[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Ronald Deuce]

Where can i find a more detailed sideboarding guide? i've looked through the first post, but there isnt enough information from there.

Thanks!

Jonathan Alexander's working on one, I think. As a caveat, I think it's pretty likely that a bunch of very experienced Stormers will give you a bunch of varying answers if you ask them what to sideboard. My board's got a few flex spots, and I'm not an expert (hard as I try to be!), but here are some tips:

—Abrupt Decay is necessary for dealing with Miracles. Always run 4. It's good to some extent in other matchups, but how good it is depends on whom you ask. You might consider Krosan Grip as well.
—You're going to want at least 1 Empty the Warrens to knuckleball our opponents. Don't use it against decks like Jund (removal out the wazoo), Elves or Gobbos (they can race it easily), Lands (Tabernacle is 900 dollars for a reason), Batterskull.dec (eight life per turn is nearly impossible to race if you don't T1 the Empty), or other combo decks like Belcher or Storm (they'll kill faster; note that Belcher is better at Emptying for a boatload of goblins). Empty can get clunky in the maindeck, but it might be necessary in this environment. Good against Eldrazi, Delvers, and other decks that run light on mass removal.
—Chain of Vapor is a superb card for dealing with hatebears, especially Ethersworn Canonist, Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, and Eidolon of the Great Revel. Note that you can dump a handful of free artifacts against Canonist, then tap all your lands for mana, then play Chain on your own artifacts a number of times before bouncing Canonist. This nets you a ton of storm count and gets you closer to threshold for Cabal Ritual. Don't use Chain versus hatebears until you're about to combo off, though. It's also good against Marit Lage (AAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!) and Batterskull (bounce the Germ token, NOT the Batterskull). Also note that it hits any nonland permanent, not only creatures.
—You're going to want a couple of cards to answer a mob of disruptive white creatures, because that'll definitely knock you out if you're not prepared. Opinion's divided on Dread of Night, Disfigure, and Massacre. I'm going with Disfigure for the time being, but Massacre's also really useful in some other matchups (throwing a Dark Rit and a Massacre to kill ten Elves is totally worth it). Note that it does nothing against Gaddock Teeg. If you run one Dread of Night, run four. This is the least flexible of our anti-D&T cards.
—If you're on 14 lands in the maindeck, 'board a fifteenth. 16 is too many, and I flood on 15 pretty often. But you really need to hit land drops in a few matchups, and I need a green source for Decay.

There are numerous varied philosophies about how to fill out the sideboard, but I'm considering a singleton Pithing Needle (for Sensei's Top, Wasteland, Deathrite, Stoneforge, Jitte, Sneak Attack, and awful MUD nonsense). Running a second Tendrils and Empty (for grinding and Goes-Fast, respectively), a fourth Cabal Therapy (totally experimental), and 2x Hurkyl's Recall (Chalices, Thorns) for the time being.

Flusterstorm looks excellent, but I haven't tested it. Xantid Swarm doesn't feel like it's worth the spot in the 75, but I may be wrong. Dark Confidant is a superb creature, but I don't think it does a lot of good in this deck. It takes its time to get revved up, and it's a useless topdeck if you need to go places quickly. (As an aside, creatures often work this way in our deck. They may be strong when they get going, but they don't help us combo quickly or break opposing countermagic).

I'm still careening through the learning process re: what to cut and when. The only card I cut virtually every time is Preordain. I often board out some number of discards to make room for other disruption, but I think people are testing added discard for a few control-heavy matchups. I'm running both Rain of Filth and Chrome Mox in my maindeck, and when I need to floor it I sometimes take out Rain. Same goes for Dark Petition.

Take out Ad Nauseam against Burn every time. You get drained pretty quickly and the floor collapses under you if they can hip-shoot a Price of Progress and a Fireblast to take you from nine to zero.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Jonathan Alexander's working on one, I think. As a caveat, I think it's pretty likely that a bunch of very experienced Stormers will give you a bunch of varying answers if you ask them what to sideboard.

It will happen at some point and it will be quite extensive, but it's definitely not happening before the Grand Prix. I'm also likely to spend a good amount of time playing EMA limited during the time it is on Magic Online, which, if I remember correctly, is during the three weeks directly after the Grand Prix.

But yeah, everybody has their own list and we all do different things. Every now and then two of us come to similar conclusions or start working together, but we're usually all too stubborn and too invested to listen to anyone else.

[esperr]

15 LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
36 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
9 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hide / Seek
1 Karakas
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Painful Truths
2 Serenity
1 Silence
1 Tropical Island

So I saw this list on mtg top8, noting specifically the white and monastery mentor in the SB and was wondering what you all thought. Pretty much im bad at legacy, my lgs is only four people, theirs no way im going to outplay people at the GP so I need a way to get a "gotcha" edge(also im only going because I have my byes if im being honest). I like the idea of mentor, it plays around some SB hate that we tend to see naturally, they wont be expecting it, and it seems good against some of the trickier matchups(like eldrazi, or D and T). I dont lie the idea of not playing dark petition in the main, and the MB seems slower overall and unable to get consistent turn 2-3-4 kills like normal ANT does, so I feel as though you would lose the oops I win factor G1, but gain a much better long game. I also dont really understand the painful truths in the SB, I have been trying to get a hold of the user who 5-0d the league(his name is ItIsUnfair) but haven't been able to, I am however very interested in this idea for the GP but I wanted advice from the more experienced players.

[ScottW]

Played a GPT today and did so-so.
A couple reflections:
Don't overboard for Eldrazi.
Continue to use a note sheet for tracking storm. (I hate when my opponent starts trying to track my storm with my dice.)

Also, traded into a NM Grim Tutor today. Now time to alter...

[CabalTherapy]

15 LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
36 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
9 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hide / Seek
1 Karakas
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Painful Truths
2 Serenity
1 Silence
1 Tropical Island

So I saw this list on mtg top8, noting specifically the white and monastery mentor in the SB and was wondering what you all thought. Pretty much im bad at legacy, my lgs is only four people, theirs no way im going to outplay people at the GP so I need a way to get a "gotcha" edge(also im only going because I have my byes if im being honest). I like the idea of mentor, it plays around some SB hate that we tend to see naturally, they wont be expecting it, and it seems good against some of the trickier matchups(like eldrazi, or D and T). I dont lie the idea of not playing dark petition in the main, and the MB seems slower overall and unable to get consistent turn 2-3-4 kills like normal ANT does, so I feel as though you would lose the oops I win factor G1, but gain a much better long game. I also dont really understand the painful truths in the SB, I have been trying to get a hold of the user who 5-0d the league(his name is ItIsUnfair) but haven't been able to, I am however very interested in this idea for the GP but I wanted advice from the more experienced players.

First of all, that is a"normal ANT" list and this said "ItIsUnfair" user streams online and I'd like to say it carefully that he rather makes questionable plays/decisions, thus I wouldn't recommend his techs.
In all honesty, (obviously my opinion) Mentors are bad, Truths might be ok against Miracles, Hide and Seek pointless, Serenity (I guess against Eldrazi) = I'd rather play Grips, also this random Silence...

[Sloshthedark]

I have been trying to get a hold of the user who 5-0d the league(his name is ItIsUnfair) but haven't been able to, I am however very interested in this idea for the GP but I wanted advice from the more experienced players.

You can reach him on twitch, or in the FB group is you search Nicklas, btw. a lot of hrs on the list and games against Miracles in last few days so you can see how it plays out... I'd not take it as a educational material, a lot of weird stuff happens on both sides, but you'll get the idea... on the other hand in you consider yourself bad at legacy, I'd play something else than Storm, if you have no other option or do not want to, invest a lot of time to it (the deck) question everything you see, think what you'd do and why... 10 days is a lot of time and you'll win more playing well with a semibad list than plaing poorly with the best list around (which is hard t tell anyway)...

[Cave]

To this guy:

Where can i find a more detailed sideboarding guide? i've looked through the first post, but there isnt enough information from there.

Thanks!

Well, basically, what Ronald Deuce said above is correct.
Fact, the deck has a pretty awesome balance among its components (combo pieces, basic lands, discards, businness, stuff...) and breaking this balance is mostly bad.
So the less you alter this balance, the better.

This is a key concept.
When you sideboard, you don't want to turn your ANT deck into a pile of cards that has the goal to disrupt your opponent, and is occasionally able to storm up to ten.
You still want to be a semi-fast, semi-bursty combo deck that's able to both perform a quick combo and to disrupt your opponent with the right cards.
So you have to keep the balance.

Example: let's say you play against Death 'n Taxes and you pack 3 Dread of Night somewhere in your sideboard.
Well, arguably, Duress is a piece of disruption that's not really good in the matchup, and Dread of Night is a better card to harass Taxes with.
Therefore, the simplest board in/out that you can do is:
-3 Duress, +3 Dread of Night
Out three pieces of inefficient disruption, In three pieces of efficient disruption. And you keep the balance.

caveat: This is a simplified example. Boarding against any deck is way more complicate than that. Following the same example, I also like some (but not all) of my Abrupt Decays to come in against Taxes, but I don't like taking out Cabal Therapies because I can name Thalia and be happy with it. So I break the balance rule.
However, this concept is a good point to start with.

There's a really interesting (although a bit outdated) article about this, but I don't really know if i can link it.

[Togores]

I played an event with Mentor in the sb but they seemed lackluster. Got sworded away, tabernacled, bolted and terminused. Also they are quite slow. Because you dont really want to play them with a petal or ritual. You want to play them with 3 lands. I just didnt liked them. Like I didnt liked any of the good creatures plan I have tried with pyromancer or confidants.


Also if you dont play much legacy just slam belcher, its a fine deck and you need less experice like storm is a deck that really rewards playing it a lot and even the best players mess it up quite a lot of times.

[KZhang]

To this guy:


Well, basically, what Ronald Deuce said above is correct.
Fact, the deck has a pretty awesome balance among its components (combo pieces, basic lands, discards, businness, stuff...) and breaking this balance is mostly bad.
So the less you alter this balance, the better.

This is a key concept.
When you sideboard, you don't want to turn your ANT deck into a pile of cards that has the goal to disrupt your opponent, and is occasionally able to storm up to ten.
You still want to be a semi-fast, semi-bursty combo deck that's able to both perform a quick combo and to disrupt your opponent with the right cards.
So you have to keep the balance.

Example: let's say you play against Death 'n Taxes and you pack 3 Dread of Night somewhere in your sideboard.
Well, arguably, Duress is a piece of disruption that's not really good in the matchup, and Dread of Night is a better card to harass Taxes with.
Therefore, the simplest board in/out that you can do is:
-3 Duress, +3 Dread of Night
Out three pieces of inefficient disruption, In three pieces of efficient disruption. And you keep the balance.

caveat: This is a simplified example. Boarding against any deck is way more complicate than that. Following the same example, I also like some (but not all) of my Abrupt Decays to come in against Taxes, but I don't like taking out Cabal Therapies because I can name Thalia and be happy with it. So I break the balance rule.
However, this concept is a good point to start with.

There's a really interesting (although a bit outdated) article about this, but I don't really know if i can link it.

Thanks! This is really helpful. Still learning the basics of the deck. G1 is always relatively easy. Post board with hate gets hard

[ScottW]

What's the consensus on when to concede to Miracles in G1? Last GPT I played, I was stuck in the draw bracket after losing a long G1 and then winning G2 and not having time to win G3. It was annoying. I did this exactly in my first 2 rounds. Both G1 opponents had countertop assembled but no life pressure or Jace. Both times I had hands with potential if I could get them to flip the Top for an unnecessary spell.

[Jonathan Alexander]

What's the consensus on when to concede to Miracles in G1? Last GPT I played, I was stuck in the draw bracket after losing a long G1 and then winning G2 and not having time to win G3. It was annoying. I did this exactly in my first 2 rounds. Both G1 opponents had countertop assembled but no life pressure or Jace. Both times I had hands with potential if I could get them to flip the Top for an unnecessary spell.

I have never had long preboard games against Miracles. You are heavily favoured with their current setup leading to many short games. You also probably shouldn't count on Top ever leaving the battlefield. Getting the second Top is what I prioritise when I'm playing Miracles against Storm. You can only win through Counterbalance if you draw Tendrils. Tendrils does make it possible, but only if you have a lot of mana / free spells.

But seriously, most of the time you have a "long" game one, slow play is involved somewhere. There's really not much happening in these games and not many decisions should take long because they're easy on both sides.

[esperr]

So what kinds of hands should I keep in the blind? Just fast kills? Im talking in a GP meta, my local meta is literally just miracles and enchantress super warped to beat miracles and storm, so I have no idea what to keep in the dark in a "real" meta. Do you just always go for fast kills g1 and hope?

for instance, your on the play in the dark and have

fetch, fetch, preordain, LED, LED, dark rit, infernal tutor, do you just jam it and go for it?

[rlesko]

So what kinds of hands should I keep in the blind? Just fast kills? Im talking in a GP meta, my local meta is literally just miracles and enchantress super warped to beat miracles and storm, so I have no idea what to keep in the dark in a "real" meta. Do you just always go for fast kills g1 and hope?

for instance, your on the play in the dark and have

fetch, fetch, preordain, LED, LED, dark rit, infernal tutor, do you just jam it and go for it?

I'm not a storm aficionado but I'm pretty sure the common consensus is to jam it in this situation. There is exactly 1 card that can stop you (Force of Will). If you wait you open up the possibility of
a) losing to hateful permanents such as thalia, chalice of the void, TKS, etc.
b) opening up yourself to daze, spell pierce, probe / therapy, etc.

Basically, there isn't much "hope" needed. They probably don't have FoW, statistically speaking

[Jonathan Alexander]

So what kinds of hands should I keep in the blind? Just fast kills? Im talking in a GP meta, my local meta is literally just miracles and enchantress super warped to beat miracles and storm, so I have no idea what to keep in the dark in a "real" meta. Do you just always go for fast kills g1 and hope?

for instance, your on the play in the dark and have

fetch, fetch, preordain, LED, LED, dark rit, infernal tutor, do you just jam it and go for it?

You should go for the kill with that hand, yes. If you have Empty, you can even keep one LED. Would cast discard if I had that instead of Preordain though. Also, here's an article I wrote last year: Storm Hands

[Ronald Deuce]

So what kinds of hands should I keep in the blind? Just fast kills? Im talking in a GP meta, my local meta is literally just miracles and enchantress super warped to beat miracles and storm, so I have no idea what to keep in the dark in a "real" meta. Do you just always go for fast kills g1 and hope?

for instance, your on the play in the dark and have

fetch, fetch, preordain, LED, LED, dark rit, infernal tutor, do you just jam it and go for it?

I wrote a similar response to someone in the TES thread who seemed a tad gun-shy about jamming it blindly.

Think of it this way: if they have an answer, you might be screwed. If they don't, you win the game. So if you know (or are reasonably sure about) what your opponent is playing, you might want to reconsider barfing cards blindly, but if it's G1 and you don't know, you're giving them time to find an answer if you delay. If you pass the turn, best case, they'll open with Plains, and you'll just blast them, but worst case, they can either stop your combo with the card they've drawn or they can actually lock you out or T1 you themselves.

[EDIT: I just realized I wasn't really answering your question more broadly. Jonathan Alexander's article has a lot of great information. Essentially, in a blind matchup, I usually keep something with cantrips, lands, and at least one piece (preferably more) of your combo.]

[Jonathan Alexander]

If you pass the turn, best case, they'll open with Plains.

This is gold.

Reminds me of talking to Timo between rounds way back in Ghent. "My opponent opened on Forest, Llanowar Elves. That was easy."

[Zombie]

This is gold.

Reminds me of talking to Timo between rounds way back in Ghent. "My opponent opened on Forest, Llanowar Elves. That was easy."

Reminds me of some Vintage tournament report that went like: "I cast Llanowar Elves. He played Ancestral Recall, a slightly stronger card from the same set."

[esperr]

Specifically against miracles(as I end up playing against it a lot), ive found the matchup to be bad because were forced to use discard early to stop them from locking us out, rather then to strip them of there response to the kill. Is it normal to t1 discard over cantrips against them? Or do you just have to always asume they dont "have it" and go for a cantrip turn 1? Miracles seems to be the only deck Im really struggling against, I feel like griding station is way better against them but it feels much worse against other decks. Any general strategy against them would be welcome, the presence of the deck makes me want to play two tendrils main, or play the empty MB just to have a potential 3rd or fourth way to combo off in the same game.

[Sloshthedark]

What's the consensus on when to concede to Miracles in G1? Last GPT I played, I was stuck in the draw bracket after losing a long G1 and then winning G2 and not having time to win G3. It was annoying. I did this exactly in my first 2 rounds. Both G1 opponents had countertop assembled but no life pressure or Jace. Both times I had hands with potential if I could get them to flip the Top for an unnecessary spell.

almost never - there is too much to learn - version, type of player, skills, you can sometimes randomly still win the lategame and the time management of G2/G3 is in your hands

[CabalTherapy]

But seriously, most of the time you have a "long" game one, slow play is involved somewhere.

It's a funny coincidence because I had my longest game 1 against Miracles yesterday. I had a turn 2 Duress on the play: he reveals 2 Counterbalances, I took a BS.
He then went on to play a Balance and never drew a third land or a cantrip. I, on the other hand, had all my lands and SDT in play. We have been playing for 30 minutes until
his hand was cleared from a FoW and the top card was an Island. At this point I had 3 LP, 6 lands in play, IT and CT in hand, and PiF, cantrips and some rituals in the grave.
Eventually, I also won the second game but due to misplays by the Miracles palyer.