[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[entreri_fans]

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

Hi, of course your dual lands are already enough to build ANT. like other players said previous, you don't necessarily need tropical island.

About the lack of grim tutor, I think that's not a big problem (I myself also don't have), as far as I know, there mainly are 2 alternative plans:

(1) you can play some sensei's divining tops to have a stronger ability to dig for your business, (compared with pure cantrips ANT)

(2) you can play the grinding station versions. you cut Ad Nauseam from your main deck, and add 1 more past in flames and 1 more tendrils (or empty the warrens). thus you will have a higher possibility to combo without infernal tutor.

[owerbart]

Hi, of course your dual lands are already enough to build ANT. like other players said previous, you don't necessarily need tropical island.

About the lack of grim tutor, I think that's not a big problem (I myself also don't have), as far as I know, there mainly are 2 alternative plans:

(1) you can play some sensei's divining tops to have a stronger ability to dig for your business, (compared with pure cantrips ANT)

(2) you can play the grinding station versions. you cut Ad Nauseam from your main deck, and add 1 more past in flames and 1 more tendrils (or empty the warrens). thus you will have a higher possibility to combo without infernal tutor.

Hi

Thanks for the quick answer bro. I'll look for the double PiF versions.

[wonderPreaux]

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

The standard manabase is 15 lands, the rest can be a fairly standard 45 spells: 16 accelerants, 6-7 protection, 4 Tutors, 13-16 cantrips, 3-5 storm cards/engines, 0-3 tech (I count Grim as tech, fwiw)

[Lemnear]

interesting approach, 2 Volcanics+1 Bayou instead of Volcanic Idland+Tropical Island+Badlands

have to give it a try.
Tropical Island has always been a terrible land among all the others because it's almost always Island#2

So i supppse this could be like the new staple manabase

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire (or 4th Misty)

Funny, as it looks like the TES manabase at a certain time :)

The Bayou is pretty good compared to the Tropical as you can cast all protection off it your deck offers. It's only worth mention that you now need 3 IMS' for casting Decay + PIF compared to Tropical Island + Badlands for having access to all 4 colors, but given the fact that you need RB in your comboturn anyways, that isn't much of a difference.

Getting to follow up your U.Sea with a Bayou against Miracles and suddenly be able to cast Duress/Xantid/Decay is a nice feat. enabled by running the Bayou instead of Tropical especially as it never conflicts your cantripping T1/2.

[Sloshthedark]

Those of you running 2 PiF also run 2 Tendrils?
And I'm assuming if the above is true, then AdN is relegated to the sideboard?
Additionally, I assume those running 2 PiF also run a 2nd red land in the main, either volcanic x2 or volc/badlands?

Thanks for the help.

I do, I don't like 3 ToA, and EtW is too powerful to exclude
it is, I don't like it but stil have it in SB
I do Volc+Badlands, I like that manabase much more and also have R in my sideboard, generaly I don't like preboarded lands over fetches so I have G land(s) in SB, If I was on 4+ G spells a Bayou over Badlands is defensible if you don't have the room imo, depends on your SB plans ... not that I also play 2 SDT so B mana is a smaller problem, I'm also not particularly fond of basic lands

is there any ANT list i can assemble if my only duals are 2 U. Seas, a bayou and a volcanic island? i have leds, fetches and all that stuff, i don't have a grim tutor tho :(

anyone you build, it's a good start, GT is not obligatory, the card is obv. bad and expensive but when you get to a certain point of dedication you want to try out everything and then make qualified decision if like it or not, money should not be an issue or argument if you want to build and play to the best of your capabilities

[Ghiwo]

Reasons - Consistency, speed, you develop certain feeling when it is enough to go blind Pif - It feels a bit "Ad Nauseam" but you're managing odds in the process, I goldfished some situations a lot like Jona and I'm fairly aggresive with these at 2 ToA... depends on the MU obv. it's always managing the odds and finding the best spot to win.. btw. first time you get PiF DRSed away just to grab another one is sweet...

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

[Tvox]

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

I play 2 ToA, 2 PiF and 1 EtW along with 1 top, no preordains, 6 discard and 1 Rain of filth in place of 1 cabal ritual. I also include a single burning wish in my flex slots.

The list feels "nicer" to pilot than its AdN counterpart even though the games go about the same way typically. Double PiF obviously makes us more reliant on the grave, but it gives us more than our opponents most of the time.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

3 Tendrils, 2 Past in Flames goldfishes slightly slower than 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Tendrils. In exchange, you are better against countermagic and discard without graveyard hate. Cutting one copy of Tendrils for Empty the Warrens makes you faster, but how reliable it is depends on how much removal your opponents bring. You can generally afford to be slower in game one, plus in most matchups Empty is better after boarding anyway. Not having Ad Nauseam makes your game one worse against Miracles though.

Also, never cut Lotus Petals.

[Togores]

I do like playing 4 lp when running empty. Free mana free storm.

[KevinH]

Yes, you can build pretty much most ANT lists off of those duals, just swap out the Tropical Island for a Fetch or a basic Island. You don't need to play a grim tutor.

[CabalTherapy]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

[Lemnear]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

I'm not sure I get you here, Robert. How should we compare the different approaches (Grim, double PIF+EtW, PIF+AN! 16 cantrips, Multi ToA, etc.) in regards to matchups? It feels like a discussion wouldn't end up nearly objective anyways especially of we take stuff like SDT or SB into consideration as well.

I would however apprechiate to see another Dimension to the imo shallow OP added in terms of builds. A month ago it still was unthinkable for most people to cut AN from the MB and I'm glad discussion is gaining steam again

[davelin]

For those who are playing with multiple PiFs and Empty maindeck, I'm assuming you're still running Decays and Xantid's in the SB. So what does your manabase look like?

[CabalTherapy]

I'm not sure I get you here, Robert. How should we compare the different approaches (Grim, double PIF+EtW, PIF+AN! 16 cantrips, Multi ToA, etc.) in regards to matchups? It feels like a discussion wouldn't end up nearly objective anyways especially of we take stuff like SDT or SB into consideration as well.

I would however apprechiate to see another Dimension to the imo shallow OP added in terms of builds. A month ago it still was unthinkable for most people to cut AN from the MB and I'm glad discussion is gaining steam again

You may be right. There are certainly some problems, however, I thought about something like:
2x PiF, 1x EtW, no Ad N: MU: Miracles: xy (percentage/random figure in a scale)
1y PiF, no EtW, 1 Ad N: MU: Miracles: xy (different percentage/figure)
Concerning Ad Nauseam, I wouldn't cut it in a comboheavy meta for example, but it is perfectly fine in a midrage, tempo meta. I can see it being to complicated or diluting, but another option would be listing MUs in which specific cards (EtW, PiF, AdN) are good/bad in the OP. It's some kind of idea to transfer the knowledge to the OP to prevent repetitions within the thread.

[nevilshute]

For those who are playing with multiple PiFs and Empty maindeck, I'm assuming you're still running Decays and Xantid's in the SB. So what does your manabase look like?

2x U. Sea
Volc
Badlands
Trop
Island
Swamp
4x delta
4x tarn

[Jonathan Alexander]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

While I did not do that exactly, I did something kinda similar a while back. If I remember correctly, I first identified all possible ways to win a game and then took a look at which plan works best against a given deck both pre- and postboard. From that I derived a list that I thought was best assuming a certain saturation of decks one is going to face. This doesn't really help players who haven't reached a certain threshold or proficiency with the deck though, compared to giving a list first and then looking at matchups.
It is, however, something I was looking to revisit with new information available, plus on a broader scale.

[Lemnear]

It's some kind of idea to transfer the knowledge to the OP to prevent repetitions within the thread.

If I learned anything during the years in this forum, then it is, that detailed infos about a topic provided in an OP doesn't keep people from asking questions in regards to that certain topic over and over again

;)

[Sloshthedark]

Really, do you gain speed? That would be awesome to me, being fast and consistent without relying on AN. What especially matters for me is going fast enough to steal the first game vs. Miracles before they land their lock, and the same against D&T.
So you are playing with 2 PIFs, 2 ToAs, and an Etw? Do you have a Top? I imagine you have no preordains and maybe just 6 discard spells or 3 lotus petals.

since most T1 kills involve IT, LED, DR, PIF in hand then yes, I found AdN vs. Pif swap the same in terms of speed about equal, EtW is not a kill per se but costs 4 I definitely wont consider it a speed loss

list still the same

I do like playing 4 lp when running empty. Free mana free storm.

I prefer to see relevant cards if I can, I think at 3 it's a good compromise

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

thats hard to say if some sort of pool or survey would work, it comes down more to what particular player likes, how plays and what plays, I wouln't count on objectivity of the results, this is something a player as to find out himself I think, there is too many small things in the game to make it measurable

[Jonathan Alexander]

since most T1 kills involve IT, LED, DR, PIF in hand then yes, I found AdN vs. Pif swap the same in terms of speed about equal, EtW is not a kill per se but costs 4 I definitely wont consider it a speed loss

This is simply not true. First off, Empty does not kill opposing combo players. It simply doesn't. Also, goldfishing statistics, fifty games each, all on the play, with the following lists:


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


T1: 0
T2: 8
T3: 17
T4: 10
T5+: 15
AVG: 3.64


4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize


T1: 1
T2: 15
T3: 19
T4: 7
T5+: 8
AVG: 3.12


1 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth

1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

1 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize

T1: 2
T2: 20
T3: 11
T4: 6
T5+: 11
AVG: 3.08

Note that Ad Nauseams that fizzle are counted as T5+ kills, which I generally view as losses. Further, the Ad Nauseam lists are postboard versions of Grinding Station, so they're not even fully committed to the plan.

[wonderPreaux]

Since the direction of the current discussion evolves around Ad Nauseam as a card being bad/good in certain MU and Past in Flames 1/2 main, we could create a kind of chart concerning these cards in said MUs. Presumably addressing newer player and maybe also the more experienced ones in order to provide an overview/guideline which list is to be played in a specific meta.
Something like: MUs on the y-axis and the various list with pre/postboard adjustments on the x-axis or otherway around.
The quality of this thread's post is above average and it would be a nice chance create something concrete which then could be placed in the OP.

I'm not sure I get you here, Robert. How should we compare the different approaches (Grim, double PIF+EtW, PIF+AN! 16 cantrips, Multi ToA, etc.) in regards to matchups? It feels like a discussion wouldn't end up nearly objective anyways especially of we take stuff like SDT or SB into consideration as well.

I would however apprechiate to see another Dimension to the imo shallow OP added in terms of builds. A month ago it still was unthinkable for most people to cut AN from the MB and I'm glad discussion is gaining steam again

While I did not do that exactly, I did something kinda similar a while back. If I remember correctly, I first identified all possible ways to win a game and then took a look at which plan works best against a given deck both pre- and postboard. From that I derived a list that I thought was best assuming a certain saturation of decks one is going to face. This doesn't really help players who haven't reached a certain threshold or proficiency with the deck though, compared to giving a list first and then looking at matchups.
It is, however, something I was looking to revisit with new information available, plus on a broader scale.

If there would be enough interest, I could put together a detailed chart like what is being described sometime within this week for the thread.