[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Mastikor]

@Ronald

I run EtW main and no AdN. EtW is for the fast lines, otherwise the main is business-heavy. 7 discard should take care of your first two problems. 2 PiF are also good with that. And yes, EtW does seem like it would cover the third:) List for reference:

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Past in Flames
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

1 red source is enough. However if I'd run grixis, I'd add a badlands and probably another fetch (in the forest slots), or cut down to 14 lands. Cheers

[Silent Requiem]

Looking at that list really drives home how much you have to give up in order to have AdN in the main. There is just so much business.

[FlyingDelver]

Question guys concerning mulligans. How aggressively do you mulligan? I feel like this deck doesn't want to mulligan much, but could be mistaken.

Do you keep expensive hands like: Delta, Ponder, therapy, tendrils, DP, Ad nauseam, infernal tutor?

What about hands which have loads of rituals and mana but no tutor and no cantrip? Keep?

What about this hand for example: 2 fetches, therapy, LP, cabal ritual, LED (mulliganed to 6). Do you keep it? And if yes, do you therapy right away or wait?

[Dr_D]

Question guys concerning mulligans. How aggressively do you mulligan? I feel like this deck doesn't want to mulligan much, but could be mistaken.

Do you keep expensive hands like: Delta, Ponder, therapy, tendrils, DP, Ad nauseam, infernal tutor?

What about hands which have loads of rituals and mana but no tutor and no cantrip? Keep?

What about this hand for example: 2 fetches, therapy, LP, cabal ritual, LED (mulliganed to 6). Do you keep it? And if yes, do you therapy right away or wait?

I would not keep either of these hands. The first hand relies too much on ponder to find another land drop as well as miltiple rituals and if that ponder whiffs, you're just dead.

I don't keep hands that that only make a load of mana. These hands get more keepable as you play more business spells in your list, but I find hands like this to be a trap and I would rather mulligan to a hand that at least has the potential to have cantrips or actual business spells.

As a critical mass deck, obviously mulligans hurt, but it's not the end of the world. The deck still had the potential to just win off of 5 cards.

[FlyingDelver]

Alright thanks!

One more question: If I have a hand with a bunch of lands and say a ritual and then I ponder and I see Land, Ritual, Ponder do you keep them and draw them? Or do you shuffle here since you want a tutor ultimately?

[ScottW]

Alright thanks!

One more question: If I have a hand with a bunch of lands and say a ritual and then I ponder and I see Land, Ritual, Ponder do you keep them and draw them? Or do you shuffle here since you want a tutor ultimately?

In your last post, I'm not sure why anyone would cabal therapy t1 for no reason. In the above example, I would take the ponder and ritual if I had to and then shuffle (maybe just ponder if I could with a fetch but you don't say). IT does so little with a bunch of lands in your hand. Not really sure of the question. Seems like you need to build to something so Ponder is 4 new cards and I assume you have at least one fetch to shuffle the land.

[Izza]

I'm pondering about my SB for a wihle now.
I play Topical and Bayou main for access to Decay and the mighty Groundseal.
I know many of you have the Groundseal in your SB, even up to 3 copies. It turns off PiF and that was backbreaking several times. Personaly I can't say why, but I'm going the PiF route more often than the AdN route. Is it a bad habit?
In the current meta it is safer to not use the graveyard as often as I do. :)
What Groundseal does is good, it is a value card with snapcaster deathrite and reanimator. But it ALMOST feels like I have to side out PiF than.(what I will never do)
The only reasons for me to play green is 3-4 Decay(Still like it a bit more than Push, it hits more.), 1 Xantid Swarm, 2 Groundseal and a 1 off Ancient Grudge. Maybe I should try the grixis build.
What are your thoughts regarding Groundseal?

Edit:
Read down below

[Dr_D]

Ground seal does not turn off PiF. PiF doesn't target, you just flash back the rituals.

You should go for PiF over ad nauseam in a vacuum, as PiF is deterministic.

[CabalTherapy]

I'm pondering about my SB for a wihle now.
I play Topical and Bayou main for access to Decay and the mighty Groundseal.
I know many of you have the Groundseal in your SB, even up to 3 copies. It turns off PiF and that was backbreaking several times. Personaly I can't say why, but I'm going the PiF route more often than the AdN route. Is it a bad habit?
In the current meta it is safer to not use the graveyard as often as I do. :)
What Groundseal does is good, it is a value card with snapcaster deathrite and reanimator. But it ALMOST feels like I have to side out PiF than.(what I will never do)
The only reasons for me to play green is 3-4 Decay(Still like it a bit more than Push, it hits more.), 1 Xantid Swarm, 2 Groundseal and a 1 off Ancient Grudge. Maybe I should try the grixis build.
What are your thoughts regarding Groundseal?

Ground Seal does not stop Past in Flames.

This deck is essentially a Past in Flames-deck and Ad Nauseam is only the third best way to win (1. tutor chain, 2. pif-loop, 3. AdN/EtW).

[boneclub24]

Is it worth just cutting Ad Naseaum entirely from the 75?

[Ronald Deuce]

Is it worth just cutting Ad Naseaum entirely from the 75?

Ad Nauseam is a cruel mistress, and I can't say I'm a particular fan of the card. That said, it does a few things nothing else does in the deck, even if those things matter rarely: it draws us multiple cards (rather than replacing cards the way Brainstorm does), it gets around a ton of maindeck hate for 1/1s, and it gives us tricks at instant speed. Keep in mind that you don't have to discard to seven on your opponent's end step; strikes me that it goes well with Flusterstorm against opposing combos if we've got a lot of rituals. Even if I move it to the sideboard, which I don't think I want to do even if I bring Empty to the maindeck (anybody tried this lately?), the ability to do those things is crucial, even if usually in corner cases.

Seconding that this deck isn't great at making fast goblins. Typically we'll get between eight and twelve—eight is probably never enough, and even twelve falls short pretty often. I think it might be worth it to have that option at this juncture, but it's never been a play on which I've wanted to rely. Also, in my experience, if we need to tutor for either Empty or AdN on T1, we usually forgo any combo protection.

[Izza]

Thanks guys, for letting me know. I got a chinese one and can't read that.
I assumed that Groundseal didn't turn off PiF, BUT at a local event a judge told me, it's not working. He said all the spells in the grave can't be targeted.

Maybe I've should read PiF a little better and don't trust the judge blindly, now I feel rly stupid. :(

[FlyingDelver]

Seems really strange when a judge can't even explain this right. But I also had situatons like this. I wanted to know how Trinisphere affects delve and gitaxian mana. The judge said you can both delve and also pay gitaxian mana to fulfill trinisphere, which is just wrong. You can actually delve through trinisphere, as trinisphere just wants mana to be paid, and doesn't care how its paid. And delving cards counts as mana. However, gitaxian mana is a cost reduction effect, which you can't use to pay for trinisphere. So in that case, if I wanted to cast a gitaxian probe under trinisphere, i could either pay 2 generic and 1 blue mana, or 3 generic and 2 life. I even went to judgechat to ask for this and at first they said you can do it under trinsisphere, after a long discussion between those judges they finally came to the right answer though. Its sad sometimes since you kind want to rely on judges, but not like this.

On another note, went 3/1 at yesterdays FNM, played a standard Storm list, 1 Emtpy main and the rest is pretty standard:

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest
2 U-Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
1 Tropical
1 Island
1 Swamp

Noncreature
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty
1 Tendrils
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames

Sideboard
2 Fluster
2 Ground Seal
2 Fatal Push
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Hurkyls
1 Echoing

Beat RUG delver 2-1

Out: 2 Preordain, 1 Dark Petition
In: 2 Fluster, Cabal Therapy

Lost to Miracles 0-2

Out:2 Preordain, 1 Cabal Ritual, 1 DP, 1 Swamp, 1 LP
In: 2 Ground Seal, 2 Fluster, 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Echoing (Maybe Decay was better than Echoign? It was a list with Counterbalance and I wanted to have answers for possible Canonists in the SB or whatever)

Won against UB Reanimator 2-1

Out: 2 Preordain, 2 LP, 1 DP, 1 CR, 1 Swamp
In: 2 Fluster, 2 GS, 2 Chain, 1 Echoing

Won against DnT 2-1

Out: 3 Duress, 2 Preordain, 1 DP
In: 2 Dread, 2 Push, 1 Echoing, 1 Cabal Therapy

Wandering if my sideboarding was correct, what do you think?

[JackaBo]

I'm pondering about my SB for a wihle now.
I play Topical and Bayou main for access to Decay and the mighty Groundseal.
I know many of you have the Groundseal in your SB, even up to 3 copies. It turns off PiF and that was backbreaking several times. Personaly I can't say why, but I'm going the PiF route more often than the AdN route. Is it a bad habit?
In the current meta it is safer to not use the graveyard as often as I do.
What Groundseal does is good, it is a value card with snapcaster deathrite and reanimator. But it ALMOST feels like I have to side out PiF than.(what I will never do)
The only reasons for me to play green is 3-4 Decay(Still like it a bit more than Push, it hits more.), 1 Xantid Swarm, 2 Groundseal and a 1 off Ancient Grudge. Maybe I should try the grixis build.
What are your thoughts regarding Groundseal?

You need to read both those cards again

[Izza]

You need to read both those cards again

I have explained it already. :)

[ScottW]

Ground Seal does not stop Past in Flames.

This deck is essentially a Past in Flames-deck and Ad Nauseam is only the third best way to win (1. tutor chain, 2. pif-loop, 3. AdN/EtW).

I almost misread this to be most common not the best, in which case for me it would be PiF, Tutor, EtW/AdN. But of course, you're spot on. Btw, there is a small group of US players who use GT

Is it worth just cutting Ad Naseaum entirely from the 75?

Yes, it's liberating and more interesting.

Thanks guys, for letting me know. I got a chinese one and can't read that.
I assumed that Groundseal didn't turn off PiF, BUT at a local event a judge told me, it's not working. He said all the spells in the grave can't be targeted.

Maybe I've should read PiF a little better and don't trust the judge blindly, now I feel rly stupid. :(

It's easy to overvalue GS in a similar context. It's only helpful in a couple MUs, one of which it can be very good. Now you get to go back to your local and blow out everyone with your PiF and GS because they'll have no idea Just look for the word target.

[taconaut]

The judge may have been doing the, "answer your question about a card by reading its rules text back to you" (that is, the judge may know that PiF does not get stopped by Ground Seal, but doesn't want to give strategic advice/wants the player to know what their cards do, and it should become obvious when you read both cards). I have honestly been very surprised how many people are into Ground Seal; maybe I need to try it. Seems like going into green and paying two mana would be pretty clunky, but it's possible I'm just biased against the trop. I was very excited to bail on the green when we got treated to fewer counterbalances, but I may have been overeager.

Relatedly, I play some Hurkyll's despite it being narrower because it gets rid of Chalice + Resistor or some other variety of objects, whereas Echoing Truth is usually just a more expensive chain of vapor for me. I think all of them are defensible choices, though.

As for the Ad Nauseam versus Empty debate, I also think both of them are good - I know a lot of people here hate Ad Nauseam, but I find it just lets you win so many games you have no business winning, and I think the percentage on even a none-floating AdN is very high. I often feel way less confident about Empty (just seems like so many things can go wrong, and even like DRS + arbitrary guy can ruin it) but it's a great tool to have because it forces your opponent to respect the possibility of goblins, which makes their boarding plans worse. I play Naus in the main and two empties in the side, and generally find that it provides the speed and flexibility I'm looking for.

[CabalTherapy]

On another note, went 3/1 at yesterdays FNM, played a standard Storm list, 1 Emtpy main and the rest is pretty standard:

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest
2 U-Sea
1 Volcanic
1 Badlands
1 Tropical
1 Island
1 Swamp

Noncreature
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Dark Petition
1 Empty
1 Tendrils
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames

Sideboard
2 Fluster
2 Ground Seal
2 Fatal Push
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Hurkyls
1 Echoing

Beat RUG delver 2-1

Out: 2 Preordain, 1 Dark Petition
In: 2 Fluster, Cabal Therapy

You basically have to board out Ad Nauseam here. Additional Tendrils are great but having Pif, tutor chain, and EtW in the deck is enough.

Lost to Miracles 0-2

Out:2 Preordain, 1 Cabal Ritual, 1 DP, 1 Swamp, 1 LP
In: 2 Ground Seal, 2 Fluster, 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Echoing (Maybe Decay was better than Echoign? It was a list with Counterbalance and I wanted to have answers for possible Canonists in the SB or whatever)

Decay is always better.

Won against UB Reanimator 2-1

Out: 2 Preordain, 2 LP, 1 DP, 1 CR, 1 Swamp
In: 2 Fluster, 2 GS, 2 Chain, 1 Echoing

I am personally not a fan of too many bounce spells here but instead try to prevent their combo bringing in stuff like Crypt/Extirpate/Flusterstorm but in your case I'd try to keep Preordains and most likely
cut EtW. Even though I know the argument for keeping it; it's underperforming here.


Won against DnT 2-1

Out: 3 Duress, 2 Preordain, 1 DP
In: 2 Dread, 2 Push, 1 Echoing, 1 Cabal Therapy

Wandering if my sideboarding was correct, what do you think?

[fangzie]

I have honestly been very surprised how many people are into Ground Seal; maybe I need to try it. Seems like going into green and paying two mana would be pretty clunky, but it's possible I'm just biased against the trop. I was very excited to bail on the green when we got treated to fewer counterbalances

I think there's always been reasons to play green. I think the rise of neo-miracles has provided stronger reasons again. But that's not what I wanted to discuss here. I was perfectly happy for some time playing without ground seal, despite still running green (a light splash for a couple of decays and a swarm). Since trying it, I've been very happy with it, within the context of the small number of decks it gets bought in against. While it looks (and is) a little clunky, I've mostly been bringing it in against snapcaster decks, which tend to be a bit slower so you have the space to play a couple of clunkers. I know Togores has recommended it against Elves, I just haven't had the time to playtest this yet. I'd also like a chance to do some testing against Lands

[CashLikeStratton]

Hey Guys,

First time posting, but I wanted to share an article I wrote about the card choices and sideboarding with Caleb Scherer's List. Should help answer a lot of the questions regarding the theory (Especially around Chrome Mox), and be a good resource. Please read and comment.

https://www.flipsidegaming.com/blogs...-caleb-scherer


Thanks,
Alex