[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Miscanthus]

How bad would be to play both Tropical and Bayou in the sideboard?

It is not bad at all. Caleb Sherer has used this approach to a lot of success in the past. See the link in post 5940 in this thread for more detail on this.

[Plague Sliver]

So we had our annual Legacy powerhouse tournament in Beijing over the weekend. ($30 entry for $3000 first place prize in cash, anyone?)

This list took 4th / 106 players. Special mention because he wrecked me out of the money.

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Dark Petition
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Badlands

Sideboard

2 Flusterstorm
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Fatal Push
1 By Force
1 Massacre
2 Echoing Truth
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Defense Grid

2x Badlands is certainly very interesting. I've not tested that before. He told me he doesn't usually storm, maybe it's a budget choice?

Not a fan of maindeck Empty the Warrens, but that's a personal choice.

[CabalTherapy]

2x Badlands is certainly very interesting. [...] maybe it's a budget choice?

100%

[Ronald Deuce]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the logic behind running singletons of all the business. I get that Empty and Petition are good for speed, but how would that setup improve resilience or consistency over a list with doubles?

[Dr_D]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the logic behind running singletons of all the business. I get that Empty and Petition are good for speed, but how would that setup improve resilience or consistency over a list with doubles?

You play an Empty in the board right? Playing one main is fine, and it's nice when you want a line that goes off for 6 mana, or even 4 mana if you draw it. What's there not to understand about a single Petition? It's the fifth tutor just like players have played a single Grim Tutor....

[Ronald Deuce]

You play an Empty in the board right? Playing one main is fine, and it's nice when you want a line that goes off for 6 mana, or even 4 mana if you draw it. What's there not to understand about a single Petition? It's the fifth tutor just like players have played a single Grim Tutor....

I get why it's nice to have any or all of the cards; what confuses me is the 1-to-1-to-1-to-1-to-1 ratio. Why an Empty/Petition over a second Past in Flames? Why an Empty the Warrens over a second Petition? Sure, the list looks quicker than what I've been running (and than what a lot of other people in the thread have long advocated), but it looks less resilient and consistent than either double-Petition or double-PiF builds [EDIT: and like the speed won't be appreciably faster than double-Petition].

[wonderPreaux]

I get why it's nice to have any or all of the cards; what confuses me is the 1-to-1-to-1-to-1-to-1 ratio. Why an Empty/Petition over a second Past in Flames? Why an Empty the Warrens over a second Petition? Sure, the list looks quicker than what I've been running (and than what a lot of other people in the thread have long advocated), but it looks less resilient and consistent than either double-Petition or double-PiF builds [EDIT: and like the speed won't be appreciably faster than double-Petition].

I think that the 11:1 ratio of PiF, EtW, Petition, and Ad Nauseam is a great way to balance the utility of all these cards. It prevents dud-draws of double PiF, for instance, gives you the marginal utility of the 6-mana goblin line, keeps your Ad Nauseams passably good (the Chrome Mox helps there, I would probably play a 7th discard in the main and still play this config, though), and still gives you a greater density than only 4 Infernal Tutors.

I think a recurring issue in ANT lists is something like "4 Infernal Tutor is sometimes too little business, but other options are never good enough", Burning Wish conflicts with all black rituals, Grim Tutor is clunky in terms of life loss, Dark Petition is clunky in terms of up-front mana, GY hate blunts multiple PiF etc. The 11:1 spread makes up for the individual lacking of any of these by increasing your general utility by having a slice of the equity all of them provide. You go into the fewest number of matchups cold, the odd-card out for any particular matchup g1 (EtW against combo, Ad Nauseam against tempo etc.) would've just been your least-marginally-useful Tutor-analogue, 3rd/4th Preordain, or duplicate PiF anyway, so the expected value holds up all-around and you do have that one Petition to up your business density and give you that loveable bit of Surgical Extraction resilience.

Given that the 2nd PiF or 3rd/4th Preordain gets sided out by a lot of people post-board, the idea that you'd often side out an EtW or Ad Nauseam game 1, imo, isn't that significant a change, and being able to buy in wins against combo/prison that only Ad Nauseam or Empty can get you is likely a greater overall impact than the nth cantrip or "Tutor that isn't quite Infernal Tutor". Overall, budget mana base and my quibble about the Chrome Mox aside, I think the list is really nice.

[Dr_D]

I get why it's nice to have any or all of the cards; what confuses me is the 1-to-1-to-1-to-1-to-1 ratio. Why an Empty/Petition over a second Past in Flames? Why an Empty the Warrens over a second Petition? Sure, the list looks quicker than what I've been running (and than what a lot of other people in the thread have long advocated), but it looks less resilient and consistent than either double-Petition or double-PiF builds [EDIT: and like the speed won't be appreciably faster than double-Petition].

You're talking like Double Petition is the standard. A lot of us wouldn't even consider it. I can name several scenarios where I'd rather have Empty in hand, like if my hand can only produce 4-5 storm and 4-6 mana. Of course, not all players prefer Empty in the main, but it's ludicrous to not at least see why some would want to include it. As for including it over Past in Flames, the cards serve completely different roles. A second PiF is better if you're looking to grind out blue decks while the Empty is better if you're trying to get under permanent based hate like Chalice or Thalia.

[Ronald Deuce]

You're talking like Double Petition is the standard. . . . As for including it over Past in Flames, the cards serve completely different roles. A second PiF is better if you're looking to grind out blue decks while the Empty is better if you're trying to get under permanent based hate like Chalice or Thalia.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think double-Petition is the standard (I haven't run that configuration in probably a year). I'm trying to figure out why people are choosing to run a bunch of singletons and not to run duplicates of business spells, and (perhaps paltry) experience tells me that I'd rather commit to a specific business package—either to increase speed (double-Petition) or to have a contingency plan against countermagic and discard (double-PiF). There are other issues with cards like Empty the Warrens, but I'm leaving those aside for now.

WonderPreaux, I totally hear where you're coming from. I just don't understand why that approach outperforms ones that put a greater emphasis on consistency. Like, how often is drawing a second Past in Flames a problem, compared to situations in which you can't find one to save your life? How often is drawing an Empty better than just drawing a Petition (or, for that matter, a Grim Tutor)?

And if we're 'boarding out business cards regularly because they don't work in a large number of matchups, why maindeck them in the first place? 'Boarding out Preordain, for instance, makes sense, but that's already an extremely low-impact card. It won't change our overarching strategy, but shifting cards like Petition, Past in Flames, or Empty the Warrens will. I often do that, but I don't get why we'd go into a match un-pre-boarded when we can start with an edge using configurations we know are universally strong and consistent.

I hope I'm not coming across as a butt. I just don't get it, and I haven't played any games that make me want to decrease consistency to increase theoretical versatility.

[Mastikor]

I don't understand what exactly troubles you. There are some flex slots in ANT that you can fill with extra Pif, DP, Etw or cantrips. Adjust the numbers according to your metagame and your playstyle. That's really all.

[Hrothgar]

I don't want to lose any possibility.
My main deck setup is very easy:

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames

+

1 Past in Flames (if I think to not play vs many Chalice decks - 60% of times in my meta)

or

1 Empty the Warrens (if I think to play vs many Chalice and Leovold - 40% of times in my meta)


Imho double past in flames is resilient and give to us the chance to use graveyard in g1, when the hate cards are limited (4 Deathrite or nothing).
If i suppose many Chalice deck in the hall, I use the Empty plan MD, that normally I don't like so much.

-

I don't want to play with 2 Dark Petition, I'm sure, because 90% of times, in my test, I've used it for a Past in Flames tutoring and this have no sense..

[FlyingDelver]

Nothing new here, but to give an overview:

The standard manabase in the 4c variant:

You will be playing:
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Sea
1 Black/X Dual
1 Blue/X Dual
1 Blue/Y Dual
8 Fetchlands

Your fetchland configuration has two main purposes:
(1) Every land needs to be able to find every color.
(2) Enough lands need to find basics of both colors.

Your personal view on the second point dictates your use of blue or black fetchlands beyond the 4 Polluted Delta.
In a Bayou/Trop/Volc setup the blue fetch is Misty, and in Badlands/Volc/Trop it is Tarn, as they are able to find all the duals.
The black fetchlands need to adhere to the first point made above, which means that it will be black plus the color of your single dual (2 green duals = Mire, 2 red duals = Catacombs).

I've always been happy with 7 blue and 5 black fetches in 8, so I've been going with 3 Misty/1 Mire and 3 Tarn/1 Catacombs. With 9 fetches I'd probably play 3/2 rather than 4/1. There are downsides to having too many lands which don't find basic Island though.

To bring this topic up again, I thought about this landbase configuration template a bit.

I was wandering, lets say I have a Badlands/Volcanic/Tropical setup (with obvious 4 Deltas and 2 Useas as well as 1 Island and 1 Swamp), what the other 4 fetchlands should be. According to this template, I should basically run 2 Tarns and 2 Catacombs, right? The tarns would basically find all duals but not the swamp, and the catacombs won't find Volcanic and no Island. Isn't running just 4 Tarns better at this point? Tarn can get all duals, you only lack to find the basic swamp here. I dont know how important it is to find the basic swamp.

I also saw lists with a Tropical/Bayou/Volcanic configuration that ran 4 Delta and just 4 Misty rainforests for the same reason. Is finding "more" lands in general not better than finding the least important basic? Am not sure about this yet. But that being said, I can see why you like a 3/1 split here, maybe this is the sweetspot?

[Dr_D]

Don't get me wrong; I don't think double-Petition is the standard (I haven't run that configuration in probably a year). I'm trying to figure out why people are choosing to run a bunch of singletons and not to run duplicates of business spells, and (perhaps paltry) experience tells me that I'd rather commit to a specific business package—either to increase speed (double-Petition) or to have a contingency plan against countermagic and discard (double-PiF). There are other issues with cards like Empty the Warrens, but I'm leaving those aside for now.

WonderPreaux, I totally hear where you're coming from. I just don't understand why that approach outperforms ones that put a greater emphasis on consistency. Like, how often is drawing a second Past in Flames a problem, compared to situations in which you can't find one to save your life? How often is drawing an Empty better than just drawing a Petition (or, for that matter, a Grim Tutor)?

And if we're 'boarding out business cards regularly because they don't work in a large number of matchups, why maindeck them in the first place? 'Boarding out Preordain, for instance, makes sense, but that's already an extremely low-impact card. It won't change our overarching strategy, but shifting cards like Petition, Past in Flames, or Empty the Warrens will. I often do that, but I don't get why we'd go into a match un-pre-boarded when we can start with an edge using configurations we know are universally strong and consistent.

I hope I'm not coming across as a butt. I just don't get it, and I haven't played any games that make me want to decrease consistency to increase theoretical versatility.

People run singletons instead of duplicates because ANT is a Tutor based deck and players want to have the best option more often. Just because you have issues with Empty doesn't mean it's bad or people shouldn't play it. I still find it to be a good option and prefer it over Ad Nauseam main.

How often is drawing Empty better than drawing Petition? Every time you play against a Delver deck.

There's not even that many decks where you want to take Empty out. Other combo decks, Lands, Nic Fit, but it's still great against Delver decks, Chalice decks, and I find it to be fine against Miracles and Pile because I'm looking to grind those decks out with multiple storm spells anyway.

[taconaut]

I agree with what many of the people above have said about the singletons, though I don't personally run Empty in the main - in game one, I like to have the flexibility to go for whatever line is necessary, rather than whatever line is typically the most reliable or resilient. It also leaves room for a seventh discard spell and a chrome mox, which I like for the extra information/protection and quality ad nauseams. Then, post-board, if empty is good and ad nauseam isn't, I can swap, or if more PiFs and tendrils would help, I can add them in. It's less about being faster and more about being more flexible: there are so many decks in legacy that having some extra options is often a boon.

As for the lands, I tend to find that getting the basic swamp is typically less important than the islands because, worst case scenario, you can sculpt your hands with islands and cantrips, and then fetch an underground sea for the one black mana you need to get started on the turn you want to combo. There are times when you want a black basic (for discard, for instance, or a value tutor) but you can often get away without it in a pinch.

[PirateKing]

As for the lands, I tend to find that getting the basic swamp is typically less important than the islands because, worst case scenario, you can sculpt your hands with islands and cantrips, and then fetch an underground sea for the one black mana you need to get started on the turn you want to combo. There are times when you want a black basic (for discard, for instance, or a value tutor) but you can often get away without it in a pinch.

I agree with this beyond even fetching for a black source to get started. Getting the count started with Lotus Petal into Dark Ritual is totally viable with a lot of wins, but Lotus Petal into Ponder just reeks of desperation play. Under ideal conditions you will only need to make black mana once, but the same can't be said for blue. Basic Island is important.

[taconaut]

Basic Island is important.

Yeah, one of the things I've liked the most about going straight grixis is not drawing a trop as my only blue source into a wasteland - the second island sounds overkill, but being able to have Island + Island + Swamp in play can give you a lot of breathing room.

[Togores]

I like to play all 8 fetches blue and 4 black. Does not matter if Scalding (If Badlands) or Misty (If Bayou).

Everytime I have played the 2nd island it has felt like really bad. You can just always fetch for duals in front of wasteland. Because they will so not cut you ot of mana. The 2 islands are really bad when Playing good sideboard cards and also They are only good in the combo turn against daze, and not allowing to cast double discard into a ritual for example or duress, ritual into a pif.

[FlyingDelver]

I like to play all 8 fetches blue and 4 black. Does not matter if Scalding (If Badlands) or Misty (If Bayou).

Everytime I have played the 2nd island it has felt like really bad. You can just always fetch for duals in front of wasteland. Because they will so not cut you ot of mana. The 2 islands are really bad when Playing good sideboard cards and also They are only good in the combo turn against daze, and not allowing to cast double discard into a ritual for example or duress, ritual into a pif.

What do you mean by fetching for duals in front of wasteland? Like to fetch them on your own turn so that you can tap them for mana still?

Lets say if I run Empty maindeck and 4 green SB cards, is Badlands instead of Bayou good enough? Or would you still play the Bayou config.

[Togores]

If your hand is something like: Delta + undergound you can fetch for island and then deploy underground. Problem is that a wasteland will cut you of a color. So its better to fetch for underground and risk on him having double wasteland. Because here just one wrecks your mana.


I like badlands if you play 3 MD red cards. Also depends if you SB in green cards against wasteland. If your gonna side RED/Green cards agaisnt wasteland decks you should only SB in cards from the color you have 2 duals.

[Sloshthedark]

If your hand is something like: Delta + undergound you can fetch for island and then deploy underground. Problem is that a wasteland will cut you of a collor. So its better to fetch for underground and risk on him having double wasteland. Because here just one wrecks your mana.


I like badlands if you play 3 MD red cards. Also depends if you SB in green cards against wasteland. If your gonna side RED/Green cards agaisnt wasteland decks you should only SB in cards from the collor you have 2 duals.

this man speaks my language