Thanks for the update, Jonathan.
Nope, but it did well at the Big Magic Open: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD12967S/
The only game I can remember where the cost of returning a land had any real impact was a game I didn't draw a single ritual and had Ad Nauseam in hand. Not sure which list you are referring to, but I have made some changes since the last on I posted on twitter / the pimp thread: http://deckstats.net/decks/65431/554...orm-15-08-2016
Yes, I am now running more countermagic than discard spells.
Last edited by Jonathan Alexander; 08-23-2016 at 10:06 AM.
Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com
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Great update, Jonathan Alexander!
I'm starting to feel like Daze might have a place, but I didn't really get far when I was testing it a couple of weeks back. It wasn't that it would be a poor choice on turn 2; it was that, if I didn't have it on that turn, the opponents outpaced it. With that having been said, I wasn't facing hatebears that week and I wasn't running a quad of Dazes (2-3, as I recall). How have you found it to perform in the later game? Have you found Daze to stress your LEDs, given that having a land in hand can cause problems with Infernal Tutor?
I saw another card spoiled in Conspiracy that I'm interested to try out, but I was wondering what you all think. Anybody given thought to Subterranean Tremors?
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Daze isn't there to support/protect the LED+IT interaction, but to mess with the opponents turn 1/2 plays like Hymn/Counterbalance/Thalia/DRS/etc. to catch them off-guard, potentially even without any downside if you lack a third land by turn 3 anyways (in terms of landdrops) which can equal to a two-mana-temposwing if your opponent invests two mana plus a card and you deny it for zero mana plus daze. Its function in theory is similar to Flusterstorm, but you don't have to keep mana open and it can hit Counterbalance, Chalice, Thalia unlike the Storm-counterspell.
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Oh, don't get me wrong; I get that it's not really supposed to back up the combo. I was more asking about how well it works at a suboptimal time (sounds strange, I know).
What I was getting at was that countermagic, for all its versatility, has a major flaw: we can't use it against anything that's off the stack. So we need to have Daze open at precisely the right time to remove a threat, but we can use Chain, Decay, etc. anytime after we draw it. We don't need it in hand when they play their bears; we just need to find it before they clock us. So I was wondering whether people found Daze to get in the way or to function well in other situations than the optimal "Daze your Chalice" situations. E.g., when we topdeck it late in the game or when we're trying to go off and we don't have an LED.
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Took down a small local with Rodrigo's list modified to play Daze. - 1 PIF - 1 Bayou - 1 Top +3 Daze. Sb is - 2 fluster +2 Surgical.
2-0 burn. T2 Ad Nauseam from 20. DR, DR, IT revealing DR, DR, DR, IT Hellbent, Ad Nauseam. Haha. G2 t3 Natural Tendrils.
2-0 kuldotha red 8 whack brew (actually just as fast as burn, maybe faster). T3 PIF loop after blind therapy on Goblin Bushwhacker, then T2 natural tendrils.
2-0 elves. G1 He bricks after an insane T2 Glimpse, I kill him on my turn. G2 he mulls to 4 and I have NOTHING after 3 cantrips. I have the PIF kill but I have LED + Tendrils against his active DRS. I rip a Brainstorm like a champ, return my Tendrils to the top, then IT, IT, PIF to play around his DRS.
2-1 RIP miracles(heavily metagamed). With CB Top in play, Tendrils in hand, I Ponder. He triggers on the stack, spins, fetches, I Brainstorm with fetch on the stack. He taps Top to counter Brainstorm, fetches his top away, then blind flips a Brainstorm. I lose to his RIP Helm. G2 I board in 13 cards and play the long game. Natural Tendrils. G3 goes the same way.
I never got to Daze anything relevant except a Jace, and I lost that game. I also Dazed my own Duress vs Burn just to up my Storm count, but I could have done that with any other card. Daze was never bad, though, and would have been great had I actually had any spells to Daze. My opponents just didn't present anything, so I always Brainstormed them away on the combo turn. Will definitely play this list again.
Good show and well done! I have a few questions:
—It looks like you've cut back on business further than Togores has. That means you were running with two fewer business spells than I usually do, so I'm wondering whether you ever felt like you needed more. I'm on 2x PiF, 1x AdN, Tendrils, Petition and I still feel like I can't find what I need sometimes. Was your business setup singletons AdN, Tendrils, PiF?
—How did you hold up with only one PiF against countermagic? The reason I ask is that I noticed that I was doing significantly better against counter-heavy decks after I switched Petition #2 to PiF #2. As an example, I lost every match to Stoneblade before the switch, and I won every match against it afterward.
—Did having Daze help you slow the game down enough that finding business wasn't a problem? Did you feel like you had too much control and not enough Get There with six(?) discards and three Dazes?
Thanks for the report!
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I also had 1 ETW in the maindeck for the Preordain, so it's - 1 land - 2 cantrip - 1 PIF for +3 Daze +1 ETW. Sorry about that. I had ETW in hand once and was going to take a Goblins line against burn but Brainstorm showed me the kill.
Re: countermagic, I wish I could say more about this, but as you can see, my matchups were pretty light on counters. In games 2 and 3 of the miracles matchup, the goal becomes casting Tendrils several times from hand after sculpting a hand, and my opponent was even maindecking RIP. PIF would have been pretty bad against him.
Daze didn't slow me down because I only got to cast it once! My sample size and matches were really bad for actually testing Daze, but at least I know the deck can still go off while having dead Dazes in hand.
No worries! I probably should've inferred that you'd have one somewhere in there; just didn't put two and two together. I've had a lot of similar experiences with Empty myself. I'm keeping it in the 75 because when it works, it works, but it's strange to think that oftentimes hitting storm 6 isn't that much less of a hurdle than hitting storm 10.
Yeah, I jumped the gun with those questions. Just figured I'd ask to see whether you'd seen anything or recalled any instances in which those two build decisions had noteworthy results. I'd be interested to hear more if you get more testing in!
That Miracles build seems interesting/strange, and you're definitely right that PiF doesn't do anything if they land Rest in Peace. I haven't seen a lot of RiPs lately, though that doesn't mean they aren't floating around. I've started to see some Enlightened Tutors in main decks or sideboards (not sure which), and I think RiP is often the payload. Of course, my main difficulty with Miracles at the moment is that Monastery Mentor puts us under the gun pretty quickly.
What I was getting at with my questions re: PiF and Daze was that I was wondering whether the increased number of disruptive spells in your build made for greater resilience against countermagic or made finding PiF less important for your combo's resilience. I was skeptical about the second PiF for a long time (I was on six-tutor until a few months ago), but I've found it to be really useful. If you learn anything in further testing, I'm all ears!
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hi guys! after some games here my results :
Win/Loss and Win-rate
miracle 43-32 57%
infect 2-2 50%
ta 14-10 58%
grixis pyro 20-16 55%
aggro loam 9-5 64%
det 25-15 62%
show 13-11 54%
shard 11-3 78%
junk/jund 6-5 54%
ur 13-8 61%
ant 7-3 70%
eldrazi 11-11 50%
reanimator 8-7 54%
painter 3-3 50%
canadian 8-1 88%
elf 6-5 54%
random 22-15 59%
my list was almost this:
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Bayou
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
if someone is intrested to speak about something i'll be happy to answer
ciao claudio!
how was the tournament Sunday? 119 players, isn'it? did you meet any sanctum prelate, in miracle or D&T?
Hi man, yes i played that tournament but the night before i had a party, a good one near Milano, so i was destroyed (i say only that: i've slept in a bench in the park in front of the tournament centre)
but:
T1 reanimator 2-0
T2 Miracle 1-1
T3 Elf 2-1
T4 Ant 2-0
T5 miracle 2-0
T6 Deathblade 1-2 (lost by one my mistake)
T7 Elf 1-2 (he topdeck both time the 1x of Thalia but i did a mistake so it's fine)
if the tournament wasn't organized by 2 friends of mine i would not play it
Last edited by B88; 08-30-2016 at 05:37 AM.
I had three Thalia in my side both times we played together, I respect Storm a lot :)
Nevertheless, I was exceptionally lucky and you never had the turn 1-2 kill.
In game 2 you had the opportunity to blind name thalia with cabal on turn 1, and I was thinking about discarding it. I played greedly.
Wow! Great info, and well done in that tournament!
I've got a couple of questions/queries about your list and the stats you posted.
—The Elves, Junk/Jund, and Painter win-ratios are lower than I would've expected, but the Eldrazi, Reanimator, and Canadian/RUG Delver ratios are a lot higher (Shardless and Canadian are total blowouts, which is sweet). I'm interested to learn more about why you think this might be. I've not had much experience against Reanimator, but it's clotheslined me every time, and usually by turn 2. Similar problem against Eldrazi.
—How have you liked running double-Preordain and Sensei's Top together in the main? I'm keeping Top in my sideboard for the time being, and I've got Rain of Filth in the maindeck. Main reason I ask is that I still get flooded on cantrips sometimes, though I'm beginning to settle for the double-Preordain at long last and against my preference.
—Why Bayou instead of Tropical Island? Any specific reason? I guess extra black mana is better against Miracles, and I've not had a lot of problems finding the right colors (usually if I have mana problems it's that I just don't find lands), but I'm wondering what you think.
—How much work is Flusterstorm doing? I'm getting more and more to the point that I feel like testing it, but I still feel weird running countermagic in the deck.
—Why two Empty the Warrens? I'm not used to seeing it as a double; usually I see singletons or triples.
—How's the speed on your build? Does double-Tendrils get you many free wins, or does it ever get in the way?
Thanks in advance, and again, well done!
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thx dude! i'll try to answer:
1- about elf,junk and painter i think that might depends about the number of games i did, probably not enough to be rapresentative. about canadian is because i played that deck for years so i know quite well how to fight it. reanimator still a bad mu even if my data say something different, but fluster help. eldrazi MU is like reanimator still bad but EtW is there for this reason
2- that split is fine since i don't want the 7th discard and a high quantity of cantrips is cool when you run 2ToA (Sensei is amazing, you should run it in the main)
3- yeah bayou is there for that reason
4- fluster is the only card i wouldn't never change in my sb. when you run 2/3 toa fluster is the best card to protect your toa and still great when you fight combo and control
5- well sometime is bad sometime is good, depends but still the best win con.
Last edited by B88; 08-31-2016 at 10:32 AM.
Hi Claudio!
I was wondering how you have like 2x ToA 2x PiF and Ad Nauseam all in the main. I guess it's probably comparable and a little less of a hit to your life than a 2x Petition list, but when you AN do you find this to be cumbersome at all? I would imagine in this list you probably Ad Nauseam for value more than for just the win, but I'd like to hear your thoughts. Additionally, I would assume you board out a PiF and a ToA when you bring in the Empty the Warrens, but does Nauseam also come out?
Thanks!
Additional tendrils make better ad nauseams, not worse.
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