You can ask him directly about that design decision as Jamie is member of TheSourceOriginally Posted by nevilshute
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That list is definitely alright to play. I was thinking that the other player was relying on past in flames alone. Personally I prefer one tendrils main and no etw, but I do not deny that lists using etw or burning wishe are effective.
I've gone 11-4 at GP DC, 10-3-1 at GP Denver, 8-2 at the Somerset SCG Open, won 2 IQ's, won 1 local Legacy event (~15 people), lost in the finals of 1 local Legacy event (~15 people), and won 1 GPT with ANT running no Ad Nauseams. That is my total sanctioned experience with Ad Nauseam-less ANT. I haven't had any impressive huge finishes, but I've consistently won a pretty high percentage of my matches with the deck. I'm not making any judgments for you as to whether this version is better or worse than normal ANT, but hopefully it shows you that the deck can certainly operate respectively well.
On the topic of Jamie's opinion on Ad Nauseam vs. EtW, he already talked about it in his BoM report here on The Source:
In regards to Legacy:
My original comment was towards what I thought was someone who wasn't able to find success with Ad Nauseum. I do not think one version is better than another, but I play with Ad Nauseum and one tendrils because I think the deck performs in a predictable way. Any thoughts I have on other versions are normally coming from my perspective of playing ANT against other versions as opposed to other decks vrs other versions of storm. Seeing these results and the reasoning behind it makes me want to look into it more. It is an interesting perspective on the meta game.
Hello everybody!
This night i was alone at home and make some play test on cocka and wanted to share my impresions:
This was the list:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Burning Wish
1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Virtue's Ruin
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
Dragon stompy: 0-2
The guy smashed me easly with very good hands both games. I thought probably wrongly that EtW would hurt him i took this side plan:
Op. 7 g1: u sea, swamp, it, wish, ToA, ponder, dark ritual. kp
Op. 7 g2: u sea, duress, etw, wish, ponder, bstorm, dark ritual. bad kp.
-1 ToA -1 Probe + 1 Therapy +1 Warrens. Decay seemed very hard to cast with at least 7 moon effects in the other side.
BUG: 2-0
Op. 7 g1: no land
Mull 6: probe, ponder, d ritual, c ritual, fetch, island. kp
Op 7 g2: therapy x 2, duress, probe, badland, fetch. Destroyed his hand.
side plan: -1 probe - 1 duress -1 dont remember (what do you suggest, maybe wish) + 3 xantid
Tin Fins: 2-1
g1 Mull 5: probe, c ritual, u sea, swamp, fetch
Op 7 g2: LED x 2, nausea, petal, probe, c ritual, u sea. kp.
Sode plan: -1 duress -1 therapy + 2 surgical.
POX?
2-0
Op 7 g1: Wish, Bstorm, duress, fetch, probe x 2, volcanic. kp
Op 7 g2: d ritual, duress, bstorm, petal, fetch x 2, island. kp
Side plan (wasnt pretty convinced. Didnt want to side at all): -1 probe - 1 duress +2 surgical.
Anycoment is welcomed!!
GC.
When I spoke to Jamie this weekend he was even considering cutting Empty entirely from the 75, because every deck has TNN hate that wipes our goblins.. It is risky to go for 12 goblins like we used to, when you know that ANT can have a reasonable lategame. I think he almost always plays Ad Nauseam main, also in the 6-1 the day before BoM, but at that time it worked to play Empty main.
Yeah, man, try it out if you're curious. I'm not saying I'll never run AN in the main again, just that I've never felt like it was an "I win" card in ANT. Watching BBD play storm on camera this weekend didn't do anything to change my mind, either, and he even tweeted about whiffing on Ad Naus in an off-camera match.
Ad Nauseam is still good, it's just that we have all these other tools that provide consistency AND stability that it's worth being open-minded.
I played ANT against Team America and the new versions of Death and Taxes, and I just felt like it was meaningless to play. I felt ANT needed restructured, and what I ended up with was what you guys have been talking about on here with a few other cards. I cut preordain and went down to two gitaxian probes for three Lim-Dul's vaults and four Force of wills. I also put AD Nauseum in the s/b and put in Empty the Warrens. I also cut three duress for three thoughtseize. The discard package is three cabal therapy and three thoughtseize.
The testing results are undefeated against new Maverick, Cloudpost with Bonfires, and Zoo. I haven't had the opportunity to test it against blue yet, but that is what I will be working on today.
I should probably include the s/b too.
/ Sideboard
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Dark Confidant
SB: 1 Ad Nauseam
Probably going to pilot ANT in Nashville next weekend. You guys think a 16 can trip version will be okay with the new Spirit of the Labyrinth being a thing that will certainly be tried?
I was thinking:
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Perordain
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Infernal Tutor
1 PiF
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils
3 Durress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Gemstone Mine
SB:
1 Karakas
3 Dread of Night
1 Tendrils
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Thoughtseize
A tweak on the list that did well in Orlando. Not sure though if I wanted Dread of Night or Massacre. Massacre can stop an opposing SFM or TNN or something else, but DoN can drop on T1 and just keep everything off of the board.
^Why are you running 2nd Tendrils in the board?
The force of wills were good in some games, but it is not consistent enough. After that I tried a burning wish package, and that wasn't doing it either. The really tough matches are MUD and Team America. Two Lim-Dul's Vaults have been really good though. I have been trying to work on a s/b that can deal with the metagame after Spirit of the Labarynth is legal. So far this is what I have come up with:
/ Sideboard
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Tropical Island
SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 3 Ignorant Bliss
Biggest argument against Ad Nauseam in ANT in my mind is that you have to use Duress over Thoughtseize, having outs vs Goblins just means we need a Cabal Therapy in our graveyard while allowing a Meddling Mage or Vendilion Clique to resolve is just GG. Plus it makes Deathrite Shaman less annoying, and I'm sure we're going to be seeing loads of Thalia, Guardian of Thraiban and Spirit of the Labyrith here shortly.
If Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens are pretty equivalent as the second win condition, I'd rather play the one that lets me play with better disruption.
It gives you the option of boarding it in and firing off a weaker tendrils against like a tempo deck and buy more time. I think it should probably be an empty the warrens though
There are some pretty huge differences between AN and Empty… Like AN is great against Miracles where Empty is terrible; Empty is great against RUG Delver where AN is terrible. There are lots of differences besides the type of disruption you can run. That being said, I do agree that Empty lets you run better cards in your deck. I run comfortably play 2 Grim Tutors which helps the consistency of both PiF and Empty.
Been doing a lot of testing with Ant this past week so i don't feel incompetent with it. List for reference:
4 polluted delta
4 scalding tarn
1 bloodstained mire
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
1 thoughtseize
1 grim tutor
4 infernal tutor
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxian probe
2 preordain
1 tendrils of agony
1 past in flames
1 ad nauseum
SB:
3 dark confidant
1 massacre
2 pyroclasm
1 empty the warrens
2 chain of vapor
3 xantid swarm
3 abrupt decay
Was beating up on Thalia decks despite them resolving the card, the sideboard is ok against them if they aren't dedicated against us. Ant's ability to win through Thalia is nice.
A friend on RUG was at first destroying me in postboard games after bringing in 2 graf cage, 2 fluster, x pyroblasts, 2 rough//tumble. I was running a lot of my discard into his soft counters though and the matchup improved after I slowed down. I could have also punished his boarding out of all the bolts by bringing in swarms, which I'd certainly try in an event after seeing those many cards postboard and still all the creatures in game two. Empty was useless.
Which leads me to my main point: I don't think Empty is a good postboard plan right now: There are a only a few decks currently that it is traditionally good against and a lot of those decks (along with the rest of the meta) are trying to answer elves/death and taxes/true name nemesis and are running someway to invalidate the tokens.
So that would free up a sideboard slot of another engine/finisher type card. I'm really thinking about doubling up on either tendrils or past in flames since they are pretty valuable cards to draw in certain matchups. Leaning towards the past in flames with all the delver decks around, but if I suspect more controlling decks, the tendrils is fine as well.
Thoughts?
Matt Bevenour in real life
Matt, EtW isn't good as a post-SB option but very good pre-SB in spot of the Ad Nauseam. The gameplan of Grinding Station aka several Tendrils and/or PIF wasn't any good in my lastest testing. MB EtW as SB Telemin is my current choice.
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There are too many discard decks running around me that I'm willing to drop the ad naus. Telemin is interesting.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Empty seems kind of weak in this deck? It seems like TES is more naturally better suited to take advantage of Empty since they are a turn faster than us. It may just be my bias. I don't like the card in general, seems totally beatable even without spash hate. I've beaten Belcher's T1 Empty by just playing creatures and blocking them into oblivion until I was able to stabilize.
EDIT: The point I was trying to make is that this deck seems too slow to take advantage of Empty. The deck operates on being able to sculpt resilient hands, which comes at the cost of speed more often than not. It seems like Empty is pretty bad against many decks past Turn 3.
In regards to Legacy:
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