[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Izor]

R1 loam
G1 he has ozze t1 drs t2 i make him thing im on omni and he activates in his turn. So i can pif loop. But without his missplay was impossible.

R4 dredge I have 2 leds and infernal. But emtpy dosnt get there and pif also not because I have no rituals. i end up dead.

Not having nauseam g1 sucks.

It really seems that having maindeck AN could have done a lot of work for you there. That's one of the reasons why I still don't like the AN-less lists. It's probably just a question of playstyle, but I kill with AN a lot and I think that a graveyard-independent kill is just a necessity in my local metagame. When my opponent plays a turn 1 DRS or drops a Cage/RiP post board I can just go Plan B instead of trying to fight an uphill battle all game.

[JamieW89]

Top-4 split a local today, without DP's as I don't have 'em yet.
R1: 4c Loam 1-2 (my friend betrayed me and played chalice.dec. t1 chalice on the play beats me g1, goblins beat him g2 by dodging two drawsteps with a lot of outs, goblins don't get there g3*)
R2: Grixis Control 2-1 (I got somewhat lucky because he kept a very shady hand in g3)
R3: BURG Delver 2-1 (I lose g2 by taking too long to finding a land, which, in turn, doesn't allow me to play around a lot. I have to go after my duress gets flustered and he has the force.)
R4: Omnitell 2-1 (Winning through FoW,FoW,Fluster,U,U,SnT,Emrakul by making him counter three things and going off next turn with PiF flashback, wouldn't have worked if he played perfectly though, g3 he kept a risky hand and brainstorm didn't deliver.)
R5: ANT scoop (He scooped me in as I was paired down, but he won 2-1 in the games we did play. He went t1 AdN in the first, fizzled and died to the ritual+tendrils in my hand, but then casually went t2 and t1 postboard).
SF: Grixis Delver Split (I was 1-0 up but probably losing g2 when our friend, who still needed to win for an invitational slot, lost in the other semi so we could go home. I won g1 because he played quite sloppy, and was probably losing g2 with a few lands and LEDs in play versus his 2 shamans, both hellbent after I wasn't able to dodge a blue card in a single drawstep.

*Was an interesting turn-1 ponder on the draw in g3 of the Loam match, I had DR,LED,IT,Land,Land,BS or so with a land on the battlefield and a Ponder on the stack showing Chain, Decay, Ponder. He had opened on land,mox,confidant and as such clearly had no proper hate, but will draw two cards next turn. If I put Chain,Decay,PN and keep I can make 12 goblins and bounce one of his dudes next turn (including a topdecked hatebear), if he draws chalice I can decay it in his next EoT with an answer for a follow-up topdeck in hand. However, if I keep I will be forced to go goblins the majority of the time to which he has at least 3 or 4 outs in his deck plus the ability to stabilize. If I shuffle the ponder I have a decent chance to PiF him out next turn (draw 5 cards from PN,draw & BS) but I do have to dodge his two draws or find another answer. What would you guys do?
a) Make 8 goblins t1 instead of casting Ponder.
b) Keep the Ponder and make 12 goblins next turn if he doesn't have a hatebear/chalice.
c) Keep the Ponder and cantrip more next turn if he doesn't have a hatebear/chalice.
d) Ship the Ponder and try to see as many cards as possible to win with PiF/Tutor Chain next turn.
e) A much better line that I missed.

In other news, everyone I know who's been testing Dark Petition is fairly disappointed with it. I haven't tested a single game with it yet, but it still seems surprising to me since the only real bad spots are connected to its anti-synergy with LED, and we've never considered Ad Nauseam unplayable because of that (and the same LED+cantrip tricks with with DP also).

[Jonathan Alexander]

Do you not have Ad Nauseam in your 75 at all? Seems bad to me to keep in Empty against Loam, with or without Ad Nauseam. I also don't like boarding Chain of Vapor against Chalice decks; did he have Leyline of Sanctity? Either way, I think you're supposed to shuffle the Ponder at that point. Depending on his exact list, Tendrils for twelve might even be better than Empty for six, considering he has Confidant in play.

In other news, for those of you who are too lazy to study my Preordain vs. Ponder spreadsheet, here's a short summary:

• for a library of 54 cards or more, leading Preordain is better so long as x – y ≤ 5
• for a library of 28-54 cards, leading Preordain is better so long as x – y ≤ 6
• for a library of 20-27 cards, leading Preordain is better so long as x – y ≤ 7
• for a library of 14-19 cards, leading Preordain is better so long as x – y ≤ 8
• for a library of 13 cards, leading Preordain is better so long as x – y ≤ 9
• for a library of 12 cards or less, leading Preordain is always better, except for x = 12 and y = 1 (where Preordain and Ponder lead to the same odds)

Further, I'm still interested in opening hands you'd like to see discussed. I already have a couple good ones from on here and facebook, but I wouldn't mind looking at some more.

[JamieW89]

Do you not have Ad Nauseam in your 75 at all? Seems bad to me to keep in Empty against Loam, with or without Ad Nauseam. I also don't like boarding Chain of Vapor against Chalice decks; did he have Leyline of Sanctity? Either way, I think you're supposed to shuffle the Ponder at that point. Depending on his exact list, Tendrils for twelve might even be better than Empty for six, considering he has Confidant in play.

I like Empty because it's the cheapest "kill" and going fast is nice against a deck with a bunch of hateful permanents, it's also insurance against their slaughter games. I board 1-2 chains for the Teeg, Canonists and Leyline of the Voids (and any other random permanents like Choke, Chalice0/2, random beaters sometimes).

I did end up shuffling the ponder. He drew and played chalice@1, I found a second infernal which I used to double LED. He then cast Liliana (having flipped lands twice to bob). I made 12 goblins into that. He dropped Knight and Shaman, traded off bob and then slaughter games'd my Tendrils managing to stabilize on time.

[Pelikanudo]

Had a great weekend, and nice to see so many storm players (Kai, Nevilshute, Slosh) do well.

My matchups in the main event:
Round-1: BUG Delver 2-1 W 1-0
Round-2: RUG Delver 2-0 W 2-0
Round-3: Miracles 2-1 W 3-0
Round-4: Miracles 2-1 W 4-0
Round-5: Grixis Delver 2-0 W 5-0
Round-6: Death & Taxes 2-1 W 6-0
Round-7: Grixis Delver 2-1 W 7-0
Round-8: 4c Loam 1-2 L 7-1
Round-9: 4c Delver 2-0 W 8-1

Round-10: Miracles 2-1 W 9-1
Round-11: BUG Delver 1-2 L 9-2
Round-12: Infect 0-2 L 9-3
Round-13: Miracles 2-0 W 10-3
Round-14: 4c Delver 2-1 W 11-3
Round-15: Burn 2-0 W 12-3

for 12th place due to sick breakers.

I thought about cutting the swarms beforehand, wish I did. Flusterstorm wasn't very useful, but it could have been with loads of omnitell (but omni didn't do that well) as well as some ANT players deep in day-2. Carpet was solid, and a second one might be sweet. Empty was insane against Miracles and Delver postboard, almost played 2-3 SB but opted not to last minute. Top was fine like always. Massacre was underused, but that means it was better than playing 3-4 Dreads. Hurkyl's was a good choice I think with quite a few chalice decks doing well.

I might write a small report later if I feel like it.

@ and Sawatrix
Hi well looking at these results Id like to know how did you side vs miracles and omnitell spefically.
Im aTES player and Im looking for ideas mainly vs miracles... The only thing I still have not tested is +2 K.G. .... The problem again I see is my side space....

I read all of you tournament reports at GP lille and wanted to say all of you you congratulations!!!

[KevinH]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=87940

The day started off pretty good, my only loss early on was due to me punting (somehow I missed that one of my Infernal Tutors didn't have flashback, cost me the game that I already had 100% locked up). After going 5-1, I played against my buddy Jake Xu in the mirror. He had it, I didn't, then I proceeded to lose the next match to Elves (he drew all his sideboard cards and I had stone cold nothing.

Overall, as has been said before, ETW seems so unnecessary. I did cast it a few times, but they were games in which I would have won with a Tendrils anyways. Anyways, Grinding Station is sweet.

[KevinH]

Also, Surgical Extraction was sweet. Against Omnitell, I flusterstormed his first Show and Tell and extracted it. He ended up having to Cunning Wish for Release the Ants to deal me one damage each turn (I just Thoughtseized it and he had literally no win condition).

[festeringGAB]

what about Caleb Scherer list?
15th Place at SCG Legacy Premier IQ Chicago

it seems that dark petition work well

Spells (46)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
3 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dark Petition
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
Lands (14)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volcanic Island
Sideboard (15)
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Tropical Island
75 Cards Total

[Jonathan Alexander]

My article on opening hands is now online: Storm Hands
Thanks to everyone who suggested opening hands, either here or on facebook.

[Patrunkenphat7]

My article on opening hands is now online: Storm Hands
Thanks to everyone who suggested opening hands, either here or on facebook.

Thanks for the article! I disagree with not Probing turn 1 with those hands with all the potential turn 1 plays. Building up for natural Tendrils is incredibly slow with those hands, and I think you are better off Brainstorming it away on turn 2 after Probing and likely Pondering on turn 1. The turn 1 Probe first is important because you could be playing against anything from Delver to MUD to Miracles to Death and Taxes, and your matchup definitely determines your turn 1 play. If you are playing against Miracles, for example, and see that your opponent has Brainstorm, Counterbalance, 2 lands, and some other irrelevant cards, you will likely want to snap off the Duress off a fetched Sea on his Counterbalance turn 1. Similarly if you Probe and your opponent has Ancient Tomb and Chalice, you obviously snap off the Duress there too. If your opponent shows Thalia and some Plains, you know that you need to Ponder and find some immediate action to go off turn 2. You would likely lose in all these scenarios if you simply play your land and pass the turn. These are just a few scenarios, and the possibilities in Legacy are almost endless and range anywhere from Turn 1 Dark Rit, Entomb, Exhume to playing 7 mana accelerants on the draw and a turn 1 Charbelcher.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to write this article; it is wrothwhile to have these discussions because this is such a complicated deck to play, and almost every Storm player is going to make some number of different choices over the course of most games which really speaks to the complexity of the deck and the number of choices available to the Storm pilot.

[JamieW89]

My take on the storm hands:
Hand-1,2: I probe here intending to cantrip on turn-1, most likely brainstorm on turn-2 and then re-evaluate. Opponents hand influences what we fetch and whether we Cantrip/Duress or not. Tendrils is probably getting shuffled back in most matchups.
Hand-3: Agreed, really nice hand.
Hand-4: Agreed, and pretty important I think. Hands without business/real cantrips are weak and this also misses black mana and discard.
Hand-5: Agreed, terrible hand.
Hand-6: Keep, and actually attempt to build a natural tendrils in this case.
Hand-7: I keep this every time. If we hit and the coast is clear we win. If the coast is not clear we don't lose since we find out by probing, and we'll still have a game. We do lose if we never hit a land, but that's okay.
Hand-8: I don't like no-landers that aren't going off any time soon. But for these kind of hands it's pretty good and most likely better than a mulligan. So agreed.
Hand-9: I go for the turn-1 AdN, as the hand doesn't have much potential to grow (no discard/cantrips/land drops). Fizzling, passing, and killing next turn is usually fine too. It does have issues with force though, but that's probably not getting better quickly. So agreed.
Hand-10: This is a real interesting hand to me. I definately agree on not going all-in blind here. We can go fetch->swamp->duress, with the intention of going turn-2. We could also fetch Sea (seems better than Island to me since we'd need another IMS with Island as well, and turn-1 waste isn't the worst if it turns off all non-fow counters for another turn. It also casts Duress.) and cast Preordain aiming to win turn-2 with the discard spell being cast then.

The main thing being casting the probes in the first two hands (just like Pat^). This is probably because I play ANT and you usually play Grinding Station.

[CabalTherapy]

My article on opening hands is now online: Storm Hands
Thanks to everyone who suggested opening hands, either here or on facebook.

Solid stuff but way too many hands with Tendrils but I know that you're playing 300% more Agony than I am.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Solid stuff but way too many hands with Tendrils but I know that you're playing 300% more Agony than I am.

Actually, that's not on me. The only hands that came from me were #6 and #9. #6 is the hand from M4G1 of the daily wonderPreaux and I recorded. #9 is a from a tournament back in 2012.

Also, I think it's pretty interesting how we differ on casting or holding Probe. Everybody I asked who has experience with Grinding Station agrees on holding Probe, so I genuinely wonder if I am overestimating Tendrils or you guys are underestimating it. One thing I think is worth noting is that it's actually not that unlikely hands #1 & #2 produce turn two kills by holding Probe. Probably even more likely than some of the scenarios Pat has listed. Another thing is that I am not afraid of Thalia. I'm fairly sure I have won more games storming through Thalia than I lost to her.
With the way the Legacy metagame currently looks, most decks don't do anything relevant on turn one, even turn two is rare. The relevant stuff usually happens on turn three these days (Show and Tell, Counterbalance actually becomes more than Chalice, Grixis starts chaining Therapies).

[Patrunkenphat7]

So I want to apologize because I completely missed that you were on a Grinding Station list, sorry about that! That said I don't think I have enough experience to say what I would do in that type of list. I definitely stand by my play if I draw that hand with my ANT-ish list though.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Does it matter what list we're on though? I don't think it does for any of those hands, except for #10, which needs Ad Nauseam in the deck. Do you play a hand based on what you draw or based on how you filled the last three slots in your maindeck? Both the 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Past in Flames, 1 Tendrils that Kai popularised, as well as my 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames, 2 Tendrils lits are only two cards different from the regular Grinding Station setup. The idea behind running multiple Tendrils is to draw it more often so you can plan for playing it from your hand. But if you already have it despite playing only one? You can still reliably play to set it up, because you don't need good odds to find it, as you already have it.

The current core of the deck is pretty much this:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth / Cabal Ritual

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou/Badlands
4 Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain / Sensei's Divining Top split
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize / Duress

Then the remaining three slots are filled with combinations of Ad Nauseam, Empty the Warrens, Past in Flames, Tendrils of Agony, Preordain & Grim Tutor. If you draw any of those cards with any of the natural Tendrils hands, it doesn't even matter which one it is. It will either be a dead draw and be one of the cards shuffled back with Brainstorm, or you draw it along a combination which lets you cast it, but that basically means the Tendrils already becomes lethal, or, in the case of Empty, it rewards the same line of play.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I generally understand "Grinding Station" as several Tendrils and several PiF with the intent to draw the Tendrils and PiF some mana to kill. I would consider what you are describing to be very close to ANT, and I would stick to my play of probing turn 1.

I think those hands bring up an interesting question about the list because I really don't feel like tendrils is strong in those openers, and you are running more copies with the intent to draw it more often presumably. I love multiple PiF though, as that is a card that would be nice to have in your opener against a variety of decks if you put that in the place of the tendrils.

[Sloshthedark]

My take on the storm hands:
Hand-1,2: I probe here intending to cantrip on turn-1, most likely brainstorm on turn-2 and then re-evaluate. Opponents hand influences what we fetch and whether we Cantrip/Duress or not. Tendrils is probably getting shuffled back in most matchups.
Hand-3: Agreed, really nice hand.
Hand-4: Agreed, and pretty important I think. Hands without business/real cantrips are weak and this also misses black mana and discard.
Hand-5: Agreed, terrible hand.
Hand-6: Keep, and actually attempt to build a natural tendrils in this case.
Hand-7: I keep this every time. If we hit and the coast is clear we win. If the coast is not clear we don't lose since we find out by probing, and we'll still have a game. We do lose if we never hit a land, but that's okay.
Hand-8: I don't like no-landers that aren't going off any time soon. But for these kind of hands it's pretty good and most likely better than a mulligan. So agreed.
Hand-9: I go for the turn-1 AdN, as the hand doesn't have much potential to grow (no discard/cantrips/land drops). Fizzling, passing, and killing next turn is usually fine too. It does have issues with force though, but that's probably not getting better quickly. So agreed.
Hand-10: This is a real interesting hand to me. I definately agree on not going all-in blind here. We can go fetch->swamp->duress, with the intention of going turn-2. We could also fetch Sea (seems better than Island to me since we'd need another IMS with Island as well, and turn-1 waste isn't the worst if it turns off all non-fow counters for another turn. It also casts Duress.) and cast Preordain aiming to win turn-2 with the discard spell being cast then.

The main thing being casting the probes in the first two hands (just like Pat^). This is probably because I play ANT and you usually play Grinding Station.

1,2,3 Agree with Jamie, there is what I think is different with Grinding Station
4, would not mulligan, cast a GP, play a land, pass if not a cantrip, LP or IT, otherwise GP again if no obstacles revealed
5, don't love it but keep if playing multiple ToA (list relevant for me there)
6, keep, would start with GP as drawing an Island is a significant progress, CT might be good in some situations, IT would be great if playing EtW (list relevant for me there)
7, keep
8, mull, would consider keeping on draw if I knew what I'm up against (would be really interesting if Preordain was a Brainstorm instead)
9, agreed
10, Sea -> Preordain, Sea -> Ritual if playing EtW (list relevant for me there)

[Jonathan Alexander]

8, mull, would consider keeping on draw if I knew what I'm up against (would be really interesting if Preordain was a Brainstorm instead)

I was going to ask if you ever mull any hand, but this suprised me even more than keeping the other hands. What makes you mull this and why is it different with Preordain over Brainstorm?

10, Sea -> Preordain, Sea -> Ritual if playing EtW (list relevant for me there)

You feel like turn one goblins plus discard is better than turn two Past in Flames with discard? Interesting.


Also, I still feel I haven't gotten an explanation why hands #1&2 are dependant on the deck list. I don't see how it matters if I run it with the intent to draw it or not when I have already drawn it. It doesn't matter why it is there, it matters what it does, and in my eyes you are throwing away a win condition in order to look for a win condition, which just doesn't make sense. It's like shuffling away Nimble Mongoose to search for Delver when you already have threshold.

[JamieW89]

Also, I still feel I haven't gotten an explanation why hands #1&2 are dependant on the deck list. I don't see how it matters if I run it with the intent to draw it or not when I have already drawn it. It doesn't matter why it is there, it matters what it does, and in my eyes you are throwing away a win condition in order to look for a win condition, which just doesn't make sense. It's like shuffling away Nimble Mongoose to search for Delver when you already have threshold.

For me the more salient issue is not using a different decklist (you explained it well above, they're quite similar for this hand), but rather our experiences as pilots of different decks. You, more used to natural tendrils approaches, might be more inclined to overvalue a Tendrils in hand. In contrast, most other posters, who often pilot more traditional ANT or hybrid lists, tend to be programmed to see Tendrils as a bad card and try to get rid of it and as such might well undervalue the card and natural lines.

Without the Brainstorm I'd be more interested in keeping the probe and finding a tendrils line though, and in this scenario we might still go for it depending on our turn-1 and 2 cantrips/draws (e.g. if we find a PiF we can keep the tendrils and don't need to find a tutor) and matchup.

[Jonathan Alexander]

While this is the very answer I was hoping not to get, I'll have to thank you for your time. I might do some goldfishing with this hand to figure out which play leads to faster kills, just because.

In other news, this week, LSV's "What's the Play" is a scenario with Storm: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...egacy-edition/
I'm inclined to think you have no business winning that game, but eh.