@sloshthedark, thx!
Stormriders please explain me in what kind of meta we need two CoV/echoing truth?
I think the 2 Chain of Vapor are my most important/used sideboard cards. It works against almost all forms of permanent hate (I don't board them vs Miracles, but in many many many other matchups). And it has a nice side effect - extra stormcount! Petal - LED - chain of vapor target petal, sac land target led, sac land target opponents permanent X and replay your artifact mana. This is a major upside vs decks like Shardless BUG, when your hand is ripped by discard and you sided in CoV to answer Meddling Mage/Garfdigger's Cage/Null Rod/Deathrite. There are times when people side in a singleton when you're not sure if you need them, and it's still useful. Example: when everyone played Lejay's Omnitell deck with Leylines side or times when Sneaky Show players love to play Leyline, you have many ways to find the singleton CoV vs those decks.Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
What's the boarding plan vs. Miracle? Do you side in both Massacre or just go with decays and grip? Xantid?
I am debating the inclusion of ad nauseam post board, since it can steal games but the risk is high when boarding higher casting cost spells.
Thanks for your hints, Miracle is largely played here and this is the MU I am most confused about regarding proper sideboarding.
Why would you side in Massacre vs Miracles? (Don't be too afraid of Mentors or side Sulfur Elementals instead of your usual D&T hate)
I play 2 Ad Nauseam against Miracles post-board. It's really good against that deck.
I usually side in a single Massacre to answer hate when they have it (canonist) or clean the board when under pressure (mentor but also usual Miracle creatures). I haven't found it a wasted slot, even if probably not needed. Thus my request for help.
Is Teferi's Realm the sick tech yet?
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
I had some luck with it on my local meta so far :)
"Everything is better topless"
I tried it at my weekly. Maybe it's a trap; it works against everything, but isn't as good as a dedicated sideboard card would be in any situation. But it does seem like it opens up a lot of slots. I'm thinking of something like 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Xantid Swarm, 3 Teferi's Realm, 1 Empty the Warrens, 2 Disfigure, 2 Carpet of Flowers, 1 Something Else. I worry that it may not be viable against Death & Taxes since it may quickly become too expensive to cast.
"I'm willing to imagine a TES where Past in Flames replaces Ill-Gotten Gains entirely, and we just don't play Diminishing Returns." - me, 29/09/2011
Founding member of Team Scrubbad: Legacy Legends
New storm player. I fell in love with the deck watching Togores play at Eternal Weekend and after goldfishing and playing a few games with a friend, I decided to build it on modo and start practicing more seriously.
I'm really digging the Adam Prosak and Carsten Kotter articles, even if 4-3 years old, I still find them useful and well written. Do you recommend me any more up to date articles?
the list is LGS tuned and I'd not play the SB otherwise - there is 0-1 respectable Miracles, sometimes 1 CB Mentor AK control but mostly UBx tempo and non-U, I juggle with more KG and Extripate if those guys are around, there is no "proper SBing" I usually go deep into lategame with occasional early EtW kills and board out all LP
I wouldn't board Massacre unless I've seen something like multiple MM postboard, I haven't boarded AdN against Miracles in any setup last year but it's not bad to do so, it's more of a draw X than engine
I wish...
but do not think so...
While reading through the pages of this Thread some days ago I've found a list one of you guys made to look at the MUs where the Grinding Station approach really shines on the one hand and where it means a disadvantage compared to lists with AN MD on the other hand (at least preboard).
As far as I remember especially Miracles, Canadian and Patriot where given in this list as improved MUs, while most of the non-blue / Combo as well as UBx-Delver MUs were listed as slightly harder MUs because you lack speed or can not grind against Discard.
This is not my opinion or experience – after all I dont have any experience with lists not running AN MD – just what others said there.
When looking at your metagame in your LGS you seem to just have a lot more of those MUs where grinding isnt that good (referring to the list / discussion ).
Some questions:
Does the EtW instead of 3rd Tendrils compensate for the lack of AN as another way to go of with few ressources?
And does it make that a big difference against decks like BUG Delver, where Ad Nauseam also isnt that good? I really hate this MU and I think its the worst next to Reanimator...
While I see the benefits of grinding against Miracles postboard when we also have Decay/Grip, I also would like to know if it really improves your preboard games – isnt a race here the saver way without any way to remove CB?
Would like to hear your comment on this and maybe some comments from others here who play Grinding Station as well. I've read many discussions about this also on reddit but they never lead to a clear result. Hope you guys can help me get a better understanding!
Please have in mind that Grinding Station does not differ from ANT due to selections of cards but because of playstyles.
2x Pif and multiple Stormspells does not define Grinding Station (although it is certainly a feature). It's about how and when you play cantrips, what's the role of Infernal (tutor for the win or spell to copy other spells), how do you want to win (classic loop or chain with 8 cards in hand), and so on.
Therefore, be aware so that you can distinguish between Grinding Station and ANT properly and not only because of the lack of Ad Nauseam in certain lists.
To combine it with my answer above: Jonathan Alexander K. has some interesting articles: https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
note that my list is rather rogue, halfway between normal Ant and Grinding station, but I agree with the poster above that the main difference is how you approach your game... my general opinion is that AN is not needed at all outside of Elves, the Mirror and the Hymn MUs - Jund, Sharless, Pox, I'd play it againt 4Hymn UBG ...
imo EtW is waaay better because it provides fast kill with low mana and low storm - which is a weakness of Grinding station, and low life without GY - weakness of AN... both at lower mana investment but sometimes higher risks, I dislike the card but it's too good to ignore
yes, a lot of my wins against UBx come from EtW but tbh it's nearly RL incomparable for me because I rarely play MD Ad Nauseam so it's more what if X was Y and experience what i come from...and I also do not get to play UBG often, I mostly play against Burg - which is my worst MU by far because of his SB and Grixis, I think there is only one guy on BUG localy
I think it's not very different in my case the deck isn't slower at what it does, sometimes you have to take your chances with EtW sometimes you can win even the lategame with good draw (this is rather scarce, but with 3 Toa might be realistic) or dodge CC2 because of more bussiness (I don't know how this lines up with DP, I haven't really played it enough against Miracles)
I don't read reddit, but might be because there is no clear result and it's hard to find anyone who has tested all the versions enough to get near such result
Basically, what Slosh said.
One thing I'd like to add is that the disadvantages of a multiple Tendrils / Past in Flames setup are less pronounced before sideboarding than after and also lower impact than the advantages of said approach. Of course, this is all matchup dependant, and I have taken all multitude of approaches to tournaments in very short periods of time; neither approach is strictly better. My favourite hybrid so far has been the 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames 2 Tendrils & 1 Chrome Mox approach - you get to Ad Nauseam people when needed, but you also get to draw Tendrils more often and have the ability to double Tendrils.
I wanted to say something else, but I forgot. Whatever.
Do you mind posting a link to the reddit discussion about Grinding Station? Would be interested in reading.
Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com
deckstats.net archive
I have been likimg my aproach of g1 nauseam tendrills and 2 pif. Then 2 tendrills sb to just switch your g1 race counterbalance deck to grinding station. Worked well in the testing and mkm madrid (top4-due a misclick) and will be rocking this idea further.
I sill dont like empty and the 1 top 1 preordain + 1 top sb seemed cool. You can side board really good wig this. Taking out fast or slow cards for faster or slowet ones depending on the matchup.
Still hate death and taxes and will never know if dread is better than masaacre. But will rock massacre just because I hate loosing to revoker and canonist.
meanwhile in a parallel universe...
bonus - the classic Enchantress mirror, G1
Sorry for using the wrong term, the lists I referred to are rather hybrids of ANT and the original Grinding Station lists Jonathan introduced in the Grinding Station Thread (with many Storm spells and no infernal tutors maindeck). I just called it Grinding Station because most people seem to do so, but I know that its not correct and also that it means a different way to play the deck (natural Tendrils with 8 cards in hand, playing cantrips in the comboturn to add to the stormcount...).
Yes I agree that EtW is a strong card and especially like it against Delver-Decks and also against D&T (if you cast it early enough) as well as some other decks. I can understand why many Storm players consider it the inferior Storm spell compared to Tendrils, but imho it still gives an advantage in many MUs even preboard.
I think 1 Ad nauseam 1 PiF and 2 storm spells with 2 more Storm Spells in the SB is just what I am searching for as a good compromise!
For the discussion about the different MUs I referred to the list here in the Thread on thesource some 50 pages ago. As for reddit there were different discussions, for example:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...ng_stationant/
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...n_ant_variant/
Double PiF is a strong config and I know that Kai has also top8ed the GP Kyoto with it. But I think I still prefer 2 storm spells instead. Concerning top I will try the 1/1 split with preordain and I will also include more Tendrils in SB to do the postboard grinding-transformation as you do!
To sum up my thoughts I would like to refer to the different MUs I expect to be really relevant and write about my approach to them and the cards I like / don't like to have against them.
I want my list to be as balanced as possible against the following common MUs:
Miracles, Delver (RUG/Grixis/BURG/BUG), Shardless BUG, Death & Taxes, Storm, Elves
For Miracles I think its most important to be prepared for the postboard Game. While I think its not that difficult to race through their preboard defense consisting only of FoW and some slow Counterspells, this approach to the MU isn't good after boarding when they have additional flusterstorms, Canonists, Cliques, RiP and sometimes even Extraction. Ad Nauseam seems not necessary preboard and more storm spells are valuable if we can not go the fast way, but I'm also not sure about trying to grind against them without Decays/Grips. In my SB I want more Tendrils, at least 4 (maybe better 5) outs to counterbalnace (some Split between Decays/Grips). Maybe even own Flusterstorms.
RUG Delver is the MU where I really want as many copies of Tendrils/Empty/ PiF as possible, the same thing does apply to Grixis and BURG since they dont seem to have Discard preboard ( at least the majority of lists). At the same time Ad Nauseam is just bad in this MUs because they put early pressure on my life total, have reach with lightning bolts and Force/Daze/Spell Pierce + wasteland/stifle prevent me from using this engine while still at a passable life total. DRS is annoying but not a „hard“ grave-hate, PiF is still an option.
AN is the first card I take out when boarding. If I dont have them MD I side in more Storm spells here. I dont like bringing in green cards while they are attacking my manabase. What I consider really strong here is EtW since they dont seem to have a lot of ways to handle goblins.
BUG Delver is just a bad MU and I dont really know how to make it that much better. They have early stack interaction and hymnes/Thoughtseizes combined with DRS and early pressure through Delver. Another MU where Empty shines, but AN is bad and Grinding isnt a good option as well.
Shardless BUG on the other hand has discard but not much early stack interaction and not that much early pressure, so I like Ad Nauseam here and also EtW (at least preboard, after boarding they might bring charm/pulse/deluge). Maybe I need some Decays or CoV postboard because of White-Splash for Meddling Mage.
For Death and Taxes I prefer a race preboard and I like having AN and EtW (even with SFM into BS they often can not race this, Bryant Cook presents an interesting scale just about this topic on his website). Postboard they load up on hatebears and I wouldnt want to face them without 3 Dread of Nights. I consider Massacre also a good option, but its dangerous with AN and they can often play around it when thy expect it (what many D&T players seem to do...). Also CoV is good here I think.
In the Mirrormatch and against Elves I want AN already preboard and some flusterstorms postboard – and maybe removal for elves.
Beside these common MUs there are of course a lot more MUs I dont face that often. Concerning AN I do want it preboard against decks like Sneak Show , 12 Post and MUD, while its close to useless against Burn and also probably also not that good against Goblins and Merfolk.
Looking at this overview I think I still want to have AN in my maindeck, although I know that the speed advantage isnt that big compared to lists not running it maindeck. Also I want 2 Storm Spells in the MD, but I'm not sure if 2 Tendrils or a split of 1 Tendrils/1 EtW is more „balanced“/flexible (the config nevilshute runs in his current videos minus DP ) . Without a second copy of Tendrils in the MD I would not be able to tutor for double Tendrils preboard, but I would still have a much higher chance of drawing into a Storm Spell and just play it from my hand with goblins often being nearly as good as Tendrils against Delver. And having Empty preboard gives more speed/ options.
Beside this config of 1 AN / 1 PiF / 2 Storm Spells I think I want to have at least one card that improves Ad Nauseam (Rain of Filth and / or Chrome Mox).
Please feel free to comment and correct me if my views on the MUs or the cards I talked about are not adequate or even wrong. I appreciate every help/advice.
[QUOTE=Sloshthedark;926838]meanwhile in a parallel universe...
Sloshthedark,
Please post a photo of your list in the pimp thread. That's a nice looking deck! Makes me feel cheap with my FBB duals.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post790142
Thanks, the duals are altered Unlimited though...
Thanks, damn I'm still missing on jap foil CoV =/ also the Alpha Bolts have risen in price a bit, I'll never finish the set...
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