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Thread: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

  1. #3081

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Depends on your strategy for dealing with graveyard or Empty the Warrens hate, if you cut Lotus Petal MD then you cut Ad Nauseam SB and you've become a more binary Storm deck. Personally, I don't really agree with MD Dark Petition and Empty the Warrens over MD Burning Wish and Ad Nauseam, wishing for Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens gives the deck a lot of MD grinding power while being more flexible to SB out Burning Wish for other threat density. When you start getting Tormod's Crypted and can't rely on Threshold, those Dark Petitions start to get real clunky IMO.

    I think the deck needs more instead of less angles of attack.

  2. #3082
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    Depends on your strategy for dealing with graveyard or Empty the Warrens hate, if you cut Lotus Petal MD then you cut Ad Nauseam SB and you've become a more binary Storm deck. Personally, I don't really agree with MD Dark Petition and Empty the Warrens over MD Burning Wish and Ad Nauseam, wishing for Tendrils of Agony and Empty the Warrens gives the deck a lot of MD grinding power while being more flexible to SB out Burning Wish for other threat density. When you start getting Tormod's Crypted and can't rely on Threshold, those Dark Petitions start to get real clunky IMO.

    I think the deck needs more instead of less angles of attack.
    You are down to EtW, natural chains and PIF loops with Petition more or less anyways. Burning Wish is awkward as PIF -> Wish or Wish -> EtW requires double red mana and essentially only gives you an out to extraction effects. Thats why TNT was so a clunky and unsynergetic concept. The biggest plus of Petition is that it gives you all the cheap redundancy of Tutors TES has, but without splitting it over two colors or durdle forever with additional Preordains. Previous issues like Meddling Mage @ Infernal are history. The question atm is only, if the redundancy of access to ToA/PIF/EtW is undoubtfully better than running more storm cards in the first place (which are also clunky at times).
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  3. #3083

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I'm not sure a 5cc card is any less clunky than a 2cc card just becuase it requires red mana, I never had an issue with the red mana for Burning Wish because I didn't expect Burning Wish to be a T2 card like Infernal Tutor all of the time instead of just more threat density. The problem I have with Dark Petition is that as soon as you want Ad Nauseam you have to SB them out compared to Burning Wish.

  4. #3084
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    I'm not sure a 5cc card is any less clunky than a 2cc card just becuase it requires red mana, I never had an issue with the red mana for Burning Wish because I didn't expect Burning Wish to be a T2 card like Infernal Tutor all of the time instead of just more threat density. The problem I have with Dark Petition is that as soon as you want Ad Nauseam you have to SB them out compared to Burning Wish.
    The difference comes with being able to play cards in the face of Wasteland on demand like cantrips/discard IF you wish to do that which it out of question for TES like we have outlined and discussed in the respective thread and agreed that playing nothing at all is the right approach with TES. ANT has possibly more space to maneuver with the basic lands in the first 1/2/3 turns of the game compared to TES. I'm not convinced losing AN or swapping out the DPs for AN + hate postboard is a general problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  5. #3085

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Hi all, first time reporting here. I played at my LGS last night, made top 8 and split. Here is the list I ran with last night:

    Spells
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    2 Preordain
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Duress
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Infernal Tutor
    1 Dark Petition
    1 Past in Flames
    1 Ad Nauseam
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond

    Lands
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Gemstone Mine
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    Sideboard
    1 Krosan Grip
    4 Abrupt Decay
    3 Dread of Night
    2 Chain of Vapor
    1 Rebuild
    2 Carpet of Flowers
    2 Xantid Swarm

    Round 1 vs. MUD
    Game 1

    I lose the die roll and am on the play. I keep a good hand with tutor, LED, dark rit, ponder, brainstorm, and 2 fetch. He goes turn one tomb, monolith, trinisphere, pass. I play fetch pass. He plays city of traitors and chalice on 1 and I scoop, not much can be done, at least all he saw was a scalding tarn.

    I sideboard: +4 Abrupt Decay +2 Chain of Vapor +1 Rebuild +1 Krosan Grip -4 Duress -2 Gitaxian Probe -2 Cabal Therapy
    Game 2

    I keep a hand similar to the first, tutor, LED, ponder, brainstorm, chain, and 2 fetch. I fetch a sea and ponder, see nothing and shuffle, draw a petal and pass. Opponent goes tomb, monolith, trinisphere, pass. I play fetch and pass. He play city of traitors and chalice on 1 and I had a good laugh with the guy. I find a decay but no third land and I die to Ugin soon after.

    Final Thoughts: I think I should have fetched for an island instead of sea because of wasteland but other than that I think I kept solid hands given my information so I was content.

    0-1

    Round 2 (Bye)

    1-1

    Round 3 vs. Grinding Station
    Game 1

    I lose the die roll and keep a hand of ponder, tutor, LED, brainstorm, cabal rit, gemstone mine, delta. This type of hand is part of the reason I still like gemstone mine, if it was a bayou then I can't ponder turn 1 into brainstorm with a fetch up turn 2. It also ended up making threshold for cabal rit on turn 3. The game was simple. He just land passed and when I saw he was on storm with a probed killed him with an Ad Nauseam turn 3.

    No boarding
    Game 2

    Kept a hand with 2 tutor, LED, 2 ponder, and 2 lands. He land passes. I play ponder shuffle into a third tutor, really clunky hand now. He ponders I think but don't remember exactly. I tutored for another LED and pass hoping to Ad Nauseam next turn. He probes and therapys my tutor then makes 14 goblins. I spend the next 2 turns looking for the last tutor or PiF and then die.

    Game 3

    Simple game. I keep a hand with tutor, LED, dures, dark rit, preordain, sea, and a fetch. I play sea into duress and take his tutor. He draws thoughseize and takes my tutor. I preordain and gain another dark rit and pass. After he ponders and passes I top deck Ad Nauseam and win.

    Final Thoughts: Ad Nauseam was amazing and based on the meta, which was storm heavy that night, maybe a surgical in the board for an island would have been nice but by no means needed.

    2-1

    Round 4 vs. Maverick
    Game 1

    I lose the die roll and keep a hand of LED, petal, dark rit, ponder, brainstorm, 2 fetch. He plays fetch savannah play noble pass. I fetch sea and ponder into dark rit and tutor, draw the dark rit and pass. He plays land and drops thalia and passes. I draw tutor play land fetch sea and play my petal and LED then pass. He swings with thalia and plays knight then passes. I draw and play a fetch and pass. He swings for like 10 plays stoneforge and gets batterskull and passes. I end of turn brainstorm into LED, cabal rit, land and put the land and LED back so that I draw the LED on my turn. Then with a hand of LED, 2 dark rit, cabal rit, tutor, I go off through thalia with PiF.

    I sideboard: +3 Dread of Night +2 Abrupt Decay +2 Chain of Vapor -4 Duress -2 Gitaxian Probe -1 Cabal Therapy
    Game 2

    I keep a hand with dread, probe and therapy with I think a tutor and lands. He turn one land passes. I probe and see thalia revoker and knight. I then therapy the revoker and pass. He slams thalia down and passes. I play dread of night and pass. he play knight. I kill him that turn with PiF.

    Final Thoughts: Dread of Night did its job not much to say about this one.

    3-1

    Overall Thoughts: Didn't play against any force decks which made the night much easier, usually there are a lot of miracles and omnishow players but almost none this week. The dark petition is strictly worse than grim tutor in theory as well as in practice so I'll be changing that. Will be running a second PiF in that spot. The gemstone mine over the bayou is alright. I'll be sticking with it for now for a couple reasons, mostly availability. Also, like I explained in match 3 game 1. Finally, because the fact that only having 1 fetchable green source doesn't seem that awful. The match ups that you're afraid of wasteland you generally only need the green for one turn to drop something and kill them soon after. I will be playing in SCG DC next weekend and this will probably be what I bring but we'll see. Thanks for reading.

  6. #3086
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Seems like a solid night. I've dabbled with Gemstone mine as land number 16. I think it's not without merit but have not played it for a long time,

  7. #3087

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    With SCG DC coming up next week I was also debating whether I want to replace the gemstone mine with a badlands and run 3 sulfur elemental in the board instead of the dread of nights for miracles. Don't know if I should since I haven't run it before but wanted to get someone's opinion on it. Has anyone had a good experience with sulfur elementals in the board.

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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by TokugawaEdo View Post
    With SCG DC coming up next week I was also debating whether I want to replace the gemstone mine with a badlands and run 3 sulfur elemental in the board instead of the dread of nights for miracles. Don't know if I should since I haven't run it before but wanted to get someone's opinion on it. Has anyone had a good experience with sulfur elementals in the board.
    Well that's what I've done. My land setup has for a long time now been:

    4x delta
    4x tarn
    2x sea
    1x volc
    1x trop
    1x badlands
    1x swamp
    1x island

    That's mainly because I run 2x Past in Flames and 1x Empty in the main and as such I wanted the 2nd fetchable red land. In terms of fetches I chose to value my fetchlands all being able to fetch all my duals (tropical island included) over having 5 fetches instead of 4 that fetch the swamp out.

  9. #3089

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by TokugawaEdo View Post
    With SCG DC coming up next week I was also debating whether I want to replace the gemstone mine with a badlands and run 3 sulfur elemental in the board instead of the dread of nights for miracles. Don't know if I should since I haven't run it before but wanted to get someone's opinion on it. Has anyone had a good experience with sulfur elementals in the board.
    A, Gemstone mine is something you definitely do not want to be doing
    B, Sulfur elemental has nearly no connection to Miracles, if you plan to fight Mentor with it and Miracles Opp gives you the chance you both live in a very strange world and very likely not winning..., on the other hand it's semi-decent yet risky plan for G3 if there is some hatebears included in the mix, G2 or as A plan SB it makes no sense...

  10. #3090

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by nevilshute View Post
    Well that's what I've done. My land setup has for a long time now been:

    4x delta
    4x tarn
    2x sea
    1x volc
    1x trop
    1x badlands
    1x swamp
    1x island

    That's mainly because I run 2x Past in Flames and 1x Empty in the main and as such I wanted the 2nd fetchable red land. In terms of fetches I chose to value my fetchlands all being able to fetch all my duals (tropical island included) over having 5 fetches instead of 4 that fetch the swamp out.
    Do you bring the elementals in for every match up that dread would come in for + miracles or are there some other things that change with elemental compared to dread? Also Im guessing you don't have Ad Nauseam main board, would I side out Ad Nauseam if I'm bringing in elementals. Maybe elementals are better in the grinding station shell. And I agree with the land base, I really dislike not being able to fetch trop with mire.

  11. #3091

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    A, Gemstone mine is something you definitely do not want to be doing
    B, Sulfur elemental has nearly no connection to Miracles, if you plan to fight Mentor with it and Miracles Opp gives you the chance you both live in a very strange world and very likely not winning..., on the other hand it's semi-decent yet risky plan for G3 if there is some hatebears included in the mix, G2 or as A plan SB it makes no sense...
    Working on getting a bayou now to try that but I really haven't had much trouble with the gemstone mine.

  12. #3092
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by TokugawaEdo View Post
    Do you bring the elementals in for every match up that dread would come in for + miracles or are there some other things that change with elemental compared to dread? Also Im guessing you don't have Ad Nauseam main board, would I side out Ad Nauseam if I'm bringing in elementals. Maybe elementals are better in the grinding station shell. And I agree with the land base, I really dislike not being able to fetch trop with mire.
    Sorry if I was unclear, but I've actually never run the Sulfur Elementals so I can't speak from personal experience. 3CMC always seemed slightly suspect to me vs thalia decks as they are always packing wastes and often times ports. It's a creature, of course, so isn't hit by thalia ofc. Meh I don't know. I'd most likely never bring it in vs Miracles even if I were expecting Canonist/MM as I'd need to resolve 2x SE to do some work there. Bringing them in to fight mentors feels like the wrong way to approach this MU imo.

  13. #3093

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Just curious, whats the idea around 3 decays and 2 grips vs. 4 decays and 1 grip?

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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by TokugawaEdo View Post
    Just curious, whats the idea around 3 decays and 2 grips vs. 4 decays and 1 grip?
    Here's an exhaustive list of relevant things Abrupt Decay can't hit:
    Omniscience


    (Grip is also more efficient against Top than Decay)

  15. #3095
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Krosan Grip also gets around Meddling Mage on Abrupt Decay. Omniscience is irrelevant in my opinion, Top and equipment are more important; although equipment is much less relevant now that UW/x decks run actual hatebears instead of Stoneforge Mystics. It's also beneficial to be able to double up on Grips with Infernal Tutor. Grip can get countered by Counterbalance though (happened to me twice in the last 18 months).
    That being said, it doesn't really make a difference which one you actually end up running.
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  16. #3096

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by iamajellydonut View Post
    Here's an exhaustive list of relevant things Abrupt Decay can't hit:
    Omniscience


    (Grip is also more efficient against Top than Decay)
    Inkmoth nexus
    Lodestone Golem
    Relic of Progenitus and similar

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    Krosan Grip also gets around Meddling Mage on Abrupt Decay. Omniscience is irrelevant in my opinion, Top and equipment are more important; although equipment is much less relevant now that UW/x decks run actual hatebears instead of Stoneforge Mystics. It's also beneficial to be able to double up on Grips with Infernal Tutor. Grip can get countered by Counterbalance though (happened to me twice in the last 18 months).
    That being said, it doesn't really make a difference which one you actually end up running.
    This. also there is no MU for me where I want 4 decay specificaly, so the split has more upsides imo

  17. #3097
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Played today.
    Wanted to give it a twist from playing 1 ad 2 pif 1 toa. To 1 pif 2 toa.
    I just like ad nauseam vs roge decks. Better than just relating on graveyard.
    Also usualy second pif is sided out. With 2 toa you can go grinding station and also your nauseams get better.

    1 Ad Nauseam
    1 Past in flames
    2 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Infernal tutor

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Gitaxian probe
    2 Preordain


    3 Cabal therapy
    3 Duress

    1 Rain of filth
    4 Dark ritual
    4 Cabal ritual
    4 Lion's eye diamond
    4 Lotus petal

    4 Polluted delta
    4 Misty rainforest
    2 Underground sea
    1 Volcanic island
    1 Tropical island
    1 Bayou
    1 Island
    1 Swamp

    SIDEBOARD:

    4 Abrupt decay
    3 Xantid swarm
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Krosan grip
    2 Carpet of flowers
    2 Echoing truth

    Round 1 bye

    Round 2 tes
    G1 mull to 5 loose the turn I can pif him to dead
    G2 long game he ends up making 18 goblins and atacking.
    I can pif loop but im 1 storm short with 6 black mana. So I have to get with the tutor a led for blue having ponder, preordain and brainstorm. I played 1st ponder then preordain. But IM NOT SURE IF THAT WAS RIGHT AND MY ODS FINDING ANOTHER TUTOR OR THE 1 TOA WAS HIGHER IN THE OTHER WAY.

    G3 4c delver 2-1
    G1 tutor chain t2.
    G2 t1 nauseam with 2 floating and die to a bad nauseam and to bad cantrips the turn after. His delvers kill me.
    G3 he therapys surgicals my tutors but i have both toa. So i draw nauseam and find a toa.

    R4 zoo
    G1 t2 kill
    G2 he has tegg and mindbreat. Therapy the trap and let the tegg hit me. I draw enought gas to ritual into echoing the teg into toa for 10.

    3-1 3rd.
    Second tendrills seems fine. Will test if may be sb a discard or a pif is worth.

    Answer please on the cantrip thing.

  18. #3098

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Togores View Post

    Answer please on the cantrip thing.
    yes Preordain, Ponder, BS is the best sequencing... why did you play Ponder first?

  19. #3099
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Togores View Post
    G2 long game he ends up making 18 goblins and atacking.
    I can pif loop but im 1 storm short with 6 black mana. So I have to get with the tutor a led for blue having ponder, preordain and brainstorm. I played 1st ponder then preordain. But IM NOT SURE IF THAT WAS RIGHT AND MY ODS FINDING ANOTHER TUTOR OR THE 1 TOA WAS HIGHER IN THE OTHER WAY.

    Answer please on the cantrip thing.
    Assuming 3 Tutor 1 Tendrils left in your deck, casting Preordain is better when this is true:

    ((x-4-4)/(x-4))((x-4-5)/(x-5))-((x-4-1)/(x-1))((x-4-7)/(x-7)) < 0

    Which is when there are 24 or more cards in your deck.
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  20. #3100
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloshthedark View Post
    yes Preordain, Ponder, BS is the best sequencing... why did you play Ponder first?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander View Post
    Assuming 3 Tutor 1 Tendrils left in your deck, casting Preordain is better when this is true:

    ((x-4-4)/(x-4))((x-4-5)/(x-5))-((x-4-1)/(x-1))((x-4-7)/(x-7)) < 0

    Which is when there are 24 or more cards in your deck.
    Preordain, Ponder and then Brainstorm. Yeah.
    Once you free your mind and let the Storm go through you, you don't need formulas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by guillemnicolau View Post
    Since the print of dark petition grim tutor hasn't seen play in legacy (not in competitive decks).
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