and ad nauseam in my 75 I wouldn't bring both in, I would just bring in empty. If I didn't have empty I would bring in ad nauseam.
Got it! That makes a lot of sense.
Well, had a disappointing day at the LGS today. Was supposed to be a Legacy tournament, but only three people showed up (including me). A guy who works there joined us to mess around; lost 0-2 to Maverick, 1-2 to Merfolk, but won 2-0 against BUG Delver. Not a great First Blood day. (I guess "First Blood" technically was Thursday night, when I stormed for 42 life in 2hg, but that doesn't really count.)
Was a bit of a weird day all around. I got manascrewed for the first four games, so not sure how representative my performance was. Maverick was an absolute beast, though.
R1: Maverick
G1: I Probe to see two Thalias and Gaddock Teeg. He brings out Knight of the Reliquary and I'm toast.
G2: Mulliganed to five before I hit a land. I don't think I found a second. I Probe to see three Thalias and Gaddock Teeg. Yep.
Not a whole lot to say about this one. Abrupt Decay is great, but it's hard to find four of them. Especially when you (I) only own three and you don't have a Tropical Island in play.
R2: Merfolk
G1: Close game. I Ad Nauseam'd to 1 to find a kill. Don't try this at home, kids; he had a couple of Cursecatchers on the board and forgot that they do what they do.
G2: Don't remember this game that well, but I think I was sitting on a Volcanic Island with no other lands and a handful of (black) Rituals, LEDs, and a Tutor or two. I think I only found two lands this game, including a Swamp that I (stupidly) Pondered away turn 1 or 2.
G3: Died off of Ad Nauseam while facing down two or three Merfolk Lords. I would've boarded it out but it saved me in game 1. Been kicking myself because I was one mana away from a natural Empty the Warrens for 12-14 and decided to play for the Tendrils. Not sure it would've made a difference, but you never know.
I wasn't actually that worried about Cursecatcher. I think I could find enough rituals to pay it off the first game (even if he had noticed that he'd had free Force Spikes on the table), and the second game, I just didn't get any mana. I've got to be less ballsy with AdN, I think. Been playing too much All Spells.
R3: BUG Delver
G1: Finally started finding lands. He landed a Deathrite and a Delver, but he made a bad Ponder and shut himself out of flipping the Delver. Had to fight through some countermagic (Daze and Force, I think) but he Dazed a Therapy when I had the bucks to pay it off (EDIT: This might've actually been round 2. I definitely saw some disruption, but only one or two pieces that didn't stop my combo).
G2: He had a fast start with double Tarmogoyf and a Deathrite Shaman, but there wasn't much in the graveyard. I lucked out; he'd played out most of his hand, so I Therapied naming Force. He thought for a minute, then decided to let it resolve. He was holding a land and two copies of Force. I comboed next turn.
Not sure how much of what happened was directly a product of manascrew, but I know that G2 vs Merfolk, I made a stupid decision that cost me the match. I think the reason I shuffled away the Swamp was that I didn't see anything else I needed in the three, so I've got a bad feeling I was screwed either way (draw the Swamp and have no combo, or shuffle the Swamp and draw a bunch of rituals). I definitely need more practice.
Maverick was just a monstrously cringeworthy matchup. Thalia's incredibad, but I think Gaddock Teeg's the deck's real silver bullet. A live Mother of Runes shuts down everything we can throw at Mav that isn't tailor-made to fight Gaddock (our wincons cost 4, Massacre costs 4, Drown in Sorrow and Infest cost 3 and are too slow, and Pyroclasm gets blanked by Mom). Newbie's question: what's the predominant solution to Gaddock? [cards]Disfigure et al. can't deal with multiple threats, and both games, my opponent had multiple threats. I might've just had a horribly unlucky day, but I wouldn't be surprised if similar problems occurred in the future.
Regarding land-screw, I'm not really sure what to do. I'm running eight fetches and fourteen lands total. I keep getting screwed when I run fourteen (even with an equal number of cantrips), but whenever I experiment with fifteen, I feel like I get flooded every time.
I like this deck a lot, but I'm not sure whether I'm just a terrible player or whether luck frowned on me today. I may have used up all my good luck when I pulled a Delta at the BFZ draft Friday. I'd appreciate any feedback (aside from "practice more"), but I need to practice more, so fair enough if nobody's got anything to say.
Last edited by Ronald Deuce; 10-05-2015 at 03:53 PM.
I think you need to increase Dread of Night in your sb, It's best answer vs MoR and Thalia, with double one on table you also kill Gaddock. Other option is Karakas as 1 mana solution to protected hatebear.
Cantrips are hard in general, but it might have also been the mulligan decision. It sounds like your opener was Volcanic, Ponder, Fast Mana. You need to find a business spell and a black source (and a discard spell it seems), and they can waste your only land. I don't really like the hand all that much.
I really like EtW a lot better than Ad Nauseam in that matchup in general.
Just for clarification, you don't have to name a card until the therapy resolves.
Usual boards consist of some generic removal(Decay/Chain/Disfigure/SPact/Clasm etc) and some more specialized anti white hate in either Dread of Night (much stronger in thalia matchups) or Massacre (also fine vs some UWx decks, but less strong in this matchup), boarding around 7 removal in total (so usually not all decays). If you're seeing a lot of white hate decks I'd definately consider a playset of Dread of Night in the board. A single Karakas isn't too bad either since it hits Teeg/Thalia (for 0 mana). If you're just running into Maverick/DnT every now and then, and also play versus decks like UWR with hatebears in the board and Esper Deathblade, I'd just go with a few Massacres.
I like 15 much more than 14, unless you play in a meta with very few wastelands.
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
Yeah, you're probably right. In one game (I don't remember which) I started with 2-3 cantrips and only blue(/red?)-producing lands, so I thought I had enough to dig for a black source. No dice...
Oh, I agree; I just worried because I was stuck on one land with a couple of 1-costed spells (and Empty). Figured if I gave it a little while, I'd find the gas, but it didn't pan out. I need to practice with the cantrips.
For sure. Funnily enough, that question came up during the game! I've played MtG for probably 17 years, but I'm out of practice in part because I haven't played in many tournaments until recently. I tend to shortcut to Force against certain players/decks, though, because it's probably their best weapon against decks like this one, and I've started to notice who's running Force and how often they're doing so. I kept finding that Daze wasn't particularly effective unless the opponent hit our first ritual with it (which someone did, I think in round 3). Spell Pierce was a bigger problem yesterday, and the Merfolk player shut me down with a fast one in game 2(?).
What you said bears repeating in the primer and reiterating here, though; Therapy and Duress target PLAYERS, not CARDS, so we're not obligated to name a card until resolution.
I've not tested Dread yet, but I've been kicking around the idea a bit. Feels like a one-card answer to D&T, which is nice, but from what I've seen, it seems a lot less effective against Biggro decks like Mav and it's ineffective against non-white creatures. The difficulty is in finding two pieces of removal for one Gaddock because even if Dread wipes Mom and Thalia, it still leaves Knight, Gaddock, Scavenging Ooze, Canonist, Stoneforge, and (perhaps crucially) Qasali Pridemage. I'm most worried that I'll only find one when I need something more, but I'll give it a spin.
I think you're probably right. As I think about it, if I'd drawn a ton of lands (likely incl. fetches) I would've had better options. Thinking of adding maindeck Tropical or a regular Island instead of one Preordain or Duress. How's a 2-Duress, 4-Therapy build been working for people? Too little disruption, or just right?
deleted post, was given incorrect decklist.
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With 3 cantrips that's fine, I really like those hands. With 2 it depends (does probe count?), can usually keep 'em too.
Yeah, this deck is very effective in dealing with soft countermagic, stuff like Spell Snare hits us much more than Pierce/Daze do.
In the same vein, Therapy targets a player whereas Duress targets an opponent. This is actually relevant every now and then when you desperately need to achieve hellbent, and has won me games (and lost one where I only had duress and needed to hit myself but couldn't).
Keep in mind that you can infernal for a second copy in that matchup, which is pretty backbreaking.
I've been happy with 6 discard in the TC and DTT eras, but haven't played the new(old) meta yet. I think I used to run 7 back then, but I don't think the 7th is essential.
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
I put my faith in the probe and currently love this setup. I've never had to work that hard against counterspells with board pressure though, the testing pool is currently too small. I've had some games against miracles where it ultimately comes down to him having the lock or me winning.
Eyo Sandro, didn't know you read this thread
/Oliver
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volcanic Island
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
2 Preordain
2 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
3 Cryptic Command
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
1 Rebuild
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Tropical Island
1 Slaughter Pact
This list was in the top8 of the Ovino main event. I don't get the sideboard, why are there 3 Cryptic Commands?
Maybe it should be chain of vapor but was lost in translation? Playing even a single cryptic in this deck would be a feat.[CARDS]4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
[...]
3 Cryptic Command
[...]
I don't get the sideboard, why are there 3 Cryptic Commands?
I don't think that it's a translation error because on mtgtop8 they even called the deck "Cryptic Storm".
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