[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Morden]

I was thinking recently about fatal push. D&T is going down I think, after the explosion of conspiracy 2. Three cards in the sideboard for them (2 dread, 1 massacre) are indead too much, I think I will add a single FP to try.

[Jeff]

I've been trying the same thing. Against BUG Delver having the option to kill Deathrite to open PiF back up if you don't have infinite mana, or to kill Delver to keep Ad Nauseam alive as an option, or to kill Leovold so they don't draw a million cards, it seems very useful. It's a damn shame to have to include a removal spell, but I think that's where we are.

[CabalTherapy]

I've been trying the same thing. Against BUG Delver having the option to kill Deathrite to open PiF back up if you don't have infinite mana, or to kill Delver to keep Ad Nauseam alive as an option, or to kill Leovold so they don't draw a million cards, it seems very useful. It's a damn shame to have to include a removal spell, but I think that's where we are.

"Creature decks" or decks that win creatures that are played from hand and attack (Maro stlye) are as strong as they have been (although we see less vanilas making removals more relevant) but now Push punishes them even more for their suboptimal deck choice.

[Sibelius]

Thought this might exercise some of your brains.
Miracles vs Storm. We are Miracles and the Storm player is going off. What do we do? And Why?

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...cles-vs-storm/

Sib

So here is the Answer as I see it. Thanks for all the input on the forums, I read all of your ideas.

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...storm-answers/

Sib

[Nestalim]

Hey guys,

I've seen a lot of ANT list with 1 or 2 Tendrils in their sideboard, I was wondering, but I can't figure the reason to have more than one copy.

I identify some scenario, like discard - Drs on it, or tons of mana hand with Tutor + one tendrils into a second tendrils, but more reasons would be appreciated.

[Douif]

Hey guys,

I've seen a lot of ANT list with 1 or 2 Tendrils in their sideboard, I was wondering, but I can't figure the reason to have more than one copy.

I identify some scenario, like discard - Drs on it, or tons of mana hand with Tutor + one tendrils into a second tendrils, but more reasons would be appreciated.

Actually, the main reason of additional tendrils in the sideboard is to be able to grind your opponent, especially vs miracles where you play a grinding station game in g2/g3, or against decks like UR Delver/Burn, where you can play small tendrils in order to gain time against all their burn spells, and kill them with another tendrils some turns later.

[Sloshthedark]

1, storm 1, landdrop made, opponent has SE in hand, assuming you're dead if he untaps, what do you do? it's not as simple as it seems

2, if you decided to flashback PIF, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent?

EDIT - 3, if you cast Ad Nauseam, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent (if you decided not to wait)?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Get LED, float B, cast Past in Flames. Opponent casts Surgical on anything but Infernal, they're dead. If they take Infernal, I'm content with 2 Probe, 2 Ponder, BBBBBB and U. If they don't Surgical, cast LED. Now they should see they have to Surgical Infernal. Proceed with cantrips, cast Ad Nauseam if that's what you hit.

[Togores]

If you cast led they are gonna take your pif. So you just have now to cast nauseam or pif. If you wanna cast pif you have to search for a petal because they will think you got a led and surgical them in response to the pif.

Also seeing the stormcount would help.

[Jeff]

Get LED, float B, cast Past in Flames. Opponent casts Surgical on anything but Infernal, they're dead. If they take Infernal, I'm content with 2 Probe, 2 Ponder, BBBBBB and U. If they don't Surgical, cast LED. Now they should see they have to Surgical Infernal. Proceed with cantrips, cast Ad Nauseam if that's what you hit.

If I'm the opponent I'm surgicaling Past in Flames with LED on the stack. That doesn't work. You can flash back the Past in Flames without casting the LED of course, but then you've just got black mana when it comes time to do stuff, so those two probes better do work.

[Jeff]

If you cast led they are gonna take your pif. So you just have now to cast nauseam or pif. If you wanna cast pif you have to search for a petal because they will think you got a led and surgical them in response to the pif.

Also seeing the stormcount would help.

It says Stormcount 1 in the post (not the image)

[Togores]

It says Stormcount 1 in the post (not the image)

Sorry, missed it ^^

[Jonathan Alexander]

If I'm the opponent I'm surgicaling Past in Flames with LED on the stack. That doesn't work. You can flash back the Past in Flames without casting the LED of course, but then you've just got black mana when it comes time to do stuff, so those two probes better do work.

Scratch everything I said, thought we had one more mana hahaha

[Jeff]

EDIT - 3, if you cast Ad Nauseam, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent (if you decided not to wait)?

Math below is going to be based on what the opponent thinks we might have, not based on what we actually have. So while I know we only have 3 petals and no Dark Petition, the opponent doesn't.

Options

Lotus Petal - If you hit lotus petal, they absolutely have to hit both remaining LEDs to win
LED - If you hit LED, they have to hit two Lotus Petals (one for black and one for red) and multiple rituals including 1 dark, or all 3 lotus petals and at least one cabal ritual.
Past in Flames - They have to hit 4 of the remaining 14 Lotus Petal, LED, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Probe, and also hit the Tendrils or Dark Petition or Infernal+LED.
Infernal Tutor - Basically the same as Past in Flames except if they hit a bunch of mana and which on the tendrils or petition, they can flash back PiF and make more mana and maybe flash back a draw spell or two if they have blue mana from the 3rd petal or LED.

Given those options, I think I'd probably hit the Petals, but I think LED is a reasonable option as well. They both put our hero on a very limited and specific number of draws to win.

[Jonathan Alexander]

So Ad Nauseam is not an option. Even without the opponent having Surgical (and you not having Past in Flames in graveyard obv) this would be highly unlikely to lead to victory.

The only real proactive options we have are Petal and Past in Flames. Either way you end up in the same situation (Past in Flames on stack, one mana, opponent gets to Surgical). If you get Past in Flames, your deck is gonna be better (Petal over a dead Past in Flames is big). Notably, you're also in a much better position if you don't get to win this turn. The big upside Petal has is that you get to be reactive with your mana; Past in Flames forces you to decide what mana to float before casting Probes / opponent casting Surgical. Petal also wins you the game if your opponent randomly decides to Surgical LED in response to Past in Flames, but such things are hard to predict without playing the match yourself.

If you get Petal, it's likely your opponent Surgicals Infernal in response to your first non-initial mana source (Ritual, LED). They can let your Probes and a Ponder resolve with no risk.

If you get Past in Flames and float B, your opponent casts Surgical on Infernal when you cast a ritual and you have two Probes to hit discard or Tendrils (seven cards, Ad Nauseam is another half a card you can hit). Potentially you get to cast Ponders to dig for those if you hit Petal / LED. LED also opens up Empty, which is deece.

If you get Past in Flames and float U, it's very hard to predict when your opponent is going to fire off Surgical, they're likely aiming it at Ponder though. You would then have to hit Petal / LED (four cards) with your Probes, and you need a way to get rid of your first card if your second Probe finds Petal.

I like Past in Flames floating B, but my actual line would have been Infernal for Thoughtseize without cracking LED, unfortunately you didn't give us that option.

[Ronald Deuce]

1, storm 1, landdrop made, opponent has SE in hand, assuming you're dead if he untaps, what do you do? it's not as simple as it seems

2, if you decided to flashback PIF, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent?

EDIT - 3, if you cast Ad Nauseam, what do you SE if you'd be the opponent (if you decided not to wait)?

There's a chance I'll totally whiff on this, but here's what I was thinking:

1) Working under the assumption that we're dead regardless of what we could force the opponent to disard, I would tutor for Past in Flames and pray to hit off a Ponder/the Probes. Tutoring mana leaves them to extract PiF, leaving us dead in the water. Ad Nauseam feels too risky with Tutor, Dark Rit, and double-LED in our graveyard; even if they extract the wrong card, we've still got much lower odds of hitting what we need than I'd be comfortable with. If we get PiF, they have to Surgical it before we cast the one in our hand to stop us from cantripping, and I don't think it's likely that they'd know to hit it. Still super risky; we'd have one blue mana to find anything we could use to keep playing, and probably we wouldn't be able to Ponder for more stuff.

If they've got a weak-ish hand, though, it might be best to tutor a Duress and knock over their combo.

2) Best play would be to hit the Past in Flames with Tutor on the stack, though I don't think I'd have thought of that in game. If the Past in Flames resolved, I'd aim for Ponder.

3) Lotus Petal. That forces the AdN to hit both remaining LEDs or the player's dead.

[Jeff]

I like Past in Flames floating B, but my actual line would have been Infernal for Thoughtseize without cracking LED, unfortunately you didn't give us that option.

If you cast Past in Flames floating B, and your opponent surgicals Dark Ritual in response, is there any way to win other than Probe Probe into LED or multiple Petals?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Probe into Petal also wins because you can CRit -> Infernal -> LED -> Empty. Probe Probe into black spell + Petal also works. Basically puts you in the same position as Past in Flames floating U.

Willing to believe getting Petal is the best play most of the time, but not willing to say I want to go for it without having played the game myself. I make these 50/50 or mindgame calls intuitively.

[Jeff]

Probe into Petal also wins because you can CRit -> Infernal -> LED -> Empty. Probe Probe into black spell + Petal also works. Basically puts you in the same position as Past in Flames floating U.

Willing to believe getting Petal is the best play most of the time, but not willing to say I want to go for it without having played the game myself. I make these 50/50 or mindgame calls intuitively.

As we're playing against storm and we've been instructed to believe that we're dead next turn, I was operating under the impression that Empty this turn wasn't a win.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Then you can cast Ponders for discard/Tendrils instead of Empty, which is still somewhat alright.

In all seriousness, all our options are really bad here, so "it's not great" isn't exactly a reason to dismiss any of them.