[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[crush]

When and why do you guys board out a copy of Infernal Tutor and LED?

1) vs. Meddling Mage decks?
2) when things will get long and you expect to draw one eventually or naturally draw tendrils?
3) other reasons?

Second question, do you ever board in Abrupt Decay vs any decks with Wasteland (assuming no Chalice of the Void)?

Thanks!

[Lemnear]

Bring in Flusterstorm and Ad Nauseam against Elves and call it a day.

@Trygon Predator,Pernicious Deed and friends: If my spells resolve against Miracle they should be Infernal Tutor and Dark Ritual instead of those "solutions".
I still appreciate all your ideas.

I don't like Flusterstorm at all against Elves. Trying to catch "untap, cast NO" with basically a Spell Pierce against a deck which can produce a bazillion of mana by turn 3 isn't hot.

Wasn't the topic "how to make Infernal and Dark Ritual resolve against SDT/Counterbalance/MeddlingMage/Canonist?"

Edit:

Second question, do you ever board in Abrupt Decay vs any decks with Wasteland (assuming no Chalice of the Void)

To destroy what permanent you care for?

[crush]

Edit:

To destroy what permanent you care for?

Sorry for not being clear enough..
What I meant was: do you ever board in Abrupt Decays vs any Delver.dec, Merfolk, etc. besides or instead of a couple Chain of Vapors to take care of problematic permanents at the risk of having the Decays stranded in your hand after a couple of Wastelands?
The plus side is they can buy you some time by permanently removing their clock
(until the find another one obviously..)

[Lans89]

I don't like Flusterstorm at all against Elves. Trying to catch "untap, cast NO" with basically a Spell Pierce against a deck which can produce a bazillion of mana by turn 3 isn't hot.

Yeah, because 70% of the Elves players don't play a mix of 5-6 duress/cabal therapy? I think Flusterstorm is great! Maybe think of a different plan on the play vs on the draw, but I'm not sure. Also vs NO and Zenith, they will have to chain some spells if they want to get it down early enough.

[Echelon]

Also vs NO and Zenith, they will have to chain some spells if they want to get it down early enough.

For a T2 kill, yes. For a T3 kill, no.

In most cases a Duress from the Storm player does the same thing proactively what Flusterstorm tries to do reactively. If you want to use it to counter the big spell, you introduce the risk of getting Thoughtseized/Therapied/whatever'd while waiting for your chance to use it.

As a Storm pilot, you should be used to battling stuff like Mindbreak Trap yet do not recognize how you usually deal with that yourself?

[Togores]

Flusterstorm is really good vs elves. Pseudo time walks countering his discards and his bussiness
When I have lost to elves it was usuaaly because they have much more bussines/discard I could counter or that I discarted glimpse/order but they ripped on of the top and killed me.
Flusterstorm makes them use his mana and waste it in out fluster. Also we can ritual or brainstorm to make flusterstom bigger.

[Lans89]

For a T2 kill, yes. For a T3 kill, no.

In most cases a Duress from the Storm player does the same thing proactively what Flusterstorm tries to do reactively. If you want to use it to counter the big spell, you introduce the risk of getting Thoughtseized/Therapied/whatever'd while waiting for your chance to use it.

As a Storm pilot, you should be used to battling stuff like Mindbreak Trap yet do not recognize how you usually deal with that yourself?

I'm not saying I side out discard? Flusterstorm should at least be worth playing on the play, when you have the chance to counter their early discard. You will probably say that you'd rather have the speed there. One could also argue that flusterstorm is better on the draw because Elves could be one turn to fast if you don't have the counter. So I'm not 100% on that either. Most of the time I just go +2 fluster +2 Chain of Vapor (single Ruric/Null Rod/buy time/extra storm after my hand is wrecked) and -1 top -1 cabal ritual -2 preordain. Maybe I'm a bit biased because, when playing Elves, I always play Ruric main, especially since Omnitell is out there and not just Storm.

[Ghiwo]

If you want better Ad Nauseams, play an additional Tendrils.

Can you explain a little bit on that? I'm really interested in it, but struggle to understand how I get better Ad Nauseams if I add another cc4 spell in my deck. Thanks a lot!


Talking about Miracles, if they start shifting to white hatebears maybe we can just pack a higher number of solutions, differenced between Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip and Wipe Away. I'll start testing these maybe. Unfortunately last week there were tons of Miracles around me but didn't get paired against one of them, so I could grow an impression.

Flusterstorm: I would never cut them from my board, because they are just too good against OmniTell, but I don't like to bring 'em in against Elves, and agree with Lemnear. I like to be proactive against Elves, and I don't want to dilute my deck too much. I just try to be a turn faster than them. I bring in just 2 chains for a land and a Top, because they often have Thorn or Gaddok or other permanent hate. Discard their key spell and gain advantage from them having to find another.

@crush: taking in removal against tempo decks is a bad idea. They usually buy more time to the opponent due to you having a brick in hand than the time they buy you by bouncing or Decay-ing a Delver. Against those decks just kill 'em before they kill you, it's what our deck does

[Echelon]

I'm not saying I side out discard? Flusterstorm should at least be worth playing on the play, when you have the chance to counter their early discard. You will probably say that you'd rather have the speed there. One could also argue that flusterstorm is better on the draw because Elves could be one turn to fast if you don't have the counter. So I'm not 100% on that either. Most of the time I just go +2 fluster +2 Chain of Vapor (single Ruric/Null Rod/buy time/extra storm after my hand is wrecked) and -1 top -1 cabal ritual -2 preordain. Maybe I'm a bit biased because, when playing Elves, I always play Ruric main, especially since Omnitell is out there and not just Storm.

One should argue Flusterstorm is worse in the case that Elves! manages to outrun you, simply b/c by that time they most likely will have the discard to get rid of your Flusterstorm before pressing the "I win"-button where a Duress in that same slot as Flusterstorm would have taken the NO/GSZ/Glimpse they needed to do anything that turn.

Again, in this strategy Flusterstorm suffers from the same flaw as any other reactive spell. It gets stripped from your hand before you get the chance to use it.

[Lans89]

One should argue Flusterstorm is worse in the case that Elves! manages to outrun you, simply b/c by that time they most likely will have the discard to get rid of your Flusterstorm before pressing the "I win"-button where a Duress in that same slot as Flusterstorm would have taken the NO/GSZ/Glimpse they needed to do anything that turn.

Again, in this strategy Flusterstorm suffers from the same flaw as any other reactive spell. It gets stripped from your hand before you get the chance to use it.

Stop comparing Flusterstorm with Duress. I'm not siding out discard, nor do I have extra copies in my sideboard.
If they strip flusterstorm the same turn they go off I'm just lost, if they strip it once they see it the turn before they go off I would be very happy. Slower storm lists could easily fit a couple Flusterstorm in postboard.

Now let's assume you do side +2 CoV +2 Fluster, would you rather cut Grim tutor or Preordain? Different on the play or on the draw? Or should I even consider other cards instead of -1 Top -1 C. Ritual -2 Preordain? I play a 'normal' ANT shell with 1 PiF, 1 Tendrills, 1 AdN, 1 Grim Tutor, 1 Top, 2 Preordain main. Help me out :)!

[wonderPreaux]

Can you explain a little bit on that? I'm really interested in it, but struggle to understand how I get better Ad Nauseams if I add another cc4 spell in my deck. Thanks a lot!

Simply, regardless of what you turn over with Ad Nauseam, the aim is to win with Tendrils, right?

If you have more ToA main deck, you increase the likelihood that you can just turn over some rituals and a ToA, play it all and then win. With just 1 Tendrils, you're often relying on Infernal Tutor, which then also relies on LED. Turning over 3 sorts of cards (Tutor + LED + Rituals) is a touch more difficult than turning over 2 sorts (ToA + Rituals), especially since early Ad Nauseams are, themselves, often fueled off LEDs.

[Rokkastut]

Simply, regardless of what you turn over with Ad Nauseam, the aim is to win with Tendrils, right?

If you have more ToA main deck, you increase the likelihood that you can just turn over some rituals and a ToA, play it all and then win. With just 1 Tendrils, you're often relying on Infernal Tutor, which then also relies on LED. Turning over 3 sorts of cards (Tutor + LED + Rituals) is a touch more difficult than turning over 2 sorts (ToA + Rituals), especially since early Ad Nauseams are, themselves, often fueled off LEDs.

Does that mean that vs really fast decks (Elves, Belcher, Ooops) you would like Ad Nauseam + 2/3 Tendrils? I don't see how it would benefit as in situations where there is no interraction, when you go off with Ad Nauseam you win (Even with just a single Tendrils).

[Jonathan Alexander]

Can you explain a little bit on that? I'm really interested in it, but struggle to understand how I get better Ad Nauseams if I add another cc4 spell in my deck. Thanks a lot!

Basically what wonderPreaux said. You're not required to hit LED when you reveal Tendrils. I have tested a lot of configurations to see what produces the best Ad Nauseams. With 2 Tendrils, 1 Past in Flames, 4 Dark Ritual, 3 Cabal Ritual, 1 Rain of Filth, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 1 Chrome Mox, the results were the best. I tested almost all of the common configurations and a few more uncommon ones, as the one above.

Talking about Miracles, if they start shifting to white hatebears maybe we can just pack a higher number of solutions, differenced between Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip and Wipe Away. I'll start testing these maybe. Unfortunately last week there were tons of Miracles around me but didn't get paired against one of them, so I could grow an impression.

If they really go in the direction Kai is describing, the matchup becomes a lot worse. It's already gotten worse thanks to Dig Through Time, and with that also fuelling OmniShow, they have a reason to pack loads of combohate, which is also very bad for us. I don't think we're at the point where storm isn't playable anymore, but I could definitely see it happen soon.

Flusterstorm: I would never cut them from my board, because they are just too good against OmniTell, but I don't like to bring 'em in against Elves, and agree with Lemnear. I like to be proactive against Elves, and I don't want to dilute my deck too much. I just try to be a turn faster than them. I bring in just 2 chains for a land and a Top, because they often have Thorn or Gaddok or other permanent hate. Discard their key spell and gain advantage from them having to find another.

I said before that I'm not arguing Flusterstorm vs. Elves anymore, but please don't board below below 15 permanent mana sources.

@crush: taking in removal against tempo decks is a bad idea. They usually buy more time to the opponent due to you having a brick in hand than the time they buy you by bouncing or Decay-ing a Delver. Against those decks just kill 'em before they kill you, it's what our deck does

I only skimmed through the last couple of posts, but you don't want to board Decay vs. Delver decks to kill their Delvers, you want outs to Meddling Mage. Also, killing them before they kill you usually means going off on turn five or six, and by that time, it will actually be relevant to kill their permanent hate.

Does that mean that vs really fast decks (Elves, Belcher, Ooops) you would like Ad Nauseam + 2/3 Tendrils? I don't see how it would benefit as in situations where there is no interraction, when you go off with Ad Nauseam you win (Even with just a single Tendrils).

We're talking only one additional Tendrils, the third Tendrils is too much. In that case, the answer is usually yes, unless you need the space otherwise. It helps in that your Ad Nauseam becomes more reliable.

[Togores]

With my deck I usualy board vs elves
+2 fluster
+2 chain

-2 top
-2 therapy (out of 3)

They have too much diferent hate and therapy blind is too much a gamble. Thats dont affecting our speed. But is afecing our disruption.

Also sometimes i trimm third therapy for instead letting 1 top, or may be I cut the swamp and play 2 therapys. More or less its usualy so.

[Lemnear]

Sorry for not being clear enough..
What I meant was: do you ever board in Abrupt Decays vs any Delver.dec, Merfolk, etc. besides or instead of a couple Chain of Vapors to take care of problematic permanents at the risk of having the Decays stranded in your hand after a couple of Wastelands?
The plus side is they can buy you some time by permanently removing their clock
(until the find another one obviously..)

As hinted before, the only permanents you want to take out with Decay rather than with CoV or DoN/Massacre is either Chalice or Counterbalance. If none of the later two is present, don't board Decays.

Yeah, because 70% of the Elves players don't play a mix of 5-6 duress/cabal therapy? I think Flusterstorm is great! Maybe think of a different plan on the play vs on the draw, but I'm not sure. Also vs NO and Zenith, they will have to chain some spells if they want to get it down early enough.

So the matchup turns into a discard galore on both sides. Still bears the question how Flusterstorm should help you here if they topdeck a NO turn 3 or later after they stripped your combo-parts and have a natural clock going? Your best bet is to discard their discard or combo paets and race them actively instead of hoping your opponent is an idiot playing straight into Flusterstorm. Honestly, Elves! postboard gameplan is to cast discard early and follow up with NO turn 3. That's your benchmark given that T1 discard is never followed by turn two NO

I'm not saying I side out discard? Flusterstorm should at least be worth playing on the play, when you have the chance to counter their early discard. You will probably say that you'd rather have the speed there. One could also argue that flusterstorm is better on the draw because Elves could be one turn to fast if you don't have the counter. So I'm not 100% on that either. Most of the time I just go +2 fluster +2 Chain of Vapor (single Ruric/Null Rod/buy time/extra storm after my hand is wrecked) and -1 top -1 cabal ritual -2 preordain. Maybe I'm a bit biased because, when playing Elves, I always play Ruric main, especially since Omnitell is out there and not just Storm.

Please. Is your gameplan against Elves to play "land, go" rather than aggressively cantripping into t.hold and the combo? You are too focussed on the turn two NO here while the only scenario where Fluster is better than discard is them topdecking the NO here. Once your opponent enters turn 3 the value of Fluster does down the drain and you wasted time to assemble your combo by keeping blue mana up.

Can you explain a little bit on that? I'm really interested in it, but struggle to understand how I get better Ad Nauseams if I add another cc4 spell in my deck. Thanks a lot!

You don't need to find Infernal+LED to have access to ToA. If you reveal it to AN and have 4 mana somehow, your opponent is dead. It however does mean that you might have some iffy draws.

Stop comparing Flusterstorm with Duress. I'm not siding out discard, nor do I have extra copies in my sideboard.
If they strip flusterstorm the same turn they go off I'm just lost, if they strip it once they see it the turn before they go off I would be very happy. Slower storm lists could easily fit a couple Flusterstorm in postboard.

Now let's assume you do side +2 CoV +2 Fluster, would you rather cut Grim tutor or Preordain? Different on the play or on the draw? Or should I even consider other cards instead of -1 Top -1 C. Ritual -2 Preordain? I play a 'normal' ANT shell with 1 PiF, 1 Tendrills, 1 AdN, 1 Grim Tutor, 1 Top, 2 Preordain main. Help me out :)!

What you seem to underestimate is the slowdown caused by keeping blue mana up instead of using it to cantrip and feed t.hold. Even if you have two lands in your opener, the habit slows you down by at least 1 turn while the Flusterstorm is pointless by turn 3 itself. This is no acceptable timeframe to shine imo.

Edit:

With my deck I usualy board vs elves
+2 fluster
+2 chain

-2 top
-2 therapy (out of 3)

They have too much diferent hate and therapy blind is too much a gamble. Thats dont affecting our speed. But is afecing our disruption.

Also sometimes i trimm third therapy for instead letting 1 top, or may be I cut the swamp and play 2 therapys. More or less its usualy so.

You name NO blind and if they don't have it, you have time until turn 3 anyways to combo (topdecked NO and Turn 2 with 4 mana aside). I think that is more than reasonable. I don't get SDT here. You can't grind them out or keep them at bay with SDT+Flusterstorm. This is a damn race and no control matchup

[JamieW89]

I board in Flusterstorms on the play vs Elves (basicly like Togores, sdt(/preordain)/therapies out and 2 chains + 2 fluster in otp. I don't like boarding out cabal rit in this MU because speed is key), but I don't like them on the draw.

[Sloshthedark]

In this case, wouldn't a single Entreat the Angels do the job? You just have to be careful about counterspells in their hand. Just play the control game (with ANT, lol). Get a LED and TOP into play and ETA on top of library. I have had some good results with this card in g2/g3 against slow decks that side out removal.

Counterspells alone is not the problem in the MU, if EtA come through any kill mode will, I also had some nice games with EtA in DDFT but did not dare to play it in Ant yet and I still prefered it against hatebears

Pernicious Deed to get rid of Hatebears and Counterbalance? Sounds really interesting, similar to engineered explosives. Haven't tested both cards so far so I can't tell if they are good or not. Maybe you can Martin :)

I have this from BDP years ago (he had 4 deed as SB plan prior AD in DD/Shelldock Ant), actually for quite some time I played AD/Deed split, it had to be decent because I cared to have them japanese, I can't remember any inpactful play outside of crusing Elves w Flusterstorm once... Haven't cast in in last ~year but certainly a thing to try, 3 is decent CC, dodges Flusterstorm, so should be FoW magnet at worst, controls te board very well but dies to EE and W+T/Disenchant of which at least 1 is usualy present... is certainly much better than EE

With so many problems,is a bad idea to try to win asap?
I mean something like this:
+3/4 decay
+2/3 xantid swarm
+1 etw

No, but does this win asap? and what if it does not (esp. on draw)?

It's not outright hilarious if you don't run Ad Nauseam, but slow and mana-intense as fuck. At this point you can ponder about Tygon Predator for dealing with SDT/Counterbalance/Canonist/Rest In Piece/MUD/etc.

Trygon has to attack and kills 1 permanent, maybe, even worse - it's creature and U...

Just somme quick questions, that probably get a long answer.

1. What is our best strategy against BUG Delver? (and sideboard plan), what about RUG-, UWR-, Grixis Delver, and Deathblade s there alot difference?

2. What is out best strategy against Elves? Just go faster? Or grinding station? What about sideboarding?

1.
BUG - I'm more towards AD (on 2 G lands), EtW and Ad Nauseam atm
RUG - I always loved XS, more stormspells, no Ad Nauseam
UWR - best strategy - kill everything, let the game get drag long, EtW is decent, No Ad Nauseam needed
UBR - haven't played enough
4c - hard for me to say, they can have anything, I'd go light boarding with CoV and AD aim for Ad Nauseam

first 3 - basicaly the longer the game gets without them having pressure the better is your position
last 2 - I'd prefer to go off asap before stuff in vein of Pyromancer+CT / DRS+liliana /Snapcaster+Extraction happens

2.
be faster, Ad Nauseam needed if the game gets longer

Bring in Flusterstorm and Ad Nauseam against Elves and call it a day.

@Trygon Predator,Pernicious Deed and friends: If my spells resolve against Miracle they should be Infernal Tutor and Dark Ritual instead of those "solutions".
I still appreciate all your ideas.

I'd board in any Extirpate before a Flusterstorm

but they won't without any kind of "solution"

While we are on the topic of strange man-plans: anyone tried grim lavamancer? Against miraclea he picks off hatebears and also applys pressure through the lock if he comes down before cb. Horrible draw lategame though.

that card is horrible... you are down 2 cards for 2 dmg voluntarily, it'd be better to play 15 Fireballs in the SB

That's actually kinda funny. Unfortunately I think he's bad simply because you would need to play 4 of them for him to come down early. I say we just play a Delver SB like:

4 Delver
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
4 Force
3 Tombstalker

And just get em

On serious note - something like 12 creatures is defnitely a possibility, in online enviroment it might be playable, irl - once your plan is known the deck experience gets miserable

When and why do you guys board out a copy of Infernal Tutor and LED?

1) vs. Meddling Mage decks?
2) when things will get long and you expect to draw one eventually or naturally draw tendrils?
3) other reasons?

Second question, do you ever board in Abrupt Decay vs any decks with Wasteland (assuming no Chalice of the Void)?

Thanks!

1-3, would not do so

yes against UBG (at 2 G lands) and UWR (at 1G+ lands) tempo/midrange decks to get rid of early/problematic creatures and Null rod like permanents

If they really go in the direction Kai is describing, the matchup becomes a lot worse. It's already gotten worse thanks to Dig Through Time, and with that also fuelling OmniShow, they have a reason to pack loads of combohate, which is also very bad for us. I don't think we're at the point where storm isn't playable anymore, but I could definitely see it happen soon.

true ... disagree on unplayability - 3 cannonist standard in Miracles won't wipe out an archetype

[Rokkastut]

Slosh: vs BUG; do you mean you go -1 ETW, -1 Ad Nauseam, +2 Abrupt Decay?

I just played some post SB matches and Null Rod was difficult to beat (AD will fix this), but he also har Surgical Extraction in addition to Counters(with Fluster) and Discard... this matchup feels more difficult than Miracles.

Why not the Xantid Swarm? (Against counters) or Flusterstorm? (Against counters and discard), what about Chain of Vapor?

[Ghiwo]

Basically what wonderPreaux said. You're not required to hit LED when you reveal Tendrils. I have tested a lot of configurations to see what produces the best Ad Nauseams. With 2 Tendrils, 1 Past in Flames, 4 Dark Ritual, 3 Cabal Ritual, 1 Rain of Filth, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 1 Chrome Mox, the results were the best. I tested almost all of the common configurations and a few more uncommon ones, as the one above.

Thank you, and all of you guys who replied me. The answer was so easy, my fault not to recognize it before writing.

If they really go in the direction Kai is describing, the matchup becomes a lot worse. It's already gotten worse thanks to Dig Through Time, and with that also fuelling OmniShow, they have a reason to pack loads of combohate, which is also very bad for us. I don't think we're at the point where storm isn't playable anymore, but I could definitely see it happen soon.

That seems exaggerated to me, Storm won't be unplayable. We will find a solution, will it be Wipe Away or Pernicious Deed, as Slosh suggested, or other.. And also, luckily the field isn't 95% Miracles I'm not a Miracles expert, but if they commit so much against combo maybe they are weaking themselves against something else. That to say that metagame predictions aren't so certain right now. Just my thoughts..

I said before that I'm not arguing Flusterstorm vs. Elves anymore, but please don't board below below 15 permanent mana sources.

Why? I felt really comfortable going to 14 in combo mirrors.

I only skimmed through the last couple of posts, but you don't want to board Decay vs. Delver decks to kill their Delvers, you want outs to Meddling Mage. Also, killing them before they kill you usually means going off on turn five or six, and by that time, it will actually be relevant to kill their permanent hate.

Of course I know that vs. Meddling Mage (UWR Delver) you bring Chains in. I was giving a reply to that guy who asked if someone boards Decay and Chain to kill their Delvers and guys. I thought about RUG Delver and Team America, that's why I replied that you don't want them. I thought that Meddling was obvious

[Jonathan Alexander]

true ... disagree on unplayability - 3 cannonist standard in Miracles won't wipe out an archetype

That seems exaggerated to me, Storm won't be unplayable. We will find a solution, will it be Wipe Away or Pernicious Deed, as Slosh suggested, or other.. And also, luckily the field isn't 95% Miracles I'm not a Miracles expert, but if they commit so much against combo maybe they are weaking themselves against something else. That to say that metagame predictions aren't so certain right now. Just my thoughts..

My fault for not being specific, sorry guys. I don't think Miracles list packing 3 Ethersworn Canonist means Storm is unplayable. Miracles packing 5+ bears, even two copies of Flusterstorm in the board and maybe some form of graveyard hate is a different animal though. The matchup has gotten a lot worse since Dig Through Time already, now if they start really gearing towards beating combo, I don't see much land. Imagine a world where you basically always have to beat two permanents and two counterspells. This is already rough, but figure in Top floating Flusterstorm and Dig Through Time being insane and you got yourself an atrociously bad matchup. The only way to win against stuff like that is going full-on glass cannon. Maybe not full-on, but how are you ever going to win a long game against such a deck?

Pretty sure this is not a satisfactory answer, but it's hard for me to concentrate right now. I'll go back and answer this again after I've gotten some sleep if you like.

Why? I felt really comfortable going to 14 in combo mirrors.

I like 14 lands + 1 Mox in combo mirrors. But I tend to care more about my mana than most, regardless of deck and format.

Of course I know that vs. Meddling Mage (UWR Delver) you bring Chains in. I was giving a reply to that guy who asked if someone boards Decay and Chain to kill their Delvers and guys. I thought about RUG Delver and Team America, that's why I replied that you don't want them. I thought that Meddling was obvious

I do board Decays against Jeskai Delver, just not to kill Delver. That was all I was saying. Chain gets countered, ergo it's bad. Pretty sure I either misread your post or I wasn't replying to you directly. Can't remember now. I just wanted to state my opinion on the matter.

Sorry if this is a mess.