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Thread: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    I had the exact opposite experience, TES got a lot better since - both in disruption and BS+fetchland effectivity to be a favourite now but It wasn't my impression back then, Silence was usualy very pasive card... I've never lost to TES with ANT but lost my fair share with TES to ANT

    but it was definitely interesting, also had a 7 chant DDFT in the LGS back in the day, good old times...
    I agree. Silence was the absolute noob-check in the old Storm mirror and pretty much the same Flusterstorm does for ANT these days, if people decide to run it (or Mindbreak Trap for non-blue decks): It loses 95% of effectiveness once your opponent is aware of it and it got totally pointless after the printing of Gitaxian Probe to check for such cards without spending cards or mana (unlike discard). Only total idiots comboed right in the face of a Silence versus TES and I only remember that happend twice since I picked up TES, so i sure don't buy Silence as a boon in the storm mirror.

    Silence was a card to battle conditional counters like Stifle, Spell Snare, Envelop, etc. and bait hardcounters like FoW, but got pointless during 2013 with the metashift from pure reactive solutions for storm to Dual hate in Form of either discard+counter or hatebear+counter, which pure discard can handle better than the reactive Silence/Chant as cards like Therapy can hit Hymn, FoW and Thalia without (timing) restrictions. The shift from Silence/Chant to Duress/Therapy and the cut of white mana obviously improved the manabase, the effectiveness of cantrips and certain playlines/interactions like the 4x Therapy + EtW one

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I agree. Silence was the absolute noob-check in the old Storm mirror and pretty much the same Flusterstorm does for ANT these days, if people decide to run it (or Mindbreak Trap for non-blue decks): It loses 95% of effectiveness once your opponent is aware of it and it got totally pointless after the printing of Gitaxian Probe to check for such cards without spending cards or mana (unlike discard).
    This statement might be true, but it is incomplete. Silence effects and Flusterstorm are very good when Top is involved.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    So what's the thinking right now about how our deck does against TES? One of the reasons I ask is that I've been wanting to try both variants (just need two more Burning Wishes) and I'm wondering what the prevailing wisdom is right now.

    Preliminarily it looks like our using Tendrils as the primary win can get us where we need to be as quickly as TES can (we don't need attack steps to Tendrils), assuming of course that TES doesn't play fast Therapy into Empty or nut-draw into AdN/sideboard Tendrils. Also it looks like we get better odds of getting there the longer the game goes on without TES's comboing. We've also got a virtually identical discard package, so I'm not sure we'd be at an advantage if all else were equal. What's everyone else think at this point?

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    So what's the thinking right now about how our deck does against TES? One of the reasons I ask is that I've been wanting to try both variants (just need two more Burning Wishes) and I'm wondering what the prevailing wisdom is right now.

    Preliminarily it looks like our using Tendrils as the primary win can get us where we need to be as quickly as TES can (we don't need attack steps to Tendrils), assuming of course that TES doesn't play fast Therapy into Empty or nut-draw into AdN/sideboard Tendrils. Also it looks like we get better odds of getting there the longer the game goes on without TES's comboing. We've also got a virtually identical discard package, so I'm not sure we'd be at an advantage if all else were equal. What's everyone else think at this point?
    So, first of all I wouldn't use the strength of each deck in the storm mirror to decide anything. If anything it should be how well each deck does vs the rest of the field.

    I *think* the generel consensus is, that TES is best vs non-blue decks, decks with hatebears and hateful permanents and ANT is stronger vs blue, counter-decks. This is an oversimplification to be sure but something to use as a starting point. TES is faster and is the better Ad Nauseam deck. ANT is better at using Past in Flames and with that comes more inherent resiliency to counter spells that. Each deck has it's zealots that think one is clearly better than the other. I'm guessing Bryant Cook will tell you that TES is just the better deck.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    This statement might be true, but it is incomplete. Silence effects and Flusterstorm are very good when Top is involved.
    Talking about incomplete: It also counts for Xantid Swarm. Flusterstorm still voids the use of LED and SDT can be handled with Needle or eot Decays as well. Many paths lead to rome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    So what's the thinking right now about how our deck does against TES? One of the reasons I ask is that I've been wanting to try both variants (just need two more Burning Wishes) and I'm wondering what the prevailing wisdom is right now.

    Preliminarily it looks like our using Tendrils as the primary win can get us where we need to be as quickly as TES can (we don't need attack steps to Tendrils), assuming of course that TES doesn't play fast Therapy into Empty or nut-draw into AdN/sideboard Tendrils. Also it looks like we get better odds of getting there the longer the game goes on without TES's comboing. We've also got a virtually identical discard package, so I'm not sure we'd be at an advantage if all else were equal. What's everyone else think at this point?
    ANT vs. TES is pretty miserable in both ways, decided by who can delay their opponents critical turn long enough with discard or who has the nut draw. In regards to the discard topic, the increased number of cantrips sure helps finding Duress/Therapy. ANT is also better suited for topdeck wars due to stronger Rituals, PIF being discard-proof and an increased redundancy of quality cards (via more cantrips) instead of limited substitutes like Burning Wish.

    If you are on the draw and/or have no T1 discard vs TES, it however looks pretty grim due to speed reasons (best case scenario for you is "just" needing to race Tokens)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Talking about incomplete: It also counts for Xantid Swarm. Flusterstorm still voids the use of LED and SDT can be handled with Needle or eot Decays as well. Many paths lead to rome.
    I was referring to the Storm mirror only, which I thought you were referring to as well. I hope we all agree that Xantid Swarm, Needle and Decay are too narrow for the Storm mirror.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    I was referring to the Storm mirror only, which I thought you were referring to as well. I hope we all agree that Xantid Swarm, Needle and Decay are too narrow for the Storm mirror.
    When you were talking about SDT, I really did not get the idea that you talk about the storm Mirror with an average of 0-1 SDT in ANT lists
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I had the most enjoyable match against miracles that I've had for a looooong time. I'm back to a list resembling my GP Lille list with 2x past in flames, 2x tendrils, 1x empty in the main. I played a bit fast and loose but it was so much fun... the feel-good storm vs miracles movie of the year! I even found room for an OGW card in the sideboard. Enjoy:

    https://youtu.be/XdnGtzbS5U8

    Another video made with the same list playing against a bit of a weird UR Delver list:

    https://youtu.be/CDC_VOb-cZ4

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by nevilshute View Post
    So, first of all I wouldn't use the strength of each deck in the storm mirror to decide anything. If anything it should be how well each deck does vs the rest of the field.

    I *think* the generel consensus is, that TES is best vs non-blue decks, decks with hatebears and hateful permanents and ANT is stronger vs blue, counter-decks. This is an oversimplification to be sure but something to use as a starting point. TES is faster and is the better Ad Nauseam deck. ANT is better at using Past in Flames and with that comes more inherent resiliency to counter spells that. Each deck has it's zealots that think one is clearly better than the other. I'm guessing Bryant Cook will tell you that TES is just the better deck.
    Oh, don't get me wrong; I know that matchups against other decks are at least as important. I was just wondering about the specific matchup because I tend to read (for what it's worth) that people say TES is faster. I've only played a Storm versus Storm game once so it's a matchup with which I don't have much of any experience (I think the opponent was on TES but he may have been playing a hybrid). Again, I think I just lucked into quick hand disruption that kept him off the mana he needed, so I was curious as to whether it's usually a troublesome matchup, or whether their (supposedly slightly better) speed doesn't tend to avail them of much.

    Also, awesome vid versus Miracles! I like that sideboard tech, even if it looked like you got a bit lucky with the opponent's not stopping your Ritual. Keep us posted if you discover anything further!

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong; I know that matchups against other decks are at least as important. I was just wondering about the specific matchup because I tend to read (for what it's worth) that people say TES is faster. I've only played a Storm versus Storm game once so it's a matchup with which I don't have much of any experience (I think the opponent was on TES but he may have been playing a hybrid). Again, I think I just lucked into quick hand disruption that kept him off the mana he needed, so I was curious as to whether it's usually a troublesome matchup, or whether their (supposedly slightly better) speed doesn't tend to avail them of much.

    Also, awesome vid versus Miracles! I like that sideboard tech, even if it looked like you got a bit lucky with the opponent's not stopping your Ritual. Keep us posted if you discover anything further!
    Sorry for nitpicking. You say "at least as important" but I would contend that it is way more important how well your combo deck does against the other top decks of the format and not in the corner-case mirrors. I'm way more comfortable playing ANT than TES and I happen to think ANT is better situated - at least the way I play it -fight stuff like delver and miracles. As such I couldn't really care less if I was 20/80 vs TES, a deck which I am quite unlikely to face as it is a deck that isn't played very much in the main stream these days (correct me if I'm wrong, this is my impression without checking hard data). So by no means should you, in my opinion, be making decisions on which deck to play based on which one of TES or ANT has the upper hand in the TES vs ANT matchup.

    Also, regarding the Sphinx play I wouldn't say I was lucky that they didn't counter the ritual or the petal as it would be pretty unexpected (I had a full grip and four lands, why would you waste a hard counter on the first Dark Ritual - that kind of thing). I think I did ride my luck in that matchup, first by them making a mess of their counterbalance/top lock in game one and brainstorm hitting LED and then, for game two, in drawing as many decays/grips as they drew CBs and then, of course, by actually top-decking the sphinx right when the game was in the balance

    Having had a day to think some more about the Sphinx I think Terminus could be a big issue going forward. I face plenty of miracles players as it is that leave in some number of Terminus post board, especially if I've shown them Empty in game one. Now, them having access to Terminus isn't the same as saying the Sphinx shouldn't be played but if Sphinx ever becomes a thing and miracles players have it on their radar then it seems rather likely that they will value keeping in (more) Terminus post board and playing towards being able to access one.... that might not necessarily be a bad thing as that will decrease their overall effenciency (even if only slightly), but it is a pretty big blow out if they ever get to terminus the sphinx... Sphinx is almost guaranteed to be at least 2 cards for us (a ritual and the sphinx itself) and I don't know if we can recover that kind of 2-for-1 / time walk.

    Continuing to run Sphinx might even call for us to want to start running pithing needle in the board. It means we have to eschew our own tops but 2 needle against miracles is a fine place to be. Needle on top means they will have a much, much harder time setting up a terminus and will just in general screw up their strategy against us something fierce as top is a beast for them. At that point the sphinx might end up as win-more and if we are using needle already it might be better paired with a city of solitude which is significantly easier to land than the sphinx and offers a similar kind of effect, that's not counting sphinx bossyness as a 5/5 flyer though. Needle also has auxiliary uses against deathrites etc. Hmm, something to think about it.

    Anyway, thanks for watching and commenting!

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by nevilshute View Post
    Sorry for nitpicking. You say "at least as important" but I would contend that it is way more important how well your combo deck does against the other top decks of the format and not in the corner-case mirrors. I'm way more comfortable playing ANT than TES and I happen to think ANT is better situated - at least the way I play it -fight stuff like delver and miracles. As such I couldn't really care less if I was 20/80 vs TES, a deck which I am quite unlikely to face as it is a deck that isn't played very much in the main stream these days (correct me if I'm wrong, this is my impression without checking hard data). So by no means should you, in my opinion, be making decisions on which deck to play based on which one of TES or ANT has the upper hand in the TES vs ANT matchup.
    You're right; I think we started talking past each other. Was just wondering about the matchup because I've played against a lot of BUGs and Miracles lately and I was curious about how to beat a (maybe slightly faster) combo deck.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Are there other matchups in which these cards have been particularly useful? What does the rest of your sideboard look like at the moment? One of the reasons I ask is related to my previous few posts.
    I mix it up regularly, but last time I played storm I was trying sideboards like the ones from MKM.

    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Chain of Vapor
    4 Abrupt Decay
    1 Carpet of Flowers
    1 Xantid Swarm
    1 Dread of Night
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Sensei's Divining Top

    Flusterstorm is absolutely the best card you can have against Show and Tell decks, and I'm including Xantid Swarm here. Especially potent is Fluster + Surgical. Flusterstorm is obviously good against almost all combo decks. It's also fine to bring in against Hymn decks.

    Surgical is good against graveyard decks and combo decks. I don't bring it in against Miracles. Because of this I think it's worse than Flusterstorm, but our worst combo matchups are fast and graveyard-based - Reanimator and Oops. With the combination of both, Storm can legitimately position itself to be the combo-control deck against Reanimator who is typically forced into the aggressor. Post-board the reanimator player usually doesn't realize that and their board plan matches up poorly. That and a decent helping of luck is how I've beaten so many Reanimator players.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Still talking about the Miracles matchup, I was wondering about some number of Bitterblossom in the sideboard. I mean, it's a low investment card that, if resolved, put pressure on they to lay down a fast clock, keep forcing terminus, and, unlike Young Pyromancer and Mentor, is very hard to be responded in a clean way (they usually don't keep Council's ou Wear/Tear postboard). Oh, also, it can't be hit by Flusterstorm.

    So, what do you guys think about this possibility?

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Maikhell View Post
    Still talking about the Miracles matchup, I was wondering about some number of Bitterblossom in the sideboard. I mean, it's a low investment card that, if resolved, put pressure on they to lay down a fast clock, keep forcing terminus, and, unlike Young Pyromancer and Mentor, is very hard to be responded in a clean way (they usually don't keep Council's ou Wear/Tear postboard). Oh, also, it can't be hit by Flusterstorm.

    So, what do you guys think about this possibility?
    It's an incredible slow kill condition, plus dies to Izzet Staticaster as well as the Spell Snare, which is becoming more and more prevalent in the miracles lists.

    If you want a creature card, I'd much rather have mentor (power level) or Pyromannen (Speed), as both cards kill much, much faster than bitterblossom.

    Miracles will usually board in some number Wear//Tear, if not only because of counterbalance curve.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I have actually tried Bitterblossom and I didn't like it. It's too slow even if you land it turn two and does next to nothing if you only resolve turn five or so. Not that it's better or worse than any of the other creature cards, I really don't like any of them.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    after an ill-advised fling with RUG lands I'm back on combo. and lemme tell you, the Mentor/Bob plan in TinFins is bonkers.

    I guess what I'm saying is: +1 to Monastery Mentor if you really want to catch them off-guard.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by nevilshute View Post
    That was quite the game one.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by warfordium View Post
    after an ill-advised fling with RUG lands I'm back on combo. and lemme tell you, the Mentor/Bob plan in TinFins is bonkers.

    I guess what I'm saying is: +1 to Monastery Mentor if you really want to catch them off-guard.
    I feel that the "man-plan" is very high variance. And mind you I'm currently testing Sphinx of the Final Word vs Miracles so I'm not against trying out weird stuff. I've run Pyromancers and Bobs before. Haven't tried mentor yet but off the bat I'm not a fan.

    I primarily consider each of these creatures against Miracles. That they might have uses in other matchups is a clear secondary thing for me. When your opponent is unprepared then each of these creatures can wreck them. However, every Miracles player knows (or should know) that creatures have had a place in storm sideboards since forever, be it Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant or one of the grow creatures. They know that these types of creatures can wreck them so they leave in swords to plowshares and potentially also bring in other types of answers like Engineered Explosives, Izzit Staticaster or the likes.

    If you bring in a creature and it immediately trades with a plowshares then that's pretty bad for you. You've traded a high impact card from your hand with a nonsense card from their hand that has no usefulness against your actual combo.

    Of course there will be feel-good stories with grow creatures but I feel like they are too high variance for my taste.
    Last edited by nevilshute; 02-03-2016 at 10:01 AM.

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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by nevilshute View Post
    I feel that the "man-plan" is very high variance. And mind you I'm currently testing Sphinx of the Final Word vs Miracles so I'm not against trying out weird stuff. I've run Pyromancers and Bobs before. Haven't tried mentor yet but off the bat I'm not a fan.
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Don't mean to lay into people, but I feel like most of the man-plan suggestions have one big problem: they tend to be aiming to do what Empty the Warrens does at a fraction of the speed. For the sake of argument, why wouldn't one run four copies of Empty instead of any number of Mentors (Gaddock notwithstanding)?

    Maikhell may be onto something with Bitterblossom simply because it's an enchantment and dodges Terminus. I'm not sold on the card's viability, though, because there's no way to increase the rate of token generation, and life-loss is a problem if we can't keep the pressure on. It does give me a (probably terrible) idea, though: anybody interested in trolling maximally by testing a copy of Assemble the Legion?

    I'm not too enthusiastic about running creatures (incl. Xantid Swarm) or turn-based token generation in our sideboard at all. How much can we really expect to hedge out decks that board out their removal? If they're running blue, we're not going to have an easy time anyway (counterspells), and if they aren't, none of the creatures discussed so far will be able to keep pace with DRS, Tarmo, Batterskull, Banana King, etc. I can see some merit to running a copy or two of Xantid, but I don't know that it's worth it. It's a counter-magnet for cmc1, so that's something, but again, that's all I've ever seen it do.

    Warfordium, thanks for the info regarding Mentor and Bob. I feel like those are much more viable in the other deck than they are here, though. Someone tried a quad of Mentors in the sideboard a few months ago and it didn't go all that well. Can you elaborate on the thinking/strategy behind Mentor and Bob in the Tin-Fins deck? I've never played Tin-Fins, but I'm guessing that G-brand's card advantage probably plays a pretty big part in making Mentor tick. Keep us posted!

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