[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Jonathan Alexander]

Don't mean to lay into people, but I feel like most of the man-plan suggestions have one big problem: they tend to be aiming to do what Empty the Warrens does at a fraction of the speed. For the sake of argument, why wouldn't one run four copies of Empty instead of any number of Mentors (Gaddock notwithstanding)?

Maikhell may be onto something with Bitterblossom simply because it's an enchantment and dodges Terminus. I'm not sold on the card's viability, though, because there's no way to increase the rate of token generation, and life-loss is a problem if we can't keep the pressure on. It does give me a (probably terrible) idea, though: anybody interested in trolling maximally by testing a copy of Assemble the Legion?

I'm not too enthusiastic about running creatures (incl. Xantid Swarm) or turn-based token generation in our sideboard at all. How much can we really expect to hedge out decks that board out their removal? If they're running blue, we're not going to have an easy time anyway (counterspells), and if they aren't, none of the creatures discussed so far will be able to keep pace with DRS, Tarmo, Batterskull, Banana King, etc. I can see some merit to running a copy or two of Xantid, but I don't know that it's worth it. It's a counter-magnet for cmc1, so that's something, but again, that's all I've ever seen it do.

Warfordium, thanks for the info regarding Mentor and Bob. I feel like those are much more viable in the other deck than they are here, though. Someone tried a quad of Mentors in the sideboard a few months ago and it didn't go all that well. Can you elaborate on the thinking/strategy behind Mentor and Bob in the Tin-Fins deck? I've never played Tin-Fins, but I'm guessing that G-brand's card advantage probably plays a pretty big part in making Mentor tick. Keep us posted!

You have to differentiate between creatures that are there to beat (Pyromancer; Bitterblossom) and creatures that synergise with our general game plan (Xantid Swarm; Dark Confidant). With regards to the first group, I completely agree with your notion about Empty being faster and just generally leaner.
Still, even the spell creatures (let's call 'em that) are susceptible to removal, as you pointed out, and thus shouldn't be brought in the hopes your opponents board out all their removal. However, I really don't like any of the creatures against fair decks. In combo mirrors these creatures are amazing though, because blue combo decks traditionally don't have very many ways to interact with these creatures, and if my Sneak & Show opponent boards in Pyroclasm to deal with my Xantid Swarms, that's perfectly fine with me - it's not a very efficient way to kill a one mana creature and if they draw it while I don't have Swarm, that's fine with me. They might Brainstorm it away and open themselves up for a future Swarm or they keep a dead card in their hand.
It's also worth noting that, ironically, most combo decks have worse filtering than Miracles, so Miracles gets away with both playing less removal spells and drawing more than other decks.

Also, I don't think Assemble will ever make the cut. It was amazing in Standard, but I haven't even managed to make it work in Modern. The effect is insanely good though.

[jayce]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

[Lemnear]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

I'd say the only reason to pick up 2 Islands is, if you play a significant amount of preordains in your list, so turn two double cantripping is a regular move. The matter of 14 vs 15 is one of the metagame structure (manadenial) and your SB configuration (colors aka maybe Bayou and Tropical, as well as manacost in case of K.Grips for example)

[Jonathan Alexander]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

I actually consider the second Swamp far more impactful than the second Island, but to the best of my knowledge, only Pascal, Kai and myself have tried that. It makes all Wasteland matchups considerably better, especially Delver matchups. Going up to 16 lands is also quite good in some matchups. I like it against Miracles, but it's most useful against decks that barely see play anymore, like Canadian and UWR Delver.
Overall, it really depends on what you expect to go up against, as Lemnear said. I wouldn't want to start 16 lands currently. 15 lands is a very solid middle ground and 14 lands is perfectly fine when you're going for short games anyway. There's also Chrome Mox, which barely sees play, but can be a land with upside.

[Sloshthedark]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

14 is playable, originally my 61st card was a land to end the dilemma, I prefer to stay on 15 and to SB up/down into 14/16,

I fear 2 islands like a lepper, it's a generally worse setup imo

[Lemnear]

14 is playable, originally my 61st card was a land to end the dilemma, I prefer to stay on 15 and to SB up/down into 14/16,

I fear 2 islands like a lepper, it's a generally worse setup imo

It solves some issues with cantrip heavy hands, like if one opts to go the direction of the old 16 cantrip list

[Ronald Deuce]

What is everyone's personal thoughts on 14 or 15 lands? Also, is 2 islands with 14 lands questionable, or just super set in stone?

I used to be really torn about whether to run a fifteenth land in the maindeck, but lately I haven't been having mana problems on fourteen. I'm running two Islands maindeck and a Badlands instead of a Volcanic Island for now (until I can get the Volc) and I haven't had mana problems in a while. It's been a little while since the last Legacy tournament around here, so I can't say definitively whether mana screw's still an issue, but I'm probably going to stick with fourteen for the time being.

The reason I was on the fence for so long was that, regardless of the number of times I shuffled, I just kept hitting land after land when I was on fifteen. I'm getting my hands on Rain of Filth later today, so I may try it out again. I'm going to try 1x Preordain, 1x Rain first because I don't like cantripping into two cantrips and a land. I may switch out my third Duress as well.

[Sloshthedark]

like if one opts to go the direction of the old 16 cantrip list

it's a generally worse setup imo

I used to be really torn about whether to run a fifteenth land in the maindeck, but lately I haven't been having mana problems on fourteen. I'm running two Islands maindeck and a Badlands instead of a Volcanic Island for now (until I can get the Volc) and I haven't had mana problems in a while. It's been a little while since the last Legacy tournament around here, so I can't say definitively whether mana screw's still an issue, but I'm probably going to stick with fourteen for the time being.

The reason I was on the fence for so long was that, regardless of the number of times I shuffled, I just kept hitting land after land when I was on fifteen. I'm getting my hands on Rain of Filth later today, so I may try it out again. I'm going to try 1x Preordain, 1x Rain first because I don't like cantripping into two cantrips and a land. I may switch out my third Duress as well.

the 1 land difference is so small you'd hardly notice at first sight (only color availability if relevant), you can mark the sleeve of the substitute card to evaluate the difference

[Patrunkenphat7]

The discussion of 2 Island vs 2 Swamp vs only 1 of each is interesting. I don't think 2 Swamp is ever that useful because in the turn you want to use a 2nd black off your lands you are usually going off and can just fetch out the Sea. 2nd Island has been very useful for me against Delver decks where I want to hoard lands. I often find myself going off with 2 Island, 1 Swamp, and fetch in play the turn I go off.

[CabalTherapy]

The discussion of 2 Island vs 2 Swamp vs only 1 of each is interesting. I don't think 2 Swamp is ever that useful because in the turn you want to use a 2nd black off your lands you are usually going off and can just fetch out the Sea. 2nd Island has been very useful for me against Delver decks where I want to hoard lands. I often find myself going off with 2 Island, 1 Swamp, and fetch in play the turn I go off.

The issue here is that it's again related to the idea of Grinding Station's playstyle. A second swamp helps to make wastelandproof landdrops to prepare a late comboturn, where more black sources to start casting rituals against potential counterspells are quite useful. I haven't tried it myself because my SBs contain wide ranges of green cards which demand Bayou alongside Tropical. (+ I don't play Grinding Station)

[Jonathan Alexander]

The issue I have with the second Island is that it's quite often dead in the combo turn. The second Swamp at least casts relevant spells. But honestly, I think the second Swamp is a relic of the past; it's best against Stifle + Wasteland decks, where sometimes they tap out, but you still can't afford to get Wasted. As CabalTherapy said, it's best when you want to grind. I'd also like pointing out that I have never played the second Swamp without running 16 lands in my 75.

[Lemnear]

The issue I have with the second Island is that it's quite often dead in the combo turn. The second Swamp at least casts relevant spells.

Depends on if you opt to cast cantrips in your combo turn (natural spellchain) or if you consider starting your manaacceleration with Cabal Ritual rather or in place of Dark Ritual

[Ronald Deuce]

Depends on if you opt to cast cantrips in your combo turn (natural spellchain) or if you consider starting your manaacceleration with Cabal Ritual rather or in place of Dark Ritual

One thing I've started to do is to try to keep a blue source open (if I've got the time to develop my lands) during my combo turn just in case I need another way to find cards or increase my storm count. This seems especially important if we're relying on Ad Nauseam because a Brainstorm can help dump lands if we need to rely on Infernal to win. It doesn't hurt to play like you've got Flusterstorm backup, too, I think (even if one isn't running Flusterstorm!).

I have a couple of unrelated questions/thoughts:

I'm testing with Rain of Filth and I really like it. It seems pretty vulnerable to a few things, though. For people who are running it, when do you board it out? Against heavy land-hate would seem most logical, but when else is it a real dud? If people are boarding it in, what are they replacing? I'm torn between replacing a Preordain, a Duress, and a sixth tutor (n.b.: I'm currently running 2x Preordain, 2x Duress, 2x Petition, 1x Rain, AdN, PiF, Tendrils, 0x Empty).

Now I'm going waaay out on a limb with this, so if it's been tested and rejected, just say the word: has anybody tried Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver against Miracles? Just realized that it costs three (a tough slot for Countertop) and can probably play havoc with Sensei's Top. Also, it doesn't require green mana, which has been a big sticking point for me regarding a number of sideboard cards. I'm still a huge fan of Abrupt Decay and KGrip is also really heavy-duty, but I just got to thinking that if we don't have to worry about a quick clock, it might be really useful to eat some cards our opponent cantripped to stack. I also realized that getting a lucky hit can give us a pretty beastly creature versus Reanimans, if a little more slowly than we'd like. And if nothing else, it could pick off nasty singletons like Iona or Sire of Insanity.

Any and all discussion and feedback is welcome!

[thefringthing]

I board out Rain of Filth against basically everything, along with the other flex slots. Something's got to come out.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I have never boarded out Rain and I'm fairly sure I haven't boarded out a Dark Ritual either.

Regarding Ashiok, it's a sweet idea, but I doubt it's more impactful than City of Solitude. Also gets countered by more things. City might actually be decent now, with Spell Pierce being almost non-existent in the metagame.

[jayce]

How will this new card affect us? Should we be somewhat worried?

[Miscanthus]

How will this new card affect us? Should we be somewhat worried?

At a glance I'm not too worried. The delirium requires four different card types in the caster's own graveyard, rather than checking all graveyards as a Tarmogoyf does. For a deck wanting an Envelop effect (Delver based decks mostly, from what I've seen) this seems like it would be difficult to achieve in time against us. For such a deck, getting three card types in one's own graveyard is doable (land, instant, sorcery) but getting a creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker by by turn 3-4 or so is a tall order...

[Lemnear]

At a glance I'm not too worried. The delirium requires four different card types in the caster's own graveyard, rather than checking all graveyards as a Tarmogoyf does. For a deck wanting an Envelop effect (Delver based decks mostly, from what I've seen) this seems like it would be difficult to achieve in time against us. For such a deck, getting three card types in one's own graveyard is doable (land, instant, sorcery) but getting a creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker by by turn 3-4 or so is a tall order...

Depends on what will see this keyword other than this card. Street Wraith is still a thing

[taconaut]

Hey all,

I made the top eight of a small (19 people) Philadelphia Legacy series event last Saturday, and wanted to write it up and ask some questions.

Here's my list for reference:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Dread of Night
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens

Pretty standard, as far as I can tell, though the sideboard definitely needs work (suggestions welcome).

First round: Bye
Goldfish are a notoriously easy matchup for Storm.
1-0; 2-0 in games (sorta)

Second Round: Eric on Burn
I had actually spent a good deal of time chatting with Eric up near the counter before last round ended while on a bye; I didn't realize until sitting down and him opening on "Chain Lightning your face, go" why that might be. First game he has Eidolon relatively quickly, and I cantrip into mostly other cantrips, and have no way to remove it, so we move to game two. The second game is much the same: a discard spell early on finds a Price of Progress, but an unanswered Eidolon off the top again seals the deal quickly, as I don't find any answers.

-1 Therapy, -1 Preordain, +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Abrupt Decay; I may have fit one more Chain in, but I don't remember what I took out. I do recall noticing after that I had failed to board out SDT, which I probably should've.
1-1; 2-2 in games

Third Round: Gonzalo on UG Post (nicely foiled)
I actually knew what Gonzalo was on going into the match, as he had been the last to finish the prior round. The first game I think I won with a Past in Flames loop after taking a show and tell with discard; he didn't draw much interaction that game. Second game, I was unable to find a chain of vapor to bounce his leyline of sanctity. He then had enough time to get the new kozilek out, and after that it was lights out (discarding land to counter LED isn't quite the same as revealing a fetch on top to counterbalance it, but they both feel pretty bad). Third game, I believe he mulled to four, kept, and I decided to play the odds and went for a turn one Ad Nauseam, figuring if he had the Force, I'd be out several cards, but he would be on whatever two were left over, and I'd have time to set up for a Past in Flames loop later. Turns out, he didn't have any free interaction, and I got there with the Ad Naus.

-3 Therapy, +2 CoV, +1 Abrupt Decay. I may have added another CoV for the third game after whiffing in game two.
2-1; 4-3 in games

Fourth Round: Jeremy on Miracles
I also sat next to Jeremy during round 2, so I knew he was on Miracles and he knew I was on Storm. As a consequence, he made a nice play to start (and perhaps I misstepped) by opening with land, go, then spell piercing my duress. In hindsight, it might've been wrong to go for the discard, but as I recall, I didn't have any other turn one plays than "land, go" and really didn't want to see the counterbalance come down on turn two. Turns out he had it, as well as a few more lands, a Jace, and a Force, and took the rest of the game handily. I played it out for the most part to get a little better sense of his deck, as he was playing pretty briskly, but based on how it went, I think I probably should've conceded to give myself a little more time on the clock. Game two after board was much different, and centered around two Carpet of Flowers that produced a crazy amount of mana by the end of the game. Unfortunately, during one attempt to combo, he flipped a Venser to counter my Past in Flames, and I had to wait to try again next turn. I made another attempt in the following turn after he had drawn the Venser, and knowing he didn't have interaction outside of counter-top and the Venser, I misplayed by infernal tutoring for abrupt decay to deal with counterbalance, and then cast the PiF in my grave to have it Vensered, forgetting that a flashback spell that gets remanded is still exiled. If I had gotten the other Past in Flames instead of the abrupt decay, I likely could've played around the venser and got him, but I incorrectly over-estimated the possibility that he could have another four-mana spell on top of his library and counter my past in flames multiple times. I found out after the game that he had boarded all of his Jaces out.

How do people feel about Carpet of Flowers in this matchup? I felt as though it did some work for me in this game and could've won it if I had played better, but I feel like I bring in a ton of green cards/board cards against miracles, and yet don't feel much more comfortable.

-2 Preordain, -1 Swamp, -1 Cabal Ritual, -1 Lotus Petal, -3 Cabal Therapy, -2 Duress; +1 PiF, +2 Xantid Swarm, +2 Carpet of Flowers, +1 Dread of Night (I saw Mentors in his earlier games, but got beat down by clique and snaps with a DoN in play, #irony), +1 Chain of Vapor, +3 Abrupt Decay. I definitely need to tips for this matchup.
2-2, 4-5 in games

Fifth Round: Chris on UG Post (two post matches in a 19 player tournament, how about that?)
Chris was understandably a bit disappointed that we'd have to play, as he was 3-1, and could've drawn if my record were a bit better. Unfortunately, we couldn't this time, so we went for it (plus, I wanted to play, the more Legacy the better). The first game, discard revealed that his only interaction was a repeal, and I was able to get him with a safe Ad Nauseam. The second game was a bit more entertaining, as a series of Glimmerposts put him to 41 life before I could empty his hand of countermagic and crop rotations to go off. Once I did, I used past in flames, tutors, and cantrips to work my way up to the necessary 22 storm before firing off the lethal tendrils. Fortunately, he still made Top 8, so it turned out alright for the both of us.

-1 Preordain, -1 Cabal Therapy; +1 Chain of Vapor, +1 Abrupt Decay (I find myself doing this a lot when I don't know the matchup, and it feels lazy. How do you all approach boarding in games where you figure you mostly want to do what you did in game one, but still have outs to whatever hate they might have?)
3-2, 6-5 in games

By this time, I am pleasantly surprised to find my (basically sub 50%, since the bye didn't really require any work) win rate is good enough for a top 8, and meet the other seven to get ready. Unfortunately, one of the eight of us doesn't want to split; they had reduced the prize pool when the event was under-attended, he had driven two hours to play, and felt his deck was well-matched for the top-8, so I do understand.

Round Six: Tom on Hex Depths
The first game, we trade discard for a bit and I eventually come out on top, using a tutor chain to avoid getting bogged by the crop rotation in his hand. Game two, I end up at the following place:

Me: hand of ITx2, DR, DR, CR, AD; Usea and Trop in play, 16 life
Him: only relevant information is that he had a Flusterstorm available, and no permanents other than lands, 16 life.

Is there a solution here? I had no targets for the Abrupt Decay for the entire preceding game, as he discarded my artifact mana and played no decayable permanents. I believe the game ended with me trying to Abrupt Decay Marit Lage, which didn't turn out the way I expected it would (duh) and taking twenty the next turn.
The third game, I was on the play, and my seven card opener was:

DRx2, IT, LED, ToA, GPx2

Do you keep this hand, knowing he's on Hex Depths and we have not seen Force in two games?

I ended up mulling to six, playing discard to see he has the quick combo on turn three, end up playing some rituals into Dark Petition to get the chain of vapor to buy me a turn, draw a second chain of vapor, but then get one duressed and the second countered by crop rotation into sejiri steppe. I boarded similarly to Round Five game two, and got rid of the Abrupt Decay and something else for two more chain of vapors after the second game misplay.
I had looked at the top two before mulling, and they were Scalding tarn and Ad Nauseam. I feel like if I had kept, they would've been Ponder and Preordain, but part of me wishes I had just gone for it. I also found out he would've split our combined prize pool if I had asked, but I wasn't sure what he was on and he knew I was on Storm, so I just wasn't bold enough. I picked up my $30 credit and bought some embarrassingly bad EDH cards and left pretty pleased, despite some play mistakes (learning opportunities!).

In addition to the report, I have a few general questions:

1. I have been reading a lot on here about people playing a more Grinding Station approach, with extra Past in Flames and Tendrils, eschewing the Ad Nauseam for more resilience to countermagic. I am intrigued by this approach, but I find that I really like Ad Nauseam, which seems to be an unfashionable opinion lately (which makes me question if I'm playing the deck correctly). Have I just not played enough games to be burned by AN, or should I maybe be played TES/a hybrid? I think TES is sweet, but fear that it is less resilient/really requires you to make ballsy choices (like the goblins plan always seems shaky to me) but a friend of mine is all about it. Thoughts?
2. I think my mulliganing decisions and boarding are a big factor in my success with the deck (that is, I am not as successful as I would like because my mulliganing decisions and boarding are not strong). Does anyone have any tips or articles they like about mulliganing and boarding with storm lists? I have read Carsten's Stormboarding, and try to go by that, but still feel a bit in the dark sometimes (and probably need to study other potential lists I could play against to have a better idea of what I need to do). Also, a specific example:

Do you keep, on the draw or play, against elves:

LEDx2, LP, Fetch, Fetch, Sensei's Divining Top, AdN?

What are the factors that make you want to ship a hand immediately? To keep one?

3. Related to boarding, I think my list could use a bit of work. What fifteen have you been favoring recently? What would you bring to SCG Philly to fight the hate later this month? I am open to suggestions related to my older, stock list, or any of the variations you favor, especially if you explain why (grinding station/Hybrid/etc)

Thanks for reading, and I appreciate the tips and help in advance!

[ScottW]

@taconaut

I play a list with 2 Past in Flame / 1 Ad Nauseam / 1 Tendrils. It's seems like 2 Past in Flame is the consensus build with or without Ad Nauseam but I may be wrong. I don't have any strong advice (just opinions) as I'm not a veteran of the deck but Ad Nauseam is great. I had an opponent on POX play a Chains of Mephistopheles and I won through it via Ad Nauseam - since you just reveal cards not draw. I also play 1 Empty in my side board to win through Leyline or graveyard hate without needing to CoV or Decay before taking the game (I only play 4 tutors - no Grim Tutors or Dark Petition).

I'd recommend watching videos posted here on this thread and reading through the past 30 pages as well. As you'll see, there are many players who post here that have put a lot of time and thought into playing this deck.