[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[owerbart]

Knowing nothing about your meta, I guess a really generic list would look something like this:

2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain

1 Preordain/Sensei's Divining Top/Grim Tutor

4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony

Obviously, a "generic" sideboard would be kind of strange to contribute because a sideboard does have to be tooled towards your meta, but you probably would end up running some number of Chain of Vapor, Xantid Swarm and Abrupt Decay.

@nevil very cool, I'll definitely give that a look. For the past couple days I've been trying to test SB Jaces against Miracles, and I could never get paired against one on MTGO! I guess you found them all for me, heh

Thanks for the help man. I'll be testing that list soon to start getting experience with this deck. I also checked your stream, really nice

[wonderPreaux]

-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Cabal Ritual / Rain of Filth
-1 Swamp
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Infernal Tutor

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Abrupt Decay
+3 Flusterstorm
+1 Krosan Grip
+1 Bayou

Not sure on Cabal Ritual vs. Rain; I think Rain is worse after boarding as it doesn't synergise with endstep Ad Nauseam.

That's a very interesting take on Miracles, reminds me of Togores' heavy green board with 4 Decay, 2 Grip, 3 total Top and, iirc, 2 total ToA.

I gather you use your natural Storm for wins, with Ad Nauseam and PiF acting as bombs, and Flusterstorm provides support by hitting counters or Entreats. I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip and if you think 2 Tops is enough or if a third might have value. It seems the Flusterstorms are better when you can hide yours too, as that somewhat facilitates a standard Tutor+LED line and Top protects all this from Clique, to an extent.

One thing I have to wonder is if you wouldn't be better off with some sort of 2:1 split of Fluster/Extirpate, perhaps? Extirpate can break a floating counter and be played before a standard Tutor+LED all-in, and has some use against combo as well. Though, I'd probably keep all the Probes when playing Extirpate, so you know when to move in and hit their hand as well as shuffling their deck.

[KevinH]

That's a very interesting take on Miracles, reminds me of Togores' heavy green board with 4 Decay, 2 Grip, 3 total Top and, iirc, 2 total ToA.

I gather you use your natural Storm for wins, with Ad Nauseam and PiF acting as bombs, and Flusterstorm provides support by hitting counters or Entreats. I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip and if you think 2 Tops is enough or if a third might have value. It seems the Flusterstorms are better when you can hide yours too, as that somewhat facilitates a standard Tutor+LED line and Top protects all this from Clique, to an extent.

One thing I have to wonder is if you wouldn't be better off with some sort of 2:1 split of Fluster/Extirpate, perhaps? Extirpate can break a floating counter and be played before a standard Tutor+LED all-in, and has some use against combo as well. Though, I'd probably keep all the Probes when playing Extirpate, so you know when to move in and hit their hand as well as shuffling their deck.

I think it might be going a bit too deep boarding in Extirpate against Miracles...

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think you guys are getting way too cute with cards like Extirpate and Flusterstorm against Miracles. Flusterstorm doesn't hit half the cards you care about, and when you are going off with Infernal you need to be helbent... That card just seems terrible. Extirpate also doesn't do anything in most situations.

Our matchup against Miracles is fine if you run no more than 3 Decay, some number of Xantids to help out with Top floating counters and all their soft counters and red blasts, and then a couple discard spells to fill out your disruption. Anything more than that really dilutes the deck and can put you in a lot of awkward situations.

[wonderPreaux]

I think you guys are getting way too cute with cards like Extirpate and Flusterstorm against Miracles. Flusterstorm doesn't hit half the cards you care about, and when you are going off with Infernal you need to be helbent... That card just seems terrible. Extirpate also doesn't do anything in most situations.

Given a plan of building up to natural Tendrils, you really only lose to floating Flusterstorm or an Entreat, so you put yourself in a position where your own Flusterstorm hits all the cards you care about. Jona's plan cuts half the Tutors and LEDs anyway. As for Extirpate, it serves to break a floating Top/SCM, it can also stop Entreat by responding to the End Step flipping Top. The fact that you can go Decay > Extirpate on the opponent's End Step and then move in with a Tutor play does support more standard lines as well. Extirpate just seems to me to be a decent alternative to something like Grip or Flusterstorm.

[KevinH]

You can always find situations where certain cards will be good, but I really don't think that forcing your opponent to shuffle their deck so they don't get a miracle is a particularly good use of a card. I also don't see how Extirpate is better than Surgical Extraction, the split second seems almost completely irrelevant.

To be fair, I also don't think Flusterstorm is super strong vs. Miracles, as it doesn't do anything against a lot of the cards that you want to counter, but Jona has much more experience than I do with the card/matchup.

Edit-I see that Flusterstorm would be decent if your plan is to go "Grinding" against Miracles, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole if you're trying to go the traditional route.

I think that the Grinding method is pretty much completely off the radar in the US, I'm definitely going to test it out. It could catch a ton of people off guard.

[wonderPreaux]

You can always find situations where certain cards will be good, but I really don't think that forcing your opponent to shuffle their deck so they don't get a miracle is a particularly good use of a card. I also don't see how Extirpate is better than Surgical Extraction, the split second seems almost completely irrelevant.

Split Second means it can't be countered or responded to, I feel that's pretty relevant. Ideally, you use Extirpate to not only shuffle the deck to deny a floating counter or miracle, but you also use it to strip a used counter and thus deny them any copies built up in their hand. Split Second means the opponent can't flip a different Top, Brainstorm in response, or otherwise foil your Extirpate. In the category of "hurts top" i feel its about as worthwhile as Grip or Fluster.

To be fair, I also don't think Flusterstorm is super strong vs. Miracles, as it doesn't do anything against a lot of the cards that you want to counter, but Jona has much more experience than I do with the card/matchup.

Edit-I see that Flusterstorm would be decent if your plan is to go "Grinding" against Miracles, but I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole if you're trying to go the traditional route.

I think that the Grinding method is pretty much completely off the radar in the US, I'm definitely going to test it out. It could catch a ton of people off guard.

I was quoting Jona's posts in all my replies, but I'm sorry if I was unclear. With respect to the value of Fluster/Extirapte/etc., I am talking about natural storm sequences.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I gather you use your natural Storm for wins, with Ad Nauseam and PiF acting as bombs, and Flusterstorm provides support by hitting counters or Entreats. I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip and if you think 2 Tops is enough or if a third might have value. It seems the Flusterstorms are better when you can hide yours too, as that somewhat facilitates a standard Tutor+LED line and Top protects all this from Clique, to an extent.

Yes, that's basically how I play the matchup. A couple pages earlier I mentioned how I didn't like casting Top against Miracles when Grinding, despite the fact that it's insane when it does resolve. Now, with Flusterstorm, I can more reasonably force them through. I am playing it conservatively with the Tops, seeing as I only have two, but they are horrible in multiples. Floating Flusterstorm is only good against opposing combo decks. Trying to enable Infernal Tutor that way doesn't really work - they will just counter the spell you get off Infernal.

One thing I have to wonder is if you wouldn't be better off with some sort of 2:1 split of Fluster/Extirpate, perhaps? Extirpate can break a floating counter and be played before a standard Tutor+LED all-in, and has some use against combo as well. Though, I'd probably keep all the Probes when playing Extirpate, so you know when to move in and hit their hand as well as shuffling their deck.

Against blue decks, Extirpate is too cute, I tried that way back in 2011. It's really only a glorified, but worse, Cabal Therapy. I might want to have one copy for combo matchups regardless, although maybe Slaughter Games is better there. Man, I wanna Slaughter Games people.

[wonderPreaux]

Yes, that's basically how I play the matchup. A couple pages earlier I mentioned how I didn't like casting Top against Miracles when Grinding, despite the fact that it's insane when it does resolve. Now, with Flusterstorm, I can more reasonably force them through. I am playing it conservatively with the Tops, seeing as I only have two, but they are horrible in multiples. Floating Flusterstorm is only good against opposing combo decks. Trying to enable Infernal Tutor that way doesn't really work - they will just counter the spell you get off Infernal.

I was thinking your Tutor would be finding the Tendrils at that point, and thus a floating Fluster beats anything except another Fluster, but that is marginal. So would you do something like play a t2 Top with Fluster backup, for instance? or would you wait for an 8 vs 7 situation so that you might be able to leverage it even farther to a mini tendrils or something?

[KevinH]

I feel like if your opponent is wasting a counterspell on Surgical Extraction, you're on the winning side of that trade.

[Togores]

I do think fluster storm is bad vs miracckes. Its almost impossible ti hit his flusterstorm when he has a lot of lands and also you play the grind game in a long game. That means he will have mana.
Usualy vs miracles you loose vs jace, scm or clicke. They usualy sb entreat out. Or at least should.

ALSO, who will be in Rome this weekend for the 1sr mkm series? I will be playig cool card in modern, Legacy and vintage. So feel free to hit me up and brainsSTORM (: (just put rodrigo togores in google to see how I look).

Wish me luck storming!
;D

[Jonathan Alexander]

Is there any reason for them to float anything but Flusterstorm?

Turn two Top depends on what my hand looks like. It's likely though. If they're tapped out and I can cast Top + Flusterstorm, I will almost always do that, even off Petal.
But overall, there's too many variables in that matchup to make generalisations.

Edit: How many cards are Miracles players supposed to board out against us to not leave in Entreat? 20?

Edit 2:

I'm curious as to how you arrived at a 3:1 split of Decay vs. Grip.

Just realised I didn't answer this. Basically, Krosan Grip hits Leyline of Sanctity. This way, I can board one against Sneak & Show. Other upsides include hitting Top and dodging Extraction on Abrupt Decay, neither of which would be enough to justify it.

[Togores]

Also from a stock list of miracles I would board (expecting anything from ant opponent)
-2 swords
-4 terminus
-3rs jace
-2 entreat
(Still 1 council in main)

For
2 explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 vendilion
2 rest in pieces
1 reb

More or less it would be so.
Also depends on the list but I used a more or less stock aproach.

[wonderPreaux]

Just realised I didn't answer this. Basically, Krosan Grip hits Leyline of Sanctity. This way, I can board one against Sneak & Show. Other upsides include hitting Top and dodging Extraction on Abrupt Decay, neither of which would be enough to justify it.

Against Sneak and Show, do you choose Grip over Chain of Vapors because Grip won't get countered? I saw you don't play Swarm, but having to wait until you find that particular one-of seems dangerous. Do you ever get to catch someone by gripping their Omniscience or something, now that fewer builds play Enter the Infinite?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Yes, when I play Swarm, I tend to board Chain instead. Also, I'm not entirely sure about boarding Empty in addition to that, I haven't tested that enough.
Grip on Omniscience doesn't come up as I don't board it against OmniTell.

[sawatarix]

I remember my miracle opponent last week at round 8 who played a meddling mage on game 2 naming abrupt decay followed by Balance+Top the next turn.

#KickInTheAss

[Patrunkenphat7]

For people wanting to play Exirpate to reset Top, why aren't you just playing Swarm?

[wonderPreaux]

For people wanting to play Exirpate to reset Top, why aren't you just playing Swarm?

Miracles doesn't automatically board out all it's creature removal, and I'd rather have them sit with dead cards. One thing you can do, though, is side into heavy Storm grinding for game 2, and then game 3 side the Swarms in since they would then be expecting natural spell chains not commitment to creatures.

[KevinH]

Miracles doesn't automatically board out all it's creature removal, and I'd rather have them sit with dead cards. One thing you can do, though, is side into heavy Storm grinding for game 2, and then game 3 side the Swarms in since they would then be expecting natural spell chains not commitment to creatures.

You say you'd rather have them sit with dead cards, and yet here you are trying to play Extirpate...seems like faulty logic

[Sloshthedark]

ALSO, who will be in Rome this weekend for the 1sr mkm series?

;D

Me...

I don'thave time to write, preparing for Rome and actual life happening, but I'll try to adress latest stuff shortly...


If you're playing Extirpate to shuffle opps deck, play a different game please... that application can be relevant but purpose of Extirpate against Miracles is Snapcaster Mage, it's interaction with Flusterstorm and to break very long games ... which is obv very off if you're playing XS already... the difference between SE and Extripate is it's meant for different matches, SE is only better vs. Dredge and early Storm games, Extirpate has much more utility against U combo and hard control... and even after all that I play... 1

regarding EtA - (don't tell them) in Ponder list boarding out both is a criminal mistake on their part as a super long game is not a losing position for them threating an instakill

Krosan Grip/AD split - KG can be marginaly better vs. Miracles hitting SDT, as AD is not needed in X vs. UWR/hatebears and other stuff, x-1/1 split should have some benefits..

Flusterstorm vs. Miracles - I can't see why to do that, they utilize the card better

DoN vs. Massacre - that is a serious problem, D+T is wrecked by 1st and can play around 2nd, 2nd wrecks UWR and is good vs. Deathblade, both is bad vs. Teeg ... no real solution (I even tried Sulfur Elemental), that's why I largely prefer to face U decks rather than creature decks, "bye" matches vs g/w decks is myth of 2010, easier to metagame localy but what to play in anymous tournament...

Jona goldfishes - I think there is a major problem of how you/me percieve speed - for me it indicates the turn when you CAN "do your thing" unopposed, if playing aggresively, keeping every semi-rational hand, always 7 cards, T1-T5+... it does not matter if you Ad Nauseam off 4 LP and a land or with 6 mana floating, your way you'd have to test every Ad Nauseam in every goldfish several times to find out .... win = T5 loss is misleading if you're not trying to manage your odds (let's say T1 Duress into T2 better Ad Nauseam, which you'd likely do anyway IRL) ... therefore your speed indication methodology makes the decks slower and is incomparable for me as there is no "attempt but failed" ratio... for EtW I find reasonable expectation EtW that race T2 SFM ... detailed analysis of every mode for killing and used cards is impossible for me, would require x00 of goldfishes for cardchanges to really tell a thing reliably but... I've done a some goldfishing sets but I need finish 1 for a list, I'll try to edit in the evening if I'll make it

EDIT - I did not... partial results - missing the other set 2 for standard list

my list (2pif, 2 Toa, 2SDT, EtW, 3LP 61 cards) vs. etalon list (2 preordain, 1GT, AdN, 4LP60 cards), first set - goldfish by direct comparison (you shuffle your deck, lay it out and goldfish every set of connecting 7 cards as layed out, pulling up used cards, shuffle is continuation in the line using random number generator counting the cards not used as a start point, reaching a kill you move your 1 card in your starting position, getting slightly new 7) = 60 goldfishes - not perfect method but most precise I can think of comparing 2 builds as it face very same situations therefore the results are quite similar (but around 3+ sets should make this great option imo) other set is classic 1on1 vs pillow 50 round deathmatch unfortunately I'm unable to finish it in time

cumulative win%
list 1 60 games
T1 13,33% (5EtW)
T2 38,33% (3EtW)
T3 71,67%
T4 88,33%
T5 100,00%
avg 2,883
avg max T4 2,604

list 2 60 games
T1 15,00% (6 Adn deathrate 66%)
T2 36,67% (3 Adn deathrate 33%)
T3 68,33% (5 Adn deathrate 40%)
T4 88,33%
T5 100,00%
avg 2,90
avg max T4 2,623

set 2

list 1 48 games
T1 4,17%
T2 45,83%
T3 70,83%
T4 87,50%
T5 100,00%

avg 2,917
avg max T4 2,619

btw. looking for hot tech vs. UB Omnitell as Notion Thief doesn't work well with DiG and I try not to play XS... any ideas?