[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Sloshthedark]

Hello all. First time poster here. I apologize if this has been discussed already, I did not read all 105 pages of the thread

I wanted to ask about Carpet of Flowers. I simply don't understand why it is regularly cited as a go to sideboard card vs RUG delver.
1) It forces you to fetch a nonbasic, meaning you are playing into wasteland.
2) They can often Daze their lands back to hand, and then not even replay them depending on the situation.

I was in a tourney last week, on the draw. Mull to 6, kept a 1 lander.
Him: Delver, pass.
Me: Fetch, Trop, Carpet, pass.
Him: Wasteland, kill trop, Ponder, pass.
Me: No lands, generate 1 mana from carpet, cast ponder, he dazes (Carpet now generates no mana).
Him: Sits back on delver and me with no lands.

Am I just looking at this from too narrow a perspective?
Can someone explain some game situations in which the card is worth the sideboard slot?
Do you also board it in place of lotus petal against blue control decks in which the game typically can go longer?


Can someone also explain Defense Grid over Xantid Swarm? Is this just a personal preference/metagame call?

Swarm Pros:
Grid is not killed by common removal (which generally, but not always, is boarded out against you)
Swarm comes down a turn earlier (very important vs reanimator and S&T)
Swarm cannot be spell pierced

Grid Pros:
Affects all instant speed spells, not just countermagic
Does not die to swords/bolts
Does not require fetching of a forest land

Thanks all.

in last 100 pages you can find both advocates and opposers... I fully agree to you points for Carpet is vastly overrated and underperforming, Defense Grid very narrow and even worse, for me... but some are playing it and winning as it keeps appearing in top8 decklists if those cardchoices were the reason none will find out... there is no general answer, depends how you play, whom you face and what you like... I'd say using your brain since post #1 is your best prospect to do well

[CabalTherapy]

Hello all. First time poster here. I apologize if this has been discussed already, I did not read all 105 pages of the thread

I wanted to ask about Carpet of Flowers. I simply don't understand why it is regularly cited as a go to sideboard card vs RUG delver.
1) It forces you to fetch a nonbasic, meaning you are playing into wasteland.
2) They can often Daze their lands back to hand, and then not even replay them depending on the situation.

1st one is right. Thus not everyone runs Carpet, although it lets you play around Spell Pierce/Daze during midgame and therefore counters their taxing counter. The second situation is one I didn't experince yet. (Only played Carpet once and it was mediocre.)

I was in a tourney last week, on the draw. Mull to 6, kept a 1 lander.
Him: Delver, pass.
Me: Fetch, Trop, Carpet, pass.
Him: Wasteland, kill trop, Ponder, pass.
Me: No lands, generate 1 mana from carpet, cast ponder, he dazes (Carpet now generates no mana).
Him: Sits back on delver and me with no lands.

Am I just looking at this from too narrow a perspective?
Can someone explain some game situations in which the card is worth the sideboard slot?
Do you also board it in place of lotus petal against blue control decks in which the game typically can go longer?

That is the problem with Carpet. Fetching Tropical against Rug is a mistake. You have to go for the two basics and then deploy duals. Cantripping or discarding is more important than landing Carpet. It is also advisable to keep more than 1 land against tempo.

Can someone also explain Defense Grid over Xantid Swarm? Is this just a personal preference/metagame call?

Swarm Pros:
Grid is not killed by common removal (which generally, but not always, is boarded out against you)
Swarm comes down a turn earlier (very important vs reanimator and S&T)
Swarm cannot be spell pierced

Grid Pros:
Affects all instant speed spells, not just countermagic
Does not die to swords/bolts
Does not require fetching of a forest land

Swarm is a beast against ShowandTell-based combodecks because it counters Griselbrand and a wide range of shit such as Flusterstorm/Swan Song. I don't like Defense Grid since I don't think that its ability to tax spells is a total lock such as City of Solitude's. Swarm's green mana is therefore not relevant + one does not board Swarm against a deck with spot removal (usually).

Thanks all.

[Megadeus]

I generally only board swarm in against the force of Will combo decks. I mean there's arguments to be made for it against miracles, but I can't see a world in which I'm bringing it in against a delver deck

[Arguru]

I fully agree with all other,carpet is not needed vs tempo decks,just fetch for basic lands and play well!

Concerning swarm vs grid:
Imho you want this type of card only against show and tell/reanimator,so swarm is surely better than grid...
Against tempo/control decks they are both bad cards,so i really prefer swarm!

@Togores:i'm really interested of your decklist,could you post it?

[phazonmutant]

I fully agree with all other,carpet is not needed vs tempo decks,just fetch for basic lands and play well!

Concerning swarm vs grid:
Imho you want this type of card only against show and tell/reanimator,so swarm is surely better than grid...
Against tempo/control decks they are both bad cards,so i really prefer swarm!

@Togores:i'm really interested of your decklist,could you post it?

Maybe I'm the only one here with this position, but I think Swarm is still good against the tempo decks too. If they don't have removal, it's pretty close to just winning on its own. If they do draw removal and you know about it, you can try to set up to use Swarm to flashback Therapy before they ever have priority to kill it, which conveniently adds 2 storm instead of 1. And if not, I'm usually not too upset if they have to spend a mana to Bolt it - that's 3 more life to work with!

Totally agree with everyone commenting that Carpet of Flowers is a bad card. You mostly see it in the US, where people seem to still base decklists off of Adam Prosak. He loved all sorts of strange deckbuilding choices in his ANT decks.

[KevinH]

Timo Schuemann's list in BoM also ran Carpets though, and that guy seems to know what he's doing.

[Togores]

So after another top 4 at our monthly legacy league here comes the littl report.
58 players 6 rounds then top 8.

Here top 8 lists and breakdown.

My usual ant deck with changes in side adaptinng to expected metagame.

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Infernal tutor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian probe
1 Preordain
2 senseis divinf top

3 Cabal therapy
4 Duress

4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Lotus petal

4 Polluted delta
4 Misty rainforest
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic island
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD:

3 Abrupt decay
3 Xantid swarm
2 HURKILS RECALL
2 Krosan grip
2 Massacre
1 Tendrills of agony
2 Chain of vapor

R1 lands 2-0
He beat me last month with his 7 sb speheres this time im playing ant and runing 4 only blue bouncers. And not only decay wich need a green dual.
G1 is a goldfish
G2 I discard something and he looses to pif

-2 therapy
-2 sensei
+2 hurkil
+2 chain of vapor

R2 URw control 2-0
He won last month leagu. Lots of counters, pyromancers, and also CRIPTIC COMAND!
G1 i discard his counter and run into the combo not knowing one card in his hand.
G2 he counters my xantid and then i keep ripping his hand appart. I end wining with ant nauseam at 8 lifes eot. Resolves. And then infernal for game with pif in hand so if he dosnt counter one he looses to the other.

R3 mud 1-2
G1 He plays a chalice on 0 and taps ancient tomb. Im one storm short of natural tendrills him. He plays a kuldotha. I draw a land. He sunderings all my lands away and I loose.
G2 I discard his trinisphere. Nauseam and hit badly on 1 life. But i have a petal a black mana and hurkil. Hurkil his field. And discard some hate. Next turn I win.
G3 he keeps a turn 2 trinishpere but no more bussines. I cant discard it but have lands. I preordain under trini and find a decay. He draws a second trini and I loose. Never draw a chain or a hurkil.

Sb this is probably wrong
-3 therapy
-2 sensei
+2 chain
+2 hurkil
+1 decay


R4 death and taxes. 2-1
He keeps a hand of shit mom and lands. T1 mom. I have t2 with 2 leds he draws a revoker and its ok. I have t3 because i had 2 lands and could not get helbent. Next turn he rips a thalia and I loose.
G2 I ad nauseam under thalia masacre him pasa turn and win
G3 I pif, bounce thalia with a chain and win.

Sb
-4 duress
-2 sensei
-1 preordain
+3 decay
+2 chain
+2 masacre


G2 was and interesing situation I WANT TO DISCUSS AND GET OTHERS THOUGHTS.
My hand:
2 ponder
1 petal
1 delta
1 underground
1 ritual
1 infernal
He plays mom
I draw gitaxian and play it. Seeingg thalia in his hand as only good card, but he is able to cast it next turn. i draw led.
Now! I can:
Cast all mana and infernal and nauseam with 0 mana in pool and next turn having only one land getting rid of thalia or not and may be win. Im prety sure that nauseam will make no good friends of me bacause i have already used one petal, one ritual and one led also my deck now has much higher mana costs in it.
I decide against go for t1 nauseam and make this plan here:
Fetch and ponder. If I find any kind of ritual i can go pif and win.
I ponder see misty, petal, ponder.
I keep thinking and i come to the conclusion that if I keep petal and play second ponder and in the shuffle + 3rd card find any card I can cast like a ritual, gitaxian, led or petal. I natural tendrills him. Didnt get lucky and pass. End up wining but...
What you guys think of my way of moving?
T1 nauseam high rist even with now 2 massacre and 3 decay in the deck?
Ponder and shuffle trying to hit a ritual and win?
Still play like I did?
I wanna all the thought you have about it.


R5 shardless bug 2-0
G1 he has a fow but nothing else. I need a few turns to find a discard but he drew another fow. I only have a mana he forces my first ritual but my hand was full of petal and rituals.
G3 he starts with dearhrite but has no lands. I discard his fow and win

Sb nothing (chain of vapor can be an option)

R6 draw vs duke with golddiger.

I enter 5th on top 8

Merfolks 2-1
G1 He starts beatdowning me with 2 cursecatchers and a lord. Has chalice on 0 and fow. I dont find a discard for his fow and loose.
G2 I xantid him he dosnt have fow and then decay his chalice. A bit later I win.
G3 he keeps a hand of 2 mishra 1 mutavault 2 islands 2 fows. Not good keep. He starts atacking me and I therapy his fows and win.

-2 sensei
-3 therapy
-1 preordain
+3 decay
+3 xantid

Im necer sure of my sb vs merfolk with chalice u.u
Someone helps?

Top 4 duke with golddiger
He ends wining the event.
G1 i draw all my lands in the deck even wasnt able to fetch because no more lands in hand. Draw no discard and have only mana. End up playing all lands due to handsice.
G2 I duress he vendilioms me in response I have the bussines on top and sensei on play. So he cant discard it and I discard his fluster and win.
G3 i think i make one mistake after having sensei and tendrills on top i fetch instead of waiting because my hand can get rid of his counterspell and fow. He has 1 card i dont know and obv is another counterspell and i loose. I make duress he counters. I make infernal crack led. He fows i flash back pif and he counters. Then I loose. I think i should have keep the tendrills there but i was at 14 and a vendilion already in play and i had only 4 cards. Needed some good help to win that.
-1 preordain
-1 island
-2 petal
-2 cabal
+3 xantid
+2 chain of vapor (he plays leyline side)
+1 tendrills

So another top 4 with storm expecting the mkm series in rome to go with my team and just win that.


Thanks for reading.

[Togores]

Carpet is a good card. I have won a fair amount of ganes just because of carpet. Or at least it hard hardcountered.

Usualy t1 carpet is the shitt. U wanna to go to a mid game with you with your basics and your opponent with 3 lands. Then land carpet. He muss or force it or make pierce + daze at least. And thats just 2x1 when I have played it, was a good card. Its at his best if you are gonna face a lot of patriot and rug delver. I side vs more decks but lately this 2 decks are not really played on hight numbers on my place so I took them out for hurkils because of the hight amount of mud, speheres, trinispheres. Chalice, revokes.
There are quite a few mono blacks, mud, cloudpost, loams, lands... Who side a ton of artifact hate.

[GoblinZ]

@Togores

Feel good to read your report! As for that situation against DNT(I assume you are on the play?), I would like to go for it, even though the possibility of turn one kill is not that high. Drawing bunch of cards while keeping a safe life total is very likely to help u find the answer to that single thalia and set a kill in the following turn if you did not win on the spot.

Also agree on everything you said about the carpet. It is very good against thresh and nobody forces u to play it on turn one. Trading with a daze and losing to wasteland is just bad play. And the reason I don't play carpet now is the same as what you said.

[Howishotgun]

I would have gone for the turn 1 Ad nauseam in the game 2 vs Dnt.

Like many others have said before, you don't always have to win the turn you resolve Ad nauseam. Worse case scenario you become greedy trying to dig for the turn 1 win through that and die. Best case you do win through it that turn. Then the most likely you draw some sort of hate for the thalia since you said there was nothing else you cared about in his hand. Even if you did find nothing and had to stop ad nauseam he had only mom out and prob found a bunch of needed cards to go off the following turn. Very unlikely that you find nothing from ad nauseam and have to stop.

[Arguru]

@phazonmutant:where i play,tempo players always leave in at least 3 removal spell(bolt/golgari charm/abrupt decay),and i really don't want to trade a card for a removal or in the best scenario for 3 life...but maybe i'm only unlucky...

@togores:I agree with Howishotgun!your plan was a "high risk-high reward" line of play;I don't say it was a bad choice...sometimes it works,others it sucks...
Against merfolk you can side out a land instead of a cabal therapy imho...they probably don't play wasteland,and the only tax counter they play is daze,so i think the 15th is not
necessary...

[GoblinZ]

@togores:I agree with Howishotgun!your plan was a "high risk-high reward" line of play;I don't say it was a bad choice...sometimes it works,others it sucks...
Against merfolk you can side out a land instead of a cabal therapy imho...they probably don't play wasteland,and the only tax counter they play is daze,so i think the 15th is not
necessary...

I think merfolk always plays wasteland.

[Arguru]

I think merfolk always plays wasteland.

I think latest lists plays something like:4 mutavault 4 cavern of souls 12 island...

[Howishotgun]

I think merfolk always plays wasteland.

If you see cavern of souls or chalice of the void the deck does not run wasteland (to my knowledge)

[wonderPreaux]

If you see cavern of souls or chalice of the void the deck does not run wasteland (to my knowledge)

To extend on this, I've also noticed that Daze and CotV tend to compete for slots, so if you see Chalice, you typically don't see Daze.

[GoblinZ]

Oh, my fault...I have not paid enough attention to that deck for quite a long time although I beat one with chalice at the quarter finals of my last GPT...

[Togores]

Lately merfolks dont run daze or wasteland. Usualy all list I have faced from all playersare like
4 mutavault
4 mishras favtoru
4 cavern
4 chalice
0 wasteland
0 daze


@goblinZ i was on the draw and he played t1 mom.

[Dark Ritual]

Lately merfolks dont run daze or wasteland. Usualy all list I have faced from all playersare like
4 mutavault
4 mishras favtoru
4 cavern
4 chalice
0 wasteland
0 daze


@goblinZ i was on the draw and he played t1 mom.

I rarely see mishra's factory out of them at all. They typically have 4 cavern, 4 mutavault, X islands. They couldn't reasonably afford more colorless lands since the number of UU spells in there is quite high and they don't draw vial every game. I never see wasteland out of them anymore. Daze I sometimes see I have yet to play against merfolk with chalice of the void in the 75 but have heard about it a lot in regards to merfolk.

I never really want carpet in my sideboard in ANT. Playing around wasteland and soft counters with cantrips and uncracked fetchlands is easy typically. I still like playing against tempo more than miracles where they don't have countertop but instead soft countermagic that gets worse the longer the game goes as even with turn 1 delver turn 2 flip that's killing you on turn 6+ usually/enough time to setup to win through their hard/soft counters if they even draw that many and enough lands to cast them all. It's simply great when they use a ponder/delver/goyf/anything mainphase and then you go off because they have just one blue mana available and multiple pieces of countermagic in hand that cost U due to how light they run landwise. The games that they don't open on turn 1 delver into immediate flip are the greatest or the ones where they have goyf as their only threat/slow and mana intensive card that I have killed people with due to their tapping out for it many a time as it's a lose lose for the opponent either they don't deploy a threat to clock you or they tap out and you can just kill them on your turn.

Against any deck if I can resolve turn 1 ad nauseam I do so. Yeah you have massacres and decays to flip. Only the decays are dead with mom in play but the massacre's are insane against his mom + thalia assuming he used plains to cast the mom and not karakas/eiganjo castle/horizon canopy. Not to mention you can still just win the game by flipping over petal, DR, LED, tutor as your storm count is lethal at that point or even if you don't you have a super stacked 7 post ad nauseam turn in all likelihood that will contain massacre or some really good setup spells to net you a win as your opponent is unlikely to clock you for much as mom hits for 1.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Does anyone have testing results for game one against RUG and UWR Delver? I'm looking for matchup percentages with maindeck Ad Nausem lists, minimum 100 games played, evenly split between playing and drawing first.

[kkkant]

Why is everybody playing Hurkyl's Recall instead of Meltdown? It might be (a little) better vs lands, but it really helps vs Stompy and other artifact intensive decks (not to mention affinity which isnt really a threat) where we can encounter some Blood Moons.

Also, this list drew my attention - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16098&iddeck=120178

Blood moon on the sb? I guess it can be good vs lands, bug and deathblade where they wont be expecting it, but is it really worth it?