[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Tom T]

So opening hands are something that's discussed a lot, and for Storm, I actually find it very useful because unlike most decks, you can go deeper than just keep vs. mulligan. They are often brought up here, but I tend to feel discouraged to discuss them because the information gets lost so quickly. Therefore I want to take a look at a couple hands you guys think are interesting to discuss and post my opinions on my blog. Obviously, I can generate hands myself, but what I find interesting probably differs from what most other people find interesting, so I'm looking for your input. Also, feel free to share your own opinion on those hands.

I would prefer hands from lists using either 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames & 2 Tendrils or 1 Empty the Warrens, 2 Past in Flames, 2 Tendrils because those are the most versatile. Also, I think it might be interesting to feature multiple hands that can generate turn one kills to look at when to go for it and when to wait.

Thanks for your help!

What would be interesting is defining what the probability is you're against a deck containing Force of Will followed by some conditional T1 hands.

I just discussed two opening hands with a friend.
assumptions: storm is on the play; 75% of the decks contain 4x FoW; there's a 40% chance the opponent has one in his opening hand; you play 4 GP, 4 LP and 15 land.

Hand1: GP, DR, DR, IT, LED, AN, ToA

->26,6% of winning T1

Hand2: GP, GP, DR, DR, IT, LED, AN

->42,7% of winning T1

What do you think?

~Tom

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't think it's a good idea to operate on numbers like that. They're basically only correct in the first round of a tournament without byes where your opponent has zero information about you and no reason to keep or mull hands based on turn zero/one interaction in the dark. Personally I make decisions like that based on the way I judge my opponent and I tend to try and squeeze information out of them pretty hard, at least when I'm playing seriously. Further, right now, the winning metagame is so much more blue heavy than the overall metagame. These numbers change a lot based on current tournament record, previous interactions between players, the metagame your opponent has experienced (in regards to what they're looking for in a hand) and regional metagames in general.
Still, the second hand you provided looks good, care to share the list you're using?

By the way, 15 land is most likely not correct, because you're not looking for land in general but a black source specifically. This means you're usually looking for one out of sixteen cards (12 lands, 4 Petals).

[Tom T]

I don't think it's a good idea to operate on numbers like that. They're basically only correct in the first round of a tournament without byes where your opponent has zero information about you and no reason to keep or mull hands based on turn zero/one interaction in the dark. Personally I make decisions like that based on the way I judge my opponent and I tend to try and squeeze information out of them pretty hard, at least when I'm playing seriously. Further, right now, the winning metagame is so much more blue heavy than the overall metagame. These numbers change a lot based on current tournament record, previous interactions between players, the metagame your opponent has experienced (in regards to what they're looking for in a hand) and regional metagames in general.
Still, the second hand you provided looks good, care to share the list you're using?

By the way, 15 land is most likely not correct, because you're not looking for land in general but a black source specifically. This means you're usually looking for one out of sixteen cards (12 lands, 4 Petals).

My list:

Non-FullHouse stock ANT (55 + 5 flex)
Lands: 4 Delta, 3 Rainforest, 1 Mire, 2 Sea, 1 Volcanic, 1 Tropical, 1 Bayou, 1 Island, 1 Swamp
Accelerants: 4 DR, 3 CR, 1 RoF, 4 LP, 4 LED
Cantrips: 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 GP, 2 Preordain, 1 SDT
Discard: 4 CT, 3 Duress
Business: 4 IT, 1 ToA, 1 PiF, 1 AN

(I'm still on the fence about playing double PiF or double ToA)

2nd hand: GP, GP, DR, DR, LED, IT, AN

Outs: (12+4)/51
T1 kill chance: 1-(35/51)*(34/50) = 53%

[ApolloGod]

I just started playing ANT again on MTGO (I took a break from legacy for about a year.) I have some thoughts about SB choices. I currently run 4x Abrupt Decay and 2x Xantid swarm, in addition to some other flex slots (Dread of Night, etc.) I've played dozens of matches in Tournament Practice, and I haven't brought in Xantid swarm in any matches (not once!)

I know that sounds odd, but I've had tremendous success with the discard package and the 4x Abrupt Decay as my form of disruption. My opponents have consisted of the usual: Miracles, D&T, OmniTell, Elves, etc. I don't know too much about paper magic, but the MTGO Meta is filled with Swords to Plowshares, Bolts, bounce, etc. Xantid would never survive to be useful. On the other hand, in every single match (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 games), I've brought in at least 3 Abrupt Decay, usually 4. The card is an all-star. In combination with the heavy discard package, I'm not having too much trouble against hate.

I noticed in a recent GP Lille tournament report that a storm player ran Pyroblast in the SB. That card is alluring, especially against a blue-heavy meta. Does anybody have any further insight into sideboard choices? The meta (online) doesn't seem to support me running Xantid currently.

[nevilshute]

I just started playing ANT again on MTGO (I took a break from legacy for about a year.) I have some thoughts about SB choices. I currently run 4x Abrupt Decay and 2x Xantid swarm, in addition to some other flex slots (Dread of Night, etc.) I've played dozens of matches in Tournament Practice, and I haven't brought in Xantid swarm in any matches (not once!)

I know that sounds odd, but I've had tremendous success with the discard package and the 4x Abrupt Decay as my form of disruption. My opponents have consisted of the usual: Miracles, D&T, OmniTell, Elves, etc. I don't know too much about paper magic, but the MTGO Meta is filled with Swords to Plowshares, Bolts, bounce, etc. Xantid would never survive to be useful. On the other hand, in every single match (with the exception of maybe 1 or 2 games), I've brought in at least 3 Abrupt Decay, usually 4. The card is an all-star. In combination with the heavy discard package, I'm not having too much trouble against hate.

I noticed in a recent GP Lille tournament report that a storm player ran Pyroblast in the SB. That card is alluring, especially against a blue-heavy meta. Does anybody have any further insight into sideboard choices? The meta (online) doesn't seem to support me running Xantid currently.

You say that you've faced Omnitell but have not once brought in XS? That seems wrong. XS is there, in my opinion, almost exclusively to be brought in against Show and Tell based combo.

XS wrecks Omni. And sure, they could CWish for a bolt but that takes time and ressources that they aren't using to kill you or protect them selves from getting killed. If I expect Show and Tell to be a deck to beat I'm always going to be packing 2-3 swarms.

[OlegtheSuper]

I know this has been discussed before and I had a little spare time (and a point to prove), so I wrote a short article on cantrip order:
https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/.../cantrip-math/

There are mistakes in math

[Jonathan Alexander]

There are mistakes in math

There is one mistake, which I am working on fixing. Basically, it's not true that Preordain digs better than Ponder, but that has no effect on the order you should cast your cantrips in. The revised article should be up in a couple hours.

[OlegtheSuper]

There is one mistake, which I am working on fixing. Basically, it's not true that Preordain digs better than Ponder, but that has no effect on the order you should cast your cantrips in. The revised article should be up in a couple hours.

Great, thank you!

[Jonathan Alexander]

Short update. The order in which cantrips should be used is still fixed for any combination of two cantrips: Preordain should be cast before Ponder, Ponder should be cast before Brainstorm. With the exception of double Brainstorm, fetchlands should be cracked before the first cantrip (because that's the only scenario where shuffling matters). Similarly, Gitaxian Probe should also be cast before Brainstorm and Ponder and it doesn't make a difference whether it's cast before or after Preordain.

The problem is that cantrip power is not fixed. There are three tiers of two-cantrip combinations:

First tier:
Ponder + Ponder & Preordain + Ponder

Second tier:
Ponder + Brainstorm/Preordain & Preordain + Preordain/Ponder

Third tier:
Brainstorm + Brainstorm

These tiers are unaffected by fetchlands, i.e. Brainstorm + Brainstorm is the worst combination with or without a fetchland. I am currently working on spreadsheets that show order within the tiers by calculating all values for 1 ≤ y ≤ 45 and 0 ≤ x ≤ 55. I have also rewritten my article to include a section for each of the combinations of two cantrips, but I have not updated it yet because I would like to include the spreadsheets when I do so.

[SFL-Brainstorm]

Has anyone been testing Dark Petition in the "Grinding Station" style of storm? It seems that this is where it fits best, and was wondering if anyone has had success testing it.

[Miscanthus]

Has anyone been testing Dark Petition in the "Grinding Station" style of storm? It seems that this is where it fits best, and was wondering if anyone has had success testing it.

I have been testing it out a bit. So far it has been quite underwhelming.
As some on this thread have predicted, the five mana to start is a LOT...and tends to leave you much more vulnerable to stuff like Daze and Spell Pierce (which we could often play around with cantrips, Grim Tutor, etc.).

I also found that I greatly missed the ability to use cantrips/Grim Tutor to find a discard spell/last piece of acceleration/key sideboard card I needed prior going off. Again as some on this thread have predicted, Dark Petition is pretty horrible in this role, which in effect makes the deck noticeably less consistent.

In short, as of this writing I don't think Dark Petition has a home in ANT.

[d0nkey]

Short update. The order in which cantrips should be used is still fixed for any combination of two cantrips: Preordain should be cast before Ponder, Ponder should be cast before Brainstorm. With the exception of double Brainstorm, fetchlands should be cracked before the first cantrip (because that's the only scenario where shuffling matters). Similarly, Gitaxian Probe should also be cast before Brainstorm and Ponder and it doesn't make a difference whether it's cast before or after Preordain.

The problem is that cantrip power is not fixed. There are three tiers of two-cantrip combinations:

First tier:
Ponder + Ponder & Preordain + Ponder

Second tier:
Ponder + Brainstorm/Preordain & Preordain + Preordain/Ponder

Third tier:
Brainstorm + Brainstorm

These tiers are unaffected by fetchlands, i.e. Brainstorm + Brainstorm is the worst combination with or without a fetchland. I am currently working on spreadsheets that show order within the tiers by calculating all values for 1 ≤ y ≤ 45 and 0 ≤ x ≤ 55. I have also rewritten my article to include a section for each of the combinations of two cantrips, but I have not updated it yet because I would like to include the spreadsheets when I do so.

I'm not sure I agree with casting Gitaxian Probe before Brainstorm as an absolute. The 'float business + LED and probe into it' line has a lot of value.

[ApolloGod]

You say that you've faced Omnitell but have not once brought in XS? That seems wrong. XS is there, in my opinion, almost exclusively to be brought in against Show and Tell based combo.

XS wrecks Omni. And sure, they could CWish for a bolt but that takes time and ressources that they aren't using to kill you or protect them selves from getting killed. If I expect Show and Tell to be a deck to beat I'm always going to be packing 2-3 swarms.

OmniTell decks online are structured like this: Some of them run bolt/sudden shock main deck. Nearly all of them run some combination of Bolt, Sudden Shock, Pyroclasm in the sideboard. The decks online running all three burn varieties do so in a 2/2/2 split. If I bring in Xantid (to combat countermagic during my combo turn,) they've brought in ample answers to Xantid. I'm just experimenting with other possible sideboard cards. Pyroblast was an interesting idea from GP Lille. I've also considered Autumn's Veil.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I'm not sure I agree with casting Gitaxian Probe before Brainstorm as an absolute. The 'float business + LED and probe into it' line has a lot of value.

The only point of the article is to showcase how to optimise raw digging power, otherwise you are right, yes. I probably should have mentioned that in my post as well.

In other news, I have fixed my article and included the spreadsheet for fetch, Preordain, Ponder vs. fetch, Ponder, Ponder. https://theweeklywars.wordpress.com/.../cantrip-math/

[Tom T]

I have been testing it out a bit. So far it has been quite underwhelming.
As some on this thread have predicted, the five mana to start is a LOT...and tends to leave you much more vulnerable to stuff like Daze and Spell Pierce (which we could often play around with cantrips, Grim Tutor, etc.).

I also found that I greatly missed the ability to use cantrips/Grim Tutor to find a discard spell/last piece of acceleration/key sideboard card I needed prior going off. Again as some on this thread have predicted, Dark Petition is pretty horrible in this role, which in effect makes the deck noticeably less consistent.

In short, as of this writing I don't think Dark Petition has a home in ANT.

My friend Jesper and I were discussing Grim Tutor vs. Dark Petition and the conclusion was;
"Grim Tutor is a tutor and Dark Petition is for comboing out."

[Tom T]

OmniTell decks online are structured like this: Some of them run bolt/sudden shock main deck. Nearly all of them run some combination of Bolt, Sudden Shock, Pyroclasm in the sideboard. The decks online running all three burn varieties do so in a 2/2/2 split. If I bring in Xantid (to combat countermagic during my combo turn,) they've brought in ample answers to Xantid. I'm just experimenting with other possible sideboard cards. Pyroblast was an interesting idea from GP Lille. I've also considered Autumn's Veil.

Try Extirpate or Slaughter Pact.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Try Extirpate or Slaughter Pact.

I think you mean Slaughter Games.

[Togores]

Today I played legacy event. With nevilshute deck -1 grim +1 preordain.
Sb:
2 slaughter games to test them. i would have liked flusterstorm much more. Its better vs elves, and dredge.
2 hurkil. Mud and chalice asholes. Im not sure on loam. Because they play also tegg and hatebers.
3 decay
2 masacre
1 ant
1 burning wish
2 xantid. Still like 3 its just an awesome card when its good.
2 chain
R1 loam
G1 he has ozze t1 drs t2 i make him thing im on omni and he activates in his turn. So i can pif loop. But without his missplay was impossible.
G2 he has t2 canonist. i decay it and he gets t4 tegg. I never find and answer and loose.
G3 he has chalice t1 tegg turn 2 and 2 wastelands...

R2 bye

R3 infect.
G1 i gitaxian and im dead in 2 turns. I know he has fow and i force him to make it to a cabal. And then I wil.
G2 i strip his hand and he has pierce. I probe, brainstorm, play xantid and sacrifice for therapy. Then I natural storm him.

R4 dredge I have 2 leds and infernal. But emtpy dosnt get there and pif also not because I have no rituals. i end up dead.
G2 i just brainstorm into a t1 pif loop.
G3 he therapys t2 getting 2 infenral. Then a ritual and them rain of filth. I die. Even to his no clock but im missing mana.

R5 elves.
G1 i miss bussines in front of his deathrite but have 2 lands 2 dark ritual 2 led.
G2 i combo after his mull to 6 therapy his drs t1
G3 i nauseam t3 and pasa turn at 3 life facing his null rod and and a fetch + simbiote. So gg next turn.

Fluster was missed. Not having nauseam g1 sucks.
Emtpy was never good.
May be it depends on my meta. With only team america delver and not lots of blue decks. But lots of decks with chalices and so shitt.
Also only having one green land sucks. i was near to die vs infect because I could not search up bayou.

I will keep testing to see what I play in toulouse mkm next week.

[Tom T]

I think you mean Slaughter Games.

Yes, that's what I meant. My bad.

Today I played legacy event. With nevilshute deck -1 grim +1 preordain.
Sb:
2 slaughter games to test them. i would have liked flusterstorm much more. Its better vs elves, and dredge.
2 hurkil. Mud and chalice asholes. Im not sure on loam. Because they play also tegg and hatebers.
3 decay
2 masacre
1 ant
1 burning wish
2 xantid. Still like 3 its just an awesome card when its good.
2 chain
R1 loam
G1 he has ozze t1 drs t2 i make him thing im on omni and he activates in his turn. So i can pif loop. But without his missplay was impossible.
G2 he has t2 canonist. i decay it and he gets t4 tegg. I never find and answer and loose.
G3 he has chalice t1 tegg turn 2 and 2 wastelands...

R2 bye

R3 infect.
G1 i gitaxian and im dead in 2 turns. I know he has fow and i force him to make it to a cabal. And then I wil.
G2 i strip his hand and he has pierce. I probe, brainstorm, play xantid and sacrifice for therapy. Then I natural storm him.

R4 dredge I have 2 leds and infernal. But emtpy dosnt get there and pif also not because I have no rituals. i end up dead.
G2 i just brainstorm into a t1 pif loop.
G3 he therapys t2 getting 2 infenral. Then a ritual and them rain of filth. I die. Even to his no clock but im missing mana.

R5 elves.
G1 i miss bussines in front of his deathrite but have 2 lands 2 dark ritual 2 led.
G2 i combo after his mull to 6 therapy his drs t1
G3 i nauseam t3 and pasa turn at 3 life facing his null rod and and a fetch + simbiote. So gg next turn.

Fluster was missed. Not having nauseam g1 sucks.
Emtpy was never good.
May be it depends on my meta. With only team america delver and not lots of blue decks. But lots of decks with chalices and so shitt.
Also only having one green land sucks. i was near to die vs infect because I could not search up bayou.

I will keep testing to see what I play in toulouse mkm next week.

I think boarding in Flusterstorms against Elves or Dredge is diluding your deck unnecessarily. It's only situationally better than discard in the former and for the latter I don’t think I would really miss them.

[Togores]

I think on the draw therapy is better than some numer of therapys. Its just a good defense vs oppneners therapys. And also vs elves. Because they overload on disruption. And g2 you choke his mana on glimpse, discard and order. Because its usual that you discard some something and they still have bussines. Today I lead both times eith duress vs elves. And one game he had double glimpse. The other doble glimpse + order. Where a fluster is good and discard bad.