[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[taconaut]

Playing Chrome Mox in ANT is like running track with crutches or driving a monter truck blindfolded.
Theoretically speaking you could do it but...

Ouch...

I don't have as many credentials as CT, perhaps, but if you'd like another perspective, I commented on it above your post. The main thing I like about it is that it is an additional IMS for AdN, and I like the flexibility of being able to go for it with no mana floating if I need to be fast.

My understanding is that a lot of the Source stormers (CT included, though correct me if I'm wrong) prefer a grindier version of ANT, even potentially going up to multiple ToA, and Chrome Mox would make less sense in that version. It really is a preference call, and I suspect it both depends on your meta and isn't a huge percentage difference either way.

[CabalTherapy]

Ouch...

I don't have as many credentials as CT, perhaps, but if you'd like another perspective, I commented on it above your post. The main thing I like about it is that it is an additional IMS for AdN, and I like the flexibility of being able to go for it with no mana floating if I need to be fast.

My understanding is that a lot of the Source stormers (CT included, though correct me if I'm wrong) prefer a grindier version of ANT, even potentially going up to multiple ToA, and Chrome Mox would make less sense in that version. It really is a preference call, and I suspect it both depends on your meta and isn't a huge percentage difference either way.

Sorry if that was a bit too harsh but I meant it in a rather humorous way. I might missed the correct tone but the gist is that Chrome Mox is counterproductive in terms of this particular deck. It certainly works in TES but that's not only another deck but demands a different play style.

Even though our deck lists (and I mean ours in general meaning all the different versions of ANT) differ only in a couple of slots, the most central aspect for me remains how you are playing the deck in general. That does not relate if someone is "good" or "bad" but if they prefer to play a safer game or seek for fast wins (very broadly speaking). The best example here is pre-top-ban Sloshstorm, which looked like Jona's Grinding Station (similar business set up): The grinding station approach plays very carefully throughout the game and wants to assamble a perfect hand for a later turn (again, very broadly speaking), also holding back cantrips for example and so on; whereas Slosh plays his storm just like a "regular" version but profits from having cheaper and easier Pif-loops in the first turns and does not suffer from bad AdNauseam draws in the late run.

That said, I see Chrome Mox as a huge disadvantage in both play styles because of this deck's general set up: more lands than other storm decks, Cabal Ritual, more cantrips, sometimes 2 Pif main(also an advantage for fast kills), among other factors are not really in favour of going off quickly but rather focus on a controlled and longer game plan; at least they have the highest potential. In other terms and coming back to my monster truck simile, I see ANT as the monster truck that goes 30mph consistently but wrecks all the other cars and TES (or Chrome Mox/Rite of Flame-Storm) is a drag racer that might run headfirst into the wall sometimes.

[Togores]

Im also against CM its a great card if you play ADN md but only if you can primisse me I will draw it 0 times in all my life. Everytime I have played the card and draw it without a brainstorm I was about to commit suicide because its sooo bad.

[Ronald Deuce]

I just picked up the deck not too long ago. Finally got the last pieces I needed and ran my first event with it on Monday.

I'm running the Scherer version, including the Empty main. I've been interested in slotting in a Chrome Mox main but I haven't been sure where. Rain of Filth or the 2nd Preordain jump out as the easy cuts, but I'm not 100% sure. Or maybe Mox main is garbage.

Any input?

Hi, Boneclub24!

Seems like more experienced players have beaten me to it, but yeah, I don't think you really want Mox. I ran it for some time because I couldn't think of something I'd rather run as Card 60, but it was useful only rarely and was problematic most of the times I drew it. Hell, the main reason to run it—Ad Nauseam—rarely won or lost me games on account of Mox, and the corner-case scenarios (shed a nonland to get hellbent, bait out a counterspell) almost never happened.

I love Rain of Filth. I think it's awesome. I side it out for matchups where we need to go full-throttle, though, and those are usually matchups where I shed a Past in Flames (down to one in the 60). Keep in mind that it clashes with my favorite sideboard card, Chain of Vapor.

Hope that helps! Welcome aboard.

[taconaut]

Sorry if that was a bit too harsh but I meant it in a rather humorous way. I might missed the correct tone but the gist is that Chrome Mox is counterproductive in terms of this particular deck. It certainly works in TES but that's not only another deck but demands a different play style.

haha yeah no worries, I was mostly chuckling too, it sounded funny after I had just mentioned I liked it two posts earlier.

It also sounds like we (and the others) basically agree; I think I tend to be more on the faster-combo/ad nauseam preference side, so I just wanted to provide a contrasting opinion. I think the difference is relatively small overall, so those last 5 or so cards are largely a matter of preference.

[boneclub24]

That all makes sense. Do people like the Scherer sb plan for the straight Grixis version?

[Dr_D]

That all makes sense. Do people like the Scherer sb plan for the straight Grixis version?

If you're talking about the SB Chrome Moxen, I've tried it and I'm not a fan. I'd rather play more reactive sideboard cards than board in Chrome Mox to try to get under hate. I think the rest of his choices for SB cards are fine.

[beardstorm]

For the straight Grixis variants I currently run this sideboard to great success:

2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Night's Whisper
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Burning Wish
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

We have a lot of fair decks like Maverick, Grixis variants and UR Delver and it feels like this setup has just the right tools to battle everything.

[Ronald Deuce]

2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Night's Whisper
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Burning Wish
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

Seems like a cool setup, but—and I don't mean to be critical—seeing your list brought back a question I've been turning in my mind. I feel like a lot of lists run multiple singletons in the sideboard, and I've been debating whether it's better to make a more toolboxy sideboard or better to pack multiples of cards that answer specific things. What's everybody think? At the moment, I'm on 2x Decay, 2x Chain, 2x Surgical, 2x Hurkyl's Recall, 2x Fatal Push, 1x Crypt, 1x Empty, 1x Thoughtseize, 1x Tendrils, 1x Bayou.

Obviously, I'm on a different setup from Beardstorm's, but I was wondering whether consistency was ever an issue for people running a larger number of singletons.

A separate question that I might've asked earlier: what's the principal advantage of Flusterstorm over another discard? I get that it's good against fast combo, but I'm wondering whether there are other facets of the card I haven't taken into account.

[fangzie]

A separate question that I might've asked earlier: what's the principal advantage of Flusterstorm over another discard? I get that it's good against fast combo, but I'm wondering whether there are other facets of the card I haven't taken into account.

It can also be played reactively against surgical, discard and other counter spells. It's nice against hymn, although to be fair I'm rarely boarding it in against hymn decks.

[CabalTherapy]

but I was wondering whether consistency was ever an issue for people running a larger number of singletons.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=23075&iddeck=178599
(current list is: -1 Flusterstorm, -1 Crypt +1 Extirpate +1 Thoughtseize)

It's actually the other way around because this way one does not run the risk of having useless multiples in hand. Also some cards serve similar purposes,
thus being only 1offs on paper.

[Ronald Deuce]

It's actually the other way around because this way one does not run the risk of having useless multiples in hand. Also some cards serve similar purposes, thus being only 1offs on paper.

Thanks for getting back to me! That makes sense. How often is that a real problem, though? Ever since I cut back on Decays (and learned how to NOT sideboard the deck into a terrible pile), I've not found myself to be hitting too many 'board cards. One of the reasons I'm pursuing this is that I've been on a bit of a break from Storm; seems like everybody in my metagame knows I'm That Guy, so Storm hate's been pretty overwehelming. I'd been considering re-tooling my 'board for a while to see whether I could even things out. I'm not sure whether I'm just cold to certain matchups that a sideboard tweaking might solve.

[CabalTherapy]

Thanks for getting back to me! That makes sense. How often is that a real problem, though? Ever since I cut back on Decays (and learned how to NOT sideboard the deck into a terrible pile), I've not found myself to be hitting too many 'board cards. One of the reasons I'm pursuing this is that I've been on a bit of a break from Storm; seems like everybody in my metagame knows I'm That Guy, so Storm hate's been pretty overwehelming. I'd been considering re-tooling my 'board for a while to see whether I could even things out. I'm not sure whether I'm just cold to certain matchups that a sideboard tweaking might solve.

Well we storm players tend to not agree on our SBs but I am sure we can all agree that banning SDT initiated a major shift in how we approach boarding in a lot of MUs because the biggest part of the SB was dedictated primarily to Miracles (I had 9-12 cards for this MU). Of course, some cards were also used in other MUs: Decay, Grip, more Tops, more Tendrils, Xantids and so on are good in many other MUs.
I am convinced that understanding general concepts of this deck leads to a better feeling for the cards, possible hands, and so on... To answer you question directly: No, I think it's an improvement to the SB spreading out the cards to one offs and working with that. Keep in mind that we already playing the most consistent and powerful combo deck and in a perfect case you have just as many answers to your opponent's question as you need.

I can see a reason stepping back from storm when becoming "that guy who plays storm" in local tournaments since the guys can be quite hateful towards combo but it makes you stronger: "Oh, you only have a Flusterstorm and a FoW?" > Easy win. The guys at my locals are always adjusting their decks (even main) knowing that there will be storm, and I like pushing through more hate than the regular dose.

[beardstorm]

It's actually the other way around because this way one does not run the risk of having useless multiples in hand. Also some cards serve similar purposes, thus being only 1offs on paper.

I couldn't agree more with this. I especially like spreading out the bounce spells since they tend to have very different targets. While I usually take in the whole sweep against decks like Stax or Eldrazi, I might board only the Chain of Vapor against other decks like Turbo Depths or Maverick. (or even as a one-of against blue decks that might play Aethersworn Canonists)

[boneclub24]

For the straight Grixis variants I currently run this sideboard to great success:

2 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Night's Whisper
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Burning Wish
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

We have a lot of fair decks like Maverick, Grixis variants and UR Delver and it feels like this setup has just the right tools to battle everything.

The single Burning Wish is an interesting choice for sure.

[OlegtheSuper]

The single Burning Wish is an interesting choice for sure.

Yes but it takes 2 slots, you allways need second TOA. So in this case more effective to play 2 ground seal

[beardstorm]

As Oleg hinted at, the Burning Wish is primarily to battle Surgical Extractions (and other pin-point Tutor hate) post board. It has been great.

I really like to play with two basic Island, so skipping the green entirely suits me a bit better. I don't find the "two slots" requirement to be necessarily the case, as I prefer to have a Tendrils in the board anyway to battle UR Prowess and Burn (which are very prevalent in our LGS). Sure, you wouldn't play the Burning Wish without also having a Tendrils for it, but I see the Burning Wish more as a bonus to a sideboard where I would play the targets for it anyway.

[boneclub24]

Do you actually side Whisper in or is it strictly a Wish target? Also why not Painful Truths for the extra card, since, I assume it's for the grindy matchups?

[taconaut]

Also why not Painful Truths for the extra card?

I've often wondered about this myself, but never tried it - anyone ever give it a shot?

[FlyingDelver]

Going to play Storm again in tomorrows FNM, looking for advice on the SB for a pretty fair meta (lots of DnT, Delver variants, some Czech and in between a bit elves and reanimator)

I do have a maindeck without Empty but 2 PiF, as well as Dark Petition as singleton. Rest is standard. Is this mainboard good here? Or would you go for the Empty main?

Concerning the SB, this is what I would like to run:

2 Decay
2 Ground Seal
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fatal Push

Would you run a second copy of Tendrils in the SB for Czech and Delver? What about the other cards? Anything odd here?

Thanks in advance!