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Thread: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

  1. #5201

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
    Business: That hasn't to be true. Running one EtW with AdN let's you have the option of creating a lot of guys preboard while still being able to pull of some draws in other games with AdN if necessary; meaning MU = you choose your weapon accordingly. That's why you don't get "delvered" or "bolted to death" because you can simply go for EtW with Tutor in those games (except the games where you fire off AdN from hand of course).
    The main reason I don't like empty with Ad Nauseam is that in the majority of matchups, flipping Empty off Ad Nauseam is just miserable, and when if happens, if it were any other piece of business, I'd be happier. And there's only a small number of matchups where I'm comfortable casting Empty off the Ad Nauseam.
    Last edited by fangzie; 02-12-2017 at 07:40 PM.

  2. #5202

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by fangzie View Post
    The main reason I don't like empty with Ad Nauseam is that in the majority of matchups, flipping Empty off Ad Nauseam is just miserable, and when if happens, if it were any other piece of business, I'd be happier. And there's only a small number of matchups where I'm comfortable casting Empty off the Ad Nauseam.
    Agreed. It's just not where I want to be nowadays. I truly don't understand the people who love it, but clearly I'm in the minority.

    There are increasingly few matchups where I want the Empty the Warrens anyway. I swear I lose as many games to BUG as I win after an empty for 10 or 12. It seems like every time I do that they just dump 3 deathrites the next turn and I watch them eat my goblins and stabilize at 4 or something.

  3. #5203
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by ironclad8690 View Post


    lololol man this deck is fun, turn oned this poor chap 2 games in a row.
    Oh man, Cockatrice salt never fails to crack me up.


  4. #5204
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    There really is no escape. I thought this was a safe zone!
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by fangzie View Post
    The main reason I don't like empty with Ad Nauseam is that in the majority of matchups, flipping Empty off Ad Nauseam is just miserable, and when if happens, if it were any other piece of business, I'd be happier. And there's only a small number of matchups where I'm comfortable casting Empty off the Ad Nauseam.
    Not as bad as hitting Dark Petition as the second card off your Ad Nauseam, putting you to dead on board versus your opponent's Deathrite Shaman + Wirewood Symbiote after you'd already fought through their double Thoughtseize, double Therapy, Gaddock Teeg flurry of hate to have a shot at going off.

    Which is what happened to me earlier this evening when trying out one of the recent 5-0 lists on MTGO.

  6. #5206
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Dark Petition makes your Ad Nauseams way more consistent and they average out lower.
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  7. #5207

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    Dark Petition makes your Ad Nauseams way more consistent and they average out lower.
    I don't understand this statement, can you elaborate?

  8. #5208
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    I don't understand this statement, can you elaborate?
    We had this discussion a few times already. It's presumably easier to hit Dark Petition into a win (not involving LED) than in other setups; presumed you
    play Chrome Mox or Rain of Filth in addition to the generic mana choices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by guillemnicolau View Post
    Since the print of dark petition grim tutor hasn't seen play in legacy (not in competitive decks).
    Quote Originally Posted by THerzog41 View Post
    I believe Maverick is still the best deck in the format and definitely the most underrated deck in the format.
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  9. #5209
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Anyone willing to update the primer to include information such as this? Would be great to have a FAQ section.
    Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com

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  10. #5210

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
    We had this discussion a few times already. It's presumably easier to hit Dark Petition into a win (not involving LED) than in other setups; presumed you
    play Chrome Mox or Rain of Filth in addition to the generic mana choices.
    OK, But how does it average out lower?

  11. #5211
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    OK, But how does it average out lower?
    You are more likely to hit a winning line, assuming you only play one Pif, which usually is quite bad in AdN lines, since DP is a tutor that doesn't
    require LED but any mana. Plus, it is "cheaper" than revealing and playing Grim Tutor. Both, manawise (you need LED or more Rituals) and it costs more life obviously.

    I am just recalling what has been said and established as the general notions of good flipping AdNs.

    FAQ is a decent idea.
    WantToPonder
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    Quote Originally Posted by guillemnicolau View Post
    Since the print of dark petition grim tutor hasn't seen play in legacy (not in competitive decks).
    Quote Originally Posted by THerzog41 View Post
    I believe Maverick is still the best deck in the format and definitely the most underrated deck in the format.
    The Dragonstorm
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm

  12. #5212
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff View Post
    OK, But how does it average out lower?
    Ad Nauseams with double Petition are much more consistently in the 10-12 life range. When you don't have Petition in the deck, you get wins in the 7 life range more often, but you also go up to 17-18 way more often than you do with double Petition. As Robert mentioned, this is mostly due to the fact that non-Petition lists need to hit LED+Tutor(+initial mana) or Tendrils + initial mana, whereas the Petition lists have more winning combinations. The best Ad Nauseams came from my old 1 Ad Nauseam 1 Past in Flames 2 Tendrils 1 Mox 1 Rain lists (early Dig era if I remember correctly).

    Sorry I can't provide actual numbers on this, my data was lost with my old computer about a year ago. I had reasonably high sample sizes for manual simulations of Ad Nauseam in common scenarios, my main focus being the classic turn two DRit, LED, Infernal 17 life.
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  13. #5213
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Thirding an FAQ. I think that would do a lot to clarify some of these things, and I think people will appreciate having the info condensed.

    I've had a rockier road with Petition and Ad Nauseam. With that said, I only started to notice problems with it when I switched the second Petition for a second Past in Flames; I wasn't keeping a thorough account, but I started to notice I'd have lots of dead draws off of (even turn-1) Ad Nauseas—many more than I'd had with two Petitions. Ever since I cut my business slots back by one (kept the double-PiF), it started working better again. That might be just my (paltry) improvement as a player, and I haven't compared my original setup with my current business-light, double-PiF build.
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  14. #5214

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Hi everyone!!
    after a lot of testing, delusions and bad luck, finally I conquered my first serious top 8, in a tournament of 46 people last Sunday.

    6 rounds of swiss.

    1st round: JUND
    g1: a gitaxian probe sees a slow hand, made by tarmo, sylvan library, punishing fire, some lands, life from the loam. Cabal therapy on library. I have time to sculpt my hand and win the turn after he drops tarmogoyf via nauseam.
    g2: always a gitaxian, that sees an horrible chalice of the void. Luckly he didn't have 2 mana to cast it on turn 1, but I have no black mana for the therapy. Brainstorm finds a petal, chalice discarded and victory is easy, tutor chain.
    2-0, 1-0

    2nd round: UBW STONEBLADE
    g1: he drops a stoneforge, taking batterskull. I use my therapy to remove the batterskull, I see a force. Urgh, my hand is perfect, I need another discard......Drop sensei. He casts another stoneforge on his turn. Spin the top EOT, only a fetch. Draw the fetch, fetch immediately, spin the top, duress. Draw with sensei, win with pif.
    g2: he basically plays only lands and cantrips. On my 3rd turn he has only 2 lands, tapped....I understand he is not in a good situation. Cabal therapy naming force, nothing in hand, win with pif.
    4-0, 2-0


    3rd round: MIRACLE
    He is one of the best player in Europe, Angelo Cadei.
    g1: he starts. Island go. I kept a mediocre hand, I cast gitaxian probe and see fow, ponder, sensei, brainstorm, some lands. I cast an useless cabal therapy..... Brainstorm in response. I name fow, I saw counterbalance. Nice. His turn, he drops counterbalance, game ends quickly
    g2: grinding station plan. He counters a turn 1 carpet of flower. Unfortunally he knows perfectly how to play against this build, we spend a lot of turns doing lands/go, lands/cantrip/go. When I try to go all in, he has an hand like fow, surgical, fluster, fluster, counter, pyroblast. I have 2 discard card, 2 ritual, 2 gitaxian, 1 tendrils, 2 led on board to pay flusterstorm. He makes no error and I empty my hands. He does the same, but he has a snapcaster on the field the kill me quickly.
    4-2, 2-1

    4th round: BURN
    I personally HATE this matchup, and I don't find it absolutely easy. It's not the worst one, but it's not an easy win. One of our wincon, ad nauseam, is useless (and in my build also thoughtseize and mox), that's a big thing I think.
    g1: guide, swiftspear, bolt. I'm force to shot a mini-tendrils to gain 10 life and being alive some turns. Luckly I find a pif cantripping like a desperate and tendrils again for 8 (he fetched twice).
    g2: same a g1 basically. A gitaxian probe on my side sees an eidolon, discarded immediately by therapy. Decay the swiftspear, to lose less life. Then again, mini-tendrils and again pif for the win.
    6-2,3-1

    5th round: PAINTER
    g1: I start crying when he drops a mountain, I mulliganed to 5(2 rites, 1 cantrips, 2 lands). Luckly he puts a sensei on turn 2, I feel better, and my good mood transfer to the deck that gives me ad nauseam on turn 3. Nauseam is bad, I have to stop. He doesn't combo off next turn so I can win on the next.
    g2: thorn of ametist turn 1, I don't find decay or echoing, I'm stuck at 2 lands, gg.
    g3: win like a pro. I have an opening hand of land/land/nauseam/cabal ritual/cabal ritual/rain of filth. Turn 2 win easily.
    8-3, 4-1

    6th round: BUG
    ID

    I enter the top as 8th and I find my teammate on ELDRAZI..............
    g1: no chalice, no pressure, I win somehow (I don't remember exaclty, I thought it was a dream and didn't take notes).
    g2: well, THIS I remember...... turn 1: leyline of the void, chalice on 0, chalice on 1. No problem, we have echoing. Trinisphere. gg.
    g3: always leyline of the void on the field.....but my hand is good, I have a lot of mana and a led, need only business. He keeps and hand with only ONE land (mishra), seer and trinisphere are far menaces!! Victory is very very close I think, but I was too lucky this day, now it's time to pay debts to fucking Destiny. Cantrips don't show business, he draws a land every turn............... on turn 3 he makes a BIG mistake, deciding to cast seer over trinisphere. I have only mana, no big deal, if I draw a tutor I win. Nope. Useless land, pass, trinisphere, gg.

    conclusions:
    - I was lucky with the matchups: jund and painter are easy, stoneblade can be difficult post side but he screwed, burn is close (maybe 60-40 for us).
    - chrome mox was never topdecked, I found once after nauseam: good, that's its purpose.
    - 3 cabal/1 filth is the right combination for me. Filth enables fast combo, and help against graveyard hate. 4 cabal are redundant if you play filth and mox.
    - I had empty main in the past, over sensei. I switch them, improving my nauseam.
    - meta is still low-blue, second pif is not necessary. With 7 discards maindeck I can handle counter and hate (also creatures, with 4 therapy and 1 thoughtseize)

  15. #5215
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Hey guys. I've updated the OP with a few key things: up-to-date sample decklist, revised card explanation section, added FAQs section, and removed deprecated information. At this time my primary goal is to populate the FAQs section. To start with, I am going to answer what to name with Cabal Therapy and the Ad Nauseam - Dark Petition interaction discussed above. Please let me know if you have any additional questions you would like answered.

  16. #5216
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Thought this might exercise some of your brains.
    Miracles vs Storm. We are Miracles and the Storm player is going off. What do we do? And Why?

    https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...cles-vs-storm/

    Sib

  17. #5217
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    imo your best line of play here is to concede the game :V

  18. #5218
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    If the opponent has Past in Flames plus land, discard, ritual, Infernal or Tendrils, you can't win. If you Snare Cabal Ritual and they have Tendrils plus cantrip into any spell, you're also dead. Only way you can win is if they have to resolve Infernal Tutor or Petition, and Petition can't be combined with a discard spell (this combination is unlikely, otherwise they would've taken your Force already). Thus you let the CRit resolve and hope they need to resolve Infernal.

    Edit: Also like that they censored player names but it still shows whose turn seven it is.
    Last edited by Jonathan Alexander; 02-21-2017 at 11:27 AM.
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  19. #5219
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Also counting that its g1. I dont expect them to have 2 tendrills in the deck.

    Now if they have petition/nauseam + infernal and you snare you win because they have to play petition wich you force so they are 1 mana short of infernal into tendrills.

    If they have another discard + infernal you loose if you snare. But I expect him to have played the discard before. But this could be bait.

    If they have pif + tutor or tendrills you have to snare because they are so low on mana to double pif you.

    I think th safest way is to snare the cabal. If they would have another discard they would have not started with seize. If it was a therapy they would have played it first and also duress over seize because of the free lifeloss.

    I think I did my math right.

    Snaring the cabal means that you loose to discard + bussiness but you win in all other sceanrios I can think of.

  20. #5220
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Togores View Post
    Also counting that its g1. I dont expect them to have 2 tendrills in the deck.

    Now if they have petition/nauseam + infernal and you snare you win because they have to play petition wich you force so they are 1 mana short of infernal into tendrills.
    You also win here if you don't Snare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togores View Post
    If they have another discard + infernal you loose if you snare. But I expect him to have played the discard before. But this could be bait.
    Agree this is highly unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togores View Post
    If they have pif + tutor or tendrills you have to snare because they are so low on mana to double pif you.
    They are only one mana short of double Past in Flames if you Snare. Not too unlikely they have something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Togores View Post
    Snaring the cabal means that you loose to discard + bussiness but you win in all other sceanrios I can think of.
    You also lose to Past in Flames + any mana (including land) or cantrip/Inernal + Tendrils.
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