[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[wonderPreaux]

Why is everybody playing Hurkyl's Recall instead of Meltdown? It might be (a little) better vs lands, but it really helps vs Stompy and other artifact intensive decks (not to mention affinity which isnt really a threat) where we can encounter some Blood Moons.

Also, this list drew my attention - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16098&iddeck=120178

Blood moon on the sb? I guess it can be good vs lands, bug and deathblade where they wont be expecting it, but is it really worth it?

In addition to the different matchup proficiency, Recall builds storm with your LEDs and Petals if you target yourself, which is extra utility.

[Howishotgun]

I prefer Hurkyl's Recall over meltdown for a couple of reasons. Hurkyl's is instant speed and as wonder said you can also use it on yourself if you need more storm in some situations. Meltdown under a trinisphere will have to cost at least 4 mana. Plus fetching nonbasic for the red vs blue can matter against some decks.

[Megadeus]

So I'm gearing up for the SCG Invi at the end of the month. Here's the list I am thinking of:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Top

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

SB:
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

I'm on the fence of whether I want to play AN main or swap it for the second PiF. I think the decks to beat will be Show and Tell, Miracles, and X Delver Variant.

[Megadeus]

Sorry for a double post, but I was watching an old game of ANT vs. RUG and was watching BBD lucksack his way into a win even though I THINK he could've won without the luck. Here's the scenario:
You have a hand of:
Infernal Tutor
Infernal Tutor
Infernal Tutor
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Past in Flames

this is during a brainstorm, so you need to put 2 cards back. Storm is currently at 5. You have basic Island tapped on the field a black floating, and you know your opponent has 2 Stifles in hand with 2 open blue mana.
Your Graveyard is Ponder, Preordain, Volcanic, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, 2x Duress.

His line of play was to put back Pif and an IT, play Petal, and infernal for a ritual which seems wrong since now he must pass the turn back with his opponent having 6 power on board and him at 14, no black source, and his fetch lands essentially drawing dead.

My proposed line:
Put back Lotus Petal and Infernal Tutor. Cast Dark Ritual (BBB), cast LED, Cast Infernal (B), crack LED for R (BRRR), fetch up cabal ritual. Cast Cabal Ritual (BBBBBRR), flash back PiF (BB), Cast Cabal Ritual (BBBBB), 2x Dark Rituals (BBBBBBBBB), Flash back both duress (BBBBBBB), cast infernal (BBBBB), Cast Tendrils? I believe I am doing my math right here. Does anyone know of any other videos that I should watch that have multiple lines of play and that could be done differently?

Link to video in Question. Skip to the ~42 Min mark for this scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC33Wp_qzcY

Edit: I also disagreed heavily with his decision to keep in Ad Nauseam at least in Game 2 on the draw against Delver

[Lemnear]

So I'm gearing up for the SCG Invi at the end of the month. Here's the list I am thinking of:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
1 Sensei's Top

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island

SB:
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Massacre
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

I'm on the fence of whether I want to play AN main or swap it for the second PiF. I think the decks to beat will be Show and Tell, Miracles, and X Delver Variant.

I hate Thoughtseize in Ad Nauseam decks and the discard split doesn't make sense if you are running w/o MB EtW, with the later imo being an Auto-include once you cut the Ad Nauseam for Belcher-like plays. 2 PIF/ 1 ToA/ 1 EtW all over, if you ask me with 3 Massacres in the board against the bunch of D&Ts & Blades expecting.

I'm not even sure you need AN in the 75 given that value PIFs are so good to gain advantage against control and opposing combo given that you get hands on the initial discard, which is a reason I currently (with the rise of OmniTell & Storm) consider to run a 8th discard rather than the durdling with Top or Preordain.

[CabalTherapy]

I'm not even sure you need AN in the 75 given that value PIFs are so good to gain advantage against control and opposing combo given that you get hands on the initial discard, which is a reason I currently (with the rise of OmniTell & Storm) consider to run a 8th discard rather than the durdling with Top or Preordain.

That is a wrong assumption. "Value PIFs [...] against control and opposing combo". Well, I don't see your reasoning here because Ad Nauseam is one of the best cards against combo decks such as Elves, Storm, SneakShow and so on... It can be cast off two Dark Rituals or one + 2 untapped lands but I guess you know that since you write about TES extensively. I would reverse your statement and say that with the rise of OmniTell and Storm Ad Nauseam becomes obligatory in order to have a winoption ignoring the graveyard; it doesn't demand many cards to go off. You should know that it is a mistake to board out cantrips against decks with discard such as ANT. Therefore, your suggestion to run the 8th discard spell is not entirely deliberated.


@ Megadeus: Yes, BBD made a mistake there.

[Sloshthedark]

Maybe I'm the only one here with this position, but I think Swarm is still good against the tempo decks too. If they don't have removal, it's pretty close to just winning on its own. If they do draw removal and you know about it, you can try to set up to use Swarm to flashback Therapy before they ever have priority to kill it, which conveniently adds 2 storm instead of 1. And if not, I'm usually not too upset if they have to spend a mana to Bolt it - that's 3 more life to work with!

Totally agree with everyone commenting that Carpet of Flowers is a bad card. You mostly see it in the US, where people seem to still base decklists off of Adam Prosak. He loved all sorts of strange deckbuilding choices in his ANT decks.

I'm on the same board, XS vs Thresh is very fine choice at 2G lands

Timo Schuemann's list in BoM also ran Carpets though, and that guy seems to know what he's doing.

Do not mean to be offensive but how many times have you seen him play in Chicago to say so? I was not very impressed by his play both Ghent and BoM

Carpet is a good card. I have won a fair amount of ganes just because of carpet. Or at least it hard hardcountered.

Usualy t1 carpet is the shitt. U wanna to go to a mid game with you with your basics and your opponent with 3 lands. Then land carpet. He muss or force it or make pierce + daze at least. And thats just 2x1 when I have played it, was a good card. Its at his best if you are gonna face a lot of patriot and rug delver. I side vs more decks but lately this 2 decks are not really played on hight numbers on my place so I took them out for hurkils because of the hight amount of mud, speheres, trinispheres. Chalice, revokes.
There are quite a few mono blacks, mud, cloudpost, loams, lands... Who side a ton of artifact hate.

thats the second angle of view, I for example find Carpet with both UWR and Thresh unnecessary for what I'm traying to do, but for some that works

Recall is fine choice for MUD, no thoughts of Rebuild/Recall split?

edit: R4G2 I like your line, I'd consider Ad nausam if Thalia would be played off 2 nonplains lands, otherwise always Ponder because I do see odds winning off Ponder quite high maybe comparale to direct Ad Nauseam win (feeling, maybe too bold statement) on the other hand what nonwining combination of cards has Ad nauseam to reveal that gives you better odds against Thalia next turn?

Why is everybody playing Hurkyl's Recall instead of Meltdown? It might be (a little) better vs lands, but it really helps vs Stompy and other artifact intensive decks (not to mention affinity which isnt really a threat) where we can encounter some Blood Moons.

Also, this list drew my attention - http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16098&iddeck=120178

Blood moon on the sb? I guess it can be good vs lands, bug and deathblade where they wont be expecting it, but is it really worth it?

Meltdown is a sorcery, in fact Rebuild might be even more interesting as you can play out your artifacts early on and do not lose on storm, which might be actually relevant as they go low on life with Tomb plenty of times (maybe not now the Cloudpost version)

Blood Moon - tried that, TES is better fit for that but still not worth it

So I'm gearing up for the SCG Invi at the end of the month. Here's the list I am thinking of:

I'm on the fence of whether I want to play AN main or swap it for the second PiF. I think the decks to beat will be Show and Tell, Miracles, and X Delver Variant.

I agree with Lemnear, If you plan on to have 2nd PiF and EtW in the board switch it to MD... depends what you want to play, but if you want 2PiF version it's gotta be MD

edit: yes, I'd take Nevilshutes line, I believe the IT+DR+LED+PIF card combination should be obvious to any experienced player as it's the esence of postPiF Ant, this is why is 2 PiF a consideration and this is what most T1 Pif kills and Fow-proof kills consist of... yes pretty bad if missed by BBD

[Lemnear]

That is a wrong assumption. "Value PIFs [...] against control and opposing combo". Well, I don't see your reasoning here because Ad Nauseam is one of the best cards against combo decks such as Elves, Storm, SneakShow and so on... It can be cast off two Dark Rituals or one + 2 untapped lands but I guess you know that since you write about TES extensively. I would reverse your statement and say that with the rise of OmniTell and Storm Ad Nauseam becomes obligatory in order to have a winoption ignoring the graveyard; it doesn't demand many cards to go off. You should know that it is a mistake to board out cantrips against decks with discard such as ANT. Therefore, your suggestion to run the 8th discard spell is not entirely deliberated.


@ Megadeus: Yes, BBD made a mistake there.

I consider it more successful to grind out S&T variants with discard than trying to race them if you are playing a deck with a critical turn more in the range of 3 rather than 1 or 2. As long as EtW and natural chains exist, you can work around graveyard hate anyways and don't need to rely on Ad Nauseam, whichs mayor flaw in ANT (at least for me) isn't necessarily the higher average cmc of the decks components, but the limited combination of cards to flip to gain access to ToA (its basically either flipping ToA itself or IT + LED unless you have the capability to cantrip post-AN into missing pieces). don't you agree that the thing about the discard in combo mirrors, aka Disrupting your opponent VS. advancing your own gameplan, is highly depending on your hand and deck speed?

[CabalTherapy]

I consider it more successful to grind out S&T variants with discard than trying to race them if you are playing a deck with a critical turn more in the range of 3 rather than 1 or 2. As long as EtW and natural chains exist, you can work around graveyard hate anyways and don't need to rely on Ad Nauseam, whichs mayor flaw in ANT (at least for me) isn't necessarily the higher average cmc of the decks components, but the limited combination of cards to flip to gain access to ToA (its basically either flipping ToA itself or IT + LED unless you have the capability to cantrip post-AN into missing pieces). don't you agree that the thing about the discard in combo mirrors, aka Disrupting your opponent VS. advancing your own gameplan, is highly depending on your hand and deck speed?

I wouldn't call it grinding out because most Show and Tell decks play a limited amount of counterspells preboard, whereas Swarm blanks their Swan Songs/ Flusterstorm. In addition, I expect EtW to be a bad card against Show and Tell and Storm because of obvious reasons. I know how Ad N works but on the other hand I would rather go with Ad N and its yoloness than playing goblins.
I agree with your last statement but I dont' see its relevance to the topic. Basically you argue against a very good card in certain MUs in favour of a discard spell. You see, there has to be a balance between cantrips and discard. Carsten even went from 7 to 6 which I don't like but we shouldn't transform a combo deck into a control pile.

[nevilshute]

Sorry for a double post, but I was watching an old game of ANT vs. RUG and was watching BBD lucksack his way into a win even though I THINK he could've won without the luck. Here's the scenario:
You have a hand of:
Infernal Tutor
Infernal Tutor
Infernal Tutor
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Past in Flames

this is during a brainstorm, so you need to put 2 cards back. Storm is currently at 5. You have basic Island tapped on the field a black floating, and you know your opponent has 2 Stifles in hand with 2 open blue mana.
Your Graveyard is Ponder, Preordain, Volcanic, Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, 2x Duress.

His line of play was to put back Pif and an IT, play Petal, and infernal for a ritual which seems wrong since now he must pass the turn back with his opponent having 6 power on board and him at 14, no black source, and his fetch lands essentially drawing dead.

My proposed line:
Put back Lotus Petal and Infernal Tutor. Cast Dark Ritual (BBB), cast LED, Cast Infernal (B), crack LED for R (BRRR), fetch up cabal ritual. Cast Cabal Ritual (BBBBBRR), flash back PiF (BB), Cast Cabal Ritual (BBBBB), 2x Dark Rituals (BBBBBBBBB), Flash back both duress (BBBBBBB), cast infernal (BBBBB), Cast Tendrils? I believe I am doing my math right here. Does anyone know of any other videos that I should watch that have multiple lines of play and that could be done differently?

Link to video in Question. Skip to the ~42 Min mark for this scenario.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LC33Wp_qzcY

Edit: I also disagreed heavily with his decision to keep in Ad Nauseam at least in Game 2 on the draw against Delver

I think several lines work here, as long as you realize NOT to put back Past in Flames. Tutoring up Cabal Ritual is the other key. Another line would be:

Put back 2x Infernal Tutor.

Cast Dark Ritual (BBB - Storm 6), cast LED (storm 7), petal (storm 8 - Pikula is at 17 so will stop counting storm from here on). Cast Tutor (B), crack LED for BBB discarding Past in Flames BBBB. Tutor up Cabal Ritual, cast Cabal Ritual BBBBBBB. Crack petal for R, RBBBBBBB. Flashback Past in Flames BBB. Flash back Dark rit, BBBBB, Dark rit, BBBBBBB, Cab rit BBBBBBBBBB, 2x duress BBBBBBBB, Tutor BBBBBB, Tendrils. We have BB floating at the end here.

[Lemnear]

I wouldn't call it grinding out because most Show and Tell decks play a limited amount of counterspells preboard, whereas Swarm blanks their Swan Songs/ Flusterstorm. In addition, I expect EtW to be a bad card against Show and Tell and Storm because of obvious reasons. I know how Ad N works but on the other hand I would rather go with Ad N and its yoloness than playing goblins.
I agree with your last statement but I dont' see its relevance to the topic. Basically you argue against a very good card in certain MUs in favour of a discard spell. You see, there has to be a balance between cantrips and discard. Carsten even went from 7 to 6 which I don't like but we shouldn't transform a combo deck into a control pile.

Should have called it "slowing them down" in that case as picking appart defense with discard and xantid was never the issue unless Griselbrand/Omniscience hit the battlefield. Yeah, EtW is bad here and the space it occupies only serves for SB cards in postboard games or to flashback Therapies, but that's a tradeoff to consider given it's potential for YOLO game 1 wins and being more reliable (matter of taste) than Ad Nauseam in certain matchups against potential yard-hate.

I asume the 6 MB discard spells are supplemented by two Flusterstorms in the board to provide 8 disruptions spells against opposing combo decks in the end as well? I just had the desire to up the count of disruption to snatch Counterbalances or S&Ts game 1 asap.

I think several lines work here, as long as you realize NOT to put back Past in Flames. Tutoring up Cabal Ritual is the other key. Another line would be:

Put back 2x Infernal Tutor.

Cast Dark Ritual (BBB - Storm 6), cast LED (storm 7), petal (storm 8 - Pikula is at 17 so will stop counting storm from here on). Cast Tutor (B), crack LED for BBB discarding Past in Flames BBBB. Tutor up Cabal Ritual, cast Cabal Ritual BBBBBBB. Crack petal for R, RBBBBBBB. Flashback Past in Flames BBB. Flash back Dark rit, BBBBB, Dark rit, BBBBBBB, Cab rit BBBBBBBBBB, 2x duress BBBBBBBB, Tutor BBBBBB, Tendrils. We have BB floating at the end here.

He just did not see the playline of "Tutoring for acceleration with hellbent Infernal", but mentally stuck into "hellbent Tutor for PIF training-wheels". Simple.

[Megadeus]

I definitely want AN somewhere in the 75, not unsure of where. I expect to play against Jund/Junk (Discard) somewhere along the line. And like has been said, it's a fine way to win against combo quickly.

[kkkant]

This sunday will be a big tournament here in Argentina (last one i finished 2nd with Storm), and I'm planning to attend with this list, although im a bit unsure about some SB choicess:

MD:
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
(1 Badlands/ 2nd Basic Island / Extra Fetchland?)
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Led

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens

SB:
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Chrome Mox
1 Burning Wish

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor (1 CoV and 1 Echoing Truth?)
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 (Meltdown / Rebuild)
2 (Dark Confidant / Surgical Extraction)


My main doubt regarding the SB is between Confi and Surgical. My biggest concern is combo, since this version is a little slower and better positioned vs miracles than the regular one, im thinking Surgical may be the way to go (dredge is really trending here).
Deluge could be a pyroclasm, but i like it isnt color demanding at it can hit a teeg no questions asked.
About the discard split, since im a little slower but not so life dependant, i can afford to MD the 2 seizes, specially since hatebears are a bigger problem G1.

Any opinions will be well recieved! :)

[Jonathan Alexander]

How do you feel about running only two Decays? I find that very bold. Also, the 15th land slot should probably be the second Swamp. It's just too good against Delver strategies, where you often end up having some of your rituals countered when going off. Another basic is also good with two Divining Tops. I would still run the 16th land in the board though, probably another green source.
Chrome Mox isn't really needed without the second Ad Nauseam and I think your going overboard with your Wish-targets, not focusing enough on the most common matchups. If you're worried about Teeg, try running Dread of Night. It's also insane against Death and Taxes.
Against Dredge, I think the best forms of hate are Leyline (probably with Helm of Obedience somewhere) and Grafdigger's Cage. Both have their merits.

One last thing, what's your goal with the discard split?


On a general note, you do want Ad Nauseam in your deck against everything not running Lightning Bolt that isn't Jund. The only exception is Miracles, where you only want it preboard.

[kkkant]

How do you feel about running only two Decays? I find that very bold. Also, the 15th land slot should probably be the second Swamp. It's just too good against Delver strategies, where you often end up having some of your rituals countered when going off. Another basic is also good with two Divining Tops. I would still run the 16th land in the board though, probably another green source.
Chrome Mox isn't really needed without the second Ad Nauseam and I think your going overboard with your Wish-targets, not focusing enough on the most common matchups. If you're worried about Teeg, try running Dread of Night. It's also insane against Death and Taxes.
Against Dredge, I think the best forms of hate are Leyline (probably with Helm of Obedience somewhere) and Grafdigger's Cage. Both have their merits.

One last thing, what's your goal with the discard split?


On a general note, you do want Ad Nauseam in your deck against everything not running Lightning Bolt that isn't Jund. The only exception is Miracles, where you only want it preboard.

The swamp might be a good idea, although i rather have the second island, it happened to me to lose aggainst delver for havng only 1 black source.
The chrome mox might be right also, it was there when I played two nauseams, but i guess its not that great now.
The idea behind the wish is not for the wishboard, but for being able to side out some wincons (1 ToA, 1 EtW, and 1 PiF) but still being able to reach them (and make them surgical-proof). Im not very fond of dread of night, since it isnt helpfull vs deathblade and uwr, where canonists and meddling mages can be a real issue. Im pretty sold on that choice.
I thought about the Leyline (also leyline + helm) option, but it is true that on late game its almost like a dead card (not to mention it will take at least 4 sb slots), and surgical can take some profit against belcher, not to mention nauseam or show and tell variants which play intuition.

The idea with the discard split is that each one has its bright side. Duress cant be missdirectioned and doesnt make me lose life, cabal therapy can be flashbacked and seize is great vs hatebears. So it makes it much better when sideboarding, you get to keep only the optimal ones aggainst each deck.

Thank you for the elaborate reply!

[Megadeus]

Therapy is pretty good against Hatebears as well though (especially obviously with Probe). I just don't think you need TS until you have maxed out on Therapy imo.

[KevinH]

On a general note, you do want Ad Nauseam in your deck against everything not running Lightning Bolt that isn't Jund. The only exception is Miracles, where you only want it preboard.

Why is AN bad postboard vs Miracles?

[Togores]

In a 2 pif version I would play 100% badlands. You pif too much for value. And then you just dont want the only red source wasted.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Why is AN bad postboard vs Miracles?

Because you can board additional Tendrils and Abrupt Decay, which is a much stronger plan.

In a 2 pif version I would play 100% badlands. You pif too much for value. And then you just dont want the only red source wasted.

It's not like you don't have any Petal or Lion's Eye Diamonds. Having your only green source wasted against UWR is much worse, because you're going to fetch for green before your combo turn. Red you only ever need in your combo turn.

[Togores]

Because you can board additional Tendrils and Abrupt Decay, which is a much stronger plan.



It's not like you don't have any Petal or Lion's Eye Diamonds. Having your only green source wasted against UWR is much worse, because you're going to fetch for green before your combo turn. Red you only ever need in your combo turn.

You can not have 100% a petal or led every game. But you can have a fetch.
Also why would green matter vs uwr? Only matters if you play carpets. But with the above side i would not side in any cards.
+2 chains and or 2 massacre are more than enought.
Xantids and decay are not really good vs them.