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Thread: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

  1. #6161

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Thought we should get a bit of discussion around the latest piece of hatebear nonsense going on, so how are people feeling about this?


  2. #6162
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by fangzie View Post
    Thought we should get a bit of discussion around the latest piece of hatebear nonsense going on, so how are people feeling about this?

    Ugh, that's a dumb one.
    1. We can play around it by just ramping up to four lands.
    2. Zero mana isn't no mana. It's an amount of mana, and the amount is 0.
    Unless they specify in the oracle text that spells that cost 0 mana also get countered.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ugh, that's a dumb one.
    1. We can play around it by just ramping up to four lands.
    2. Zero mana isn't no mana. It's an amount of mana, and the amount is 0.
    Unless they specify in the oracle text that spells that cost 0 mana also get countered.
    Well to use Nix as precedent, your second point isn't looking healthy:
    Nix doesnít check whether a spellís mana cost is 0. Rather, it checks how much mana was actually spent to cast it. It can counter a spell with mana cost 0 (such as Slaughter Pact), a spell cast via an alternative nonmana cost (such as Allosaurus Rider) or alternative cost of 0 (such as Basking Rootwalla), a spell whose cost to cast it was reduced to 0 (such as Frogmite), a spell cast without paying its cost due to an effect (such as suspend or Mindleech Massís ability), or a copy of a spell, among other possibilities. It will not counter a spell that had an additional or alternative mana cost paid to cast it, regardless of that spellís converted mana cost (such as a face-down spell cast with morph, or an Ornithopter cast while Trinisphere is on the battlefield, for example).

    After sleeping on it and rereading it today, it's not that spooky. It doesn't have flash so we can play our turn without a new surprise. It doesn't stop us from digging and sculpting and posturing like Thalia does. Makes Massacre a bad answer but Abrupt Decay or Echoing Truth or Abrade work just fine. Chalice on 1 hurts us more than Chalice on 0, and that's the only real effect we care about.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I'm pretty sure the "no mana" phrase on Lavinia is a blanket for Petals, Forces, Summoner's Pacts, and Ancestral Visions.

    Well, the good news is that we can still cast 0-costed stuff to build Storm count against it, it non-bos with Thalia and Thorn of Amethyst (we can cast 0-cmc spells for 1), and it's still just as vulnerable to our disruption as any of the other shenanigan-bearing bears.

    Bad news is that if we don't hit four lands, it's a hard lock. Also, unlike other hate-bears (except Leo), Lavinia pitches to Force. I'm not too worried about seeing it from most decks, but maybe the Stoneblade matchup will become a real contest again. I can't really see a place for it in Miracles, though it might start to show up as a left-field sideboard card.

    In all honesty, I'm more worried about what the card says about the state of game design than I am about what it'll actually do in Legacy. It's like they decided to give new, mediocre toys to DTBs just so they can keep suppressing the prophesied Storm-pocalypse, which, of course, isn't happening anyway. Not really sure what they were planning for the card if they were considering Legacy, though I'd be surprised if they were.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  5. #6165

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    That card will be sick in Vintage, and seem to upset the EDH Crowd. Probably not targeting neither storm nor legacy.


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  6. #6166

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    That card will be sick in Vintage...Probably not targeting neither storm nor legacy.
    Maybe out of landstill? Kambal seems better in the paradoxical mirrors, although this card is easier on the mana.

    But I think you're right. It doesn't hit legacy in any meaningful way. At least on the surface. From our perspective, I think it appears quite beatable just by sculpting a game plan around it (ie make land drops and take rits over artifact mana). It doesn't appear to hamper any other combo decks as well to any significant margin and is easy to answer.

    I guess I'm probably going to have to see a million copies of it on MTGO of I play at all over the next few weeks, which will be annoying, but will hopefully subside.

    It's like they decided to give new, mediocre toys to DTBs just so they can keep suppressing the prophesied Storm-pocalypse, which, of course, isn't happening anyway
    I guess the thing I dislike here is that it's one sided. If you're going to print prison effects, at least have it symmetrical and make deck building a little more interesting if you want to abuse the effect

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    So it seems like everyone has moved back off of the 2 Petition build? I'm still liking my 2 Petition 1 RoF 1 PiF build but if I'm not doing myself any favors running that combination I'd like to know.
    "If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by boneclub24 View Post
    So it seems like everyone has moved back off of the 2 Petition build? I'm still liking my 2 Petition 1 RoF 1 PiF build but if I'm not doing myself any favors running that combination I'd like to know.
    The main thing is that Past in Flames is just spectacular against countermagic. Not sure how the loss of Probe has impacted Petition strategies, but we've probably lost much of the speed advantage we had before, so I'd favor greater resilience over a better chance to T1Ė2 people.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  9. #6169

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by boneclub24 View Post
    So it seems like everyone has moved back off of the 2 Petition build? I'm still liking my 2 Petition 1 RoF 1 PiF build but if I'm not doing myself any favors running that combination I'd like to know.
    Surfinbird19 is still on 2 petitions, so I'd suggest that any list he's playing consistently is likely to give good results. He's not playing rain of filth, although I don't see any issue running it so long as there's 8 discard in the 75 (I may be a little too high on rain of filth, it's actually just one of my favourite cards and I'll play it whenever I can)

    Most of us are just on 2 PiF because it's far more busted than petition and beats counter magic handily. Plus also happens to be great against all the hymn decks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Petition...so I'd favor greater resilience over a better chance to T1Ė2 people.
    To be fair, it can be hard to t1-t2 people with petition anyway just based around the restrictions it places on both your graveyard and your mana

  10. #6170
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I mean, I feel like 2 DP feels more broken than 2 PiF and makes killing early easier since it makes your Ad Naus better and functions better when you have redundant tutors. I turn 1'd D&T this week because it let me tutor for an LED to net +1 mana and turn on my Infernal.

    Maybe I'm just being pig headed. I don't currently have the 8th discard in the deck so that's probably something I need to add.

    Also I haven't seen any talk about this list:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1501692#paper

    Personal Tutor is a very interesting inclusion.
    "If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."

  11. #6171
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    rule #1 in mtg deckbuilding. japanese can do whatever they want.
    -rob

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by boneclub24 View Post
    So it seems like everyone has moved back off of the 2 Petition build? I'm still liking my 2 Petition 1 RoF 1 PiF build but if I'm not doing myself any favors running that combination I'd like to know.
    Have you played 2 pif? If you have played it, like the 2dp list, and are having good result; then seems like it works for you.

  13. #6173

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Hey all. Took down Channel Fireball's 108 Player Legacy 4k last weekend. Played this list:
    15 Lands:
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Misty Rainforest
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Bayou
    1 Swamp
    1 Island
    45 Spells:
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Duress
    4 Ponder
    4 Preordain
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Infernal Tutor
    1 Dark Petition
    2 Past in Flames
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Ad Nauseam
    4 Lionís Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    SB:
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Xantid Swarm
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Hurkylís Recall
    3 Echoing Truth
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Massacre
    1 Empty the Warrens

    I haven't really been playing as much Legacy as I would like because there are so many Modern GPs coming up and I would like to spike them. Thanks to Rodrigo for the list and for all the Storm grinders for testing when I haven't been and sharing their lists with me.
    Here were my pairings:
    R1: 2-0 Shadow 1-0
    R2: 2-0 Grixis Tezzerator 2-0
    R3: 2-0 BUG Nic Fit 3-0
    R4: 1-2 Sneak and Show 3-1
    R5: 2-1 Humans 4-1
    R6: 2-0 Grixis Control 5-1
    R7: 0-0-3 ID with friend 5-1-1
    7th seed in top 8
    QF: 2-0 Merfolk 6-1-1
    SF: 2-0 Lands 7-1-1
    F: 2-0 Sneak and Show (same player from swiss). 8-1-1
    The quarters and finals are on camera on Channel Fireball's twitch.

    Overall I am 70-11 in competitive paper events since DRS and Probe got banned.
    12-0 GP Sacramento sides (if you count these)
    7-2 Channel Fireball 2k (2nd)
    12-3 GP Richmond
    5-0 Eternal Weekend Trial
    12-1 Eternal Weekend Main Event (2nd)
    14-4 SCG Vegas (1st)
    8-1 Channel Fireball 4k (1st)

    Storm is great and the community is great.

  14. #6174
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    What're you playing in modern since I know you don't like storm in that format?
    "If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."

  15. #6175

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Asthereal View Post
    Ugh, that's a dumb one.
    1. We can play around it by just ramping up to four lands.
    2. Zero mana isn't no mana. It's an amount of mana, and the amount is 0.
    Unless they specify in the oracle text that spells that cost 0 mana also get countered.
    Oh got I love you total lack of logic.

    So having no money is not the same as have 0 Dollars/Euro/whatever?

    Thanks for the good laugh over that brainfart

  16. #6176

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by boneclub24 View Post
    What're you playing in modern since I know you don't like storm in that format?
    I have played every combo deck. Top 8d a few smaller (70ish) person events with Storm and played it at GP Santa Clara. I have played a lot of Ad Nauseam as well with a few 5-0s and I played it at GP Portland. I'm probably going to play KCI at GP Oakland though.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by boneclub24 View Post
    I mean, I feel like 2 DP feels more broken than 2 PiF and makes killing early easier since it makes your Ad Naus better and functions better when you have redundant tutors. I turn 1'd D&T this week because it let me tutor for an LED to net +1 mana and turn on my Infernal.
    In my experience, if you're looking to optimize Ad Nauseam the best piece of business to have in doubles is actually Tendrils. I'm with you, though; Petition is the most flexible business spell we have. It's just that you're forced to go all in if you're casting a tutor (with Infernal, because you probs need to crack a Diamond; with Petition, because if your graveyard gets hit or it gets countered, you're down five mana; N.B.: that's also virtually true of Past in Flames). Past in Flames, though it's been undercut by the banning of Probe, both lets you dig using expended cantrips (usually enough to find a win) and gives you resilience against countermagic and, to an extent, Surgical Extraction.

    I still run a Petition, but I've got to confess that I'd probably cut it first for something else.

    If double-Petition is still doing everything you want it to, then by all means, stick with it. I just like the resilience of a second Past in Flames, and requiring multiple rituals is a bigger hurdle these days than I'd initially thought it was when I first started playing Petition. (This speaks to what Fangzie said before.) The only reason I haven't switched it for a maindeck Empty the Warrens is that we're not so good at making more than ten gobbos.

    Quote Originally Posted by boneclub24 View Post
    Maybe I'm just being pig headed. I don't currently have the 8th discard in the deck so that's probably something I need to add.
    I'm only on seven discards main, and for the most part, it feels fine. Got an eighth one in my 'board. I love my Rain of Filth.

    I don't think I'd run Personal Tutor with Probe gone from the format. With that said, I've been giving the eye to Mission Briefing a bit lately.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    How does everyone feel about the main deck empty? It's been nice to have the option to just make goblins. I cut the second PIF for it, but am debating cutting ad naus. That card is just so, so bad without chrome mox (ew).

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory_Sperry View Post
    How does everyone feel about the main deck empty? It's been nice to have the option to just make goblins. I cut the second PIF for it, but am debating cutting ad naus. That card is just so, so bad without chrome mox (ew).
    In my experience, making more than ten goblins on turn 1 is relatively uncommon. I don't think that's something on which we can rely to win us the game except against specific decks that are known to be weak against a horde (Eldrazi, Death's Shadow).

    I might be in the minority, but I think Ad Nauseam is great. And even if it isn't, it's our only reliable way to turn one or two cards into 10.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I am tired of malicious top 8s and it is time to put an end to the practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Almost everyone plays decks that are strictly worse 75s than the top decks - which most people could sleeve up if they wanted to, they just elected not to.

  20. #6180

    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    In all honesty, I'm more worried about what the card says about the state of game design than I am about what it'll actually do in Legacy.
    This, asymmetric hatebears are really dumb imo, the symmetric aspect is provoking deckbuilding and both tactical and strategic concessions, the present line is just easy answers and hosers

    Personal tutor was a joke in 2010 and I cant see why it wouldnt be today

    MD EtW - imo it's so good I based my build around it, rarely missing AdN it's a terrible hit or miss card
    Quote Originally Posted by Dissection View Post
    .

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