I would definitely add RUG (Canadian Threshold) and Lands to the list. Those decks can almost always be relevant in the meta, even if played less. Infect seems also like a pretty decent deck to cover. Finally, something like the Rock/Aggro Loam (non-blue, non-combo decks) would be nice.
Another idea is to lump them into certain hate strategies such as hate bears (Thalia, canonist, Gaddock teeg decks), hate artifacts (Trinisphere, chalice, thorn of amethyst) and non-counterbalance control (e.g. grixis control, blade control, or other counter heavy decks). This would just be a general guide for what to board when you expect certain cards against you, rather than what a specific matchup could do. Either way, I'm looking forward to it :).
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I've been a fan of Empty for a long time, but for a while there it was just not necessary. Right now, with decks like Grixis Delver (or any other delver deck), DnT (often with main deck canonist if they know what they are doing), Infect and Eldrazi it's really nice to have. It is an awkward card, but it gives you an out against a lot of decks. I'd love for it to be the second Past in Flames, but I'm with Togores on this right now, you probably should have one in the main.
EDIT:
Tweaked my sideboard atm, looking at MTGTOP8 metagame breakdown, this is probably what I'll sleeve up for Prague.
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Echoing Truth
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Dread of Night
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
I believe this should give me a game plan against almost every deck that has a decent % chance of showing up. I would like to find another slot for a Hurkyl and or a Dread of Night extra. So far I've been looking at the Xantid Swarms, but they've served me well against Show and Tell and Reanimator in the past. Flusterstorms seems good against most combo decks, but I've considered cutting them as well. I don't think I'll go to a tournament without Echoing Truth or Chain, they've won me to many games against silly cards like Leylines that people tend to bring in. Echoing Truth is quite similar to Hurkyl's, but I like it against more matchups than just Eldrazi, but I'll probably bring it in anyway. I'm afraid I'll be a bit weaker against Miracles than before, but other than that I think I have a lot of bases covered. Anything you guys would change? Am I spreading myself to thin and hedging against to many matchups maybe?
@Stoyrm on Twitter, i usually tweet about Legacy and Magic :)
That would be superb. Not sure whether I still count as a new player, but I'd love to see a comprehensive analysis. The one in the primer is good, but it feels a bit "long in the tooth" in some ways, and it doesn't go into a ton of detail about the best ways to use the cards (e.g., when to hold them, when to fire, what to avoid, what specific cards might shut them down).
If you're interested in tackling misconceptions or if you're curious what newish players are doing (right or wrong) in certain matchups, I'd be happy to give you any input I've got. My understanding of which cards to use and why has changed quite a bit in some ways as I've gotten a feel for the deck.
Might be good to mention which cards (if any) depend on the business setup we're running (e.g., it's difficult to board in multiple Empties, Chewers, or Massacres if we're running Ad Nauseam; Rain of Filth and Chain of Vapor don't go together all that great) and in what ways they depend. Also, which slots are "flex spots" and which ones are rock-solid stalwarts.
Just a thought, but it might be good to address common dilemmas people encounter in the field and how sideboarding can remedy such situations.
It might be worth it to list which cards can really zero us in each matchup (e.g., Gaddock and Canonist in Mav; Fluster, Force, and Countertop in Miracles; Eidolon in Burn) to give newer players or people from smaller metagame environments a heads-up.
I guess The Menace is part of the DTB list, so that's covered. Not sure whether it's worth it to address other "stompy" matchups or MUD because I gather that The Menace is more successful than the others. I'm interested in reading about the best way to handle a deck like ≥8-Rack because it's not that stellar generally, but its volume of discard and the potential for numerous Extractions postboard made it tough for me last time I played against it. I second the motion for Stoneblade; counterspells for days (Daze?)...
I think UseLess is onto something: a lot of matchups feel like they fall into categories that are each addressed by a set of cards in the sideboard, so arranging the decks by how they beat us or by how we beat them seems logical.
Thanks for your suggestions, I'll try to keep them in mind!
Yes, I might do that. I'm not entirely sure how space out and structure things though, because there is a lot of information to be conveyed.
I'm not sure if that's what I want to do, but thanks for the offer, will keep in mind.
I actually think determining your business setup for a matchup should always be the first order of business, so that's definitely happening.
I think Eldrazi covers all Stompy decks because it's pretty much strictly better than any other version. 8-Rack seems a bit too far out there, but Stoneblade seems to be making a comeback, so I'll likely include it, at least long-term.
Don't mind me, i'm just writing about Pauper these days: theweeklywars.wordpress.com
deckstats.net archive
Scenario time:
You're playing this list:
4x
led
petal
dark rit
inf tutor
probe
brainstorm
ponder
3x
cab rit
cab therapy
2x
duress
past in flames
1x
tendrils
empty
ad nauseam
top
thoughtseize
rain of filth
chrome mox
lands:
4x delta
4x misty
2x sea
1x volc
1x trop
1x bayou
1x island
1x swamp
SB:
4x decay
1x krosan grip
2x tendrils
1x empty
1x top
2x fluster
1x chain
1x echoing truth
2x carpet of flowers
It's round three of a league on mtgo. You're on the play against an unknown opponent. You keep this hand: Bayou, Volc, Delta, Brainstorm, Past in Flames, Tutor, Petal. Your opponent mulligans to 6. You decide to lead on volcanic go, keeping your options open to brainstorm and at least shuffle away one card if your opponent has a play that necessitates this, at the cost of being open to wasteland. Your opponent draws for the turn, plays and island and passes. You draw a misty rainforest for the turn, play out your delta and pass back. Opponent draws for their turn 2, plays a polluted delta and passes back to you. You decide to EoT brainstorm which resolves. You draw petal, infernal tutor, cabal ritual. You put back bayou and misty, untap and draw misty which you play out. Your hand is now 2x infernal tutor, 2x petal, cab rit and past in flames. From here you go for the win and your opponent does nothing and concedes with a lethal number of tendrils on the stack.
Your mission, should you choose to accept, is to tell me how you sideboard for game two. All you have to go by is island, delta.
thats a real problem for me a lot of times, because I just shoot them t1. depending what I feel, on the dark I like 2 do like -1 preordian -2nd pif for 2 decay.
and against your opponent, he is playing combo, or control, that sure. So may be like +2 fluster +2 decay -1 pif -1 etw and 2 other cards.
Its always hard to sb when u saw nothing... But I would bet your opponent is on miracles or sneak and show.
I agree with Togores in the abstract, though I'd also personally try to fit in a chain of vapor as a hedge (this could be 100% wrong). I often bring it in when I am very unsure of what hate they could have, because if it ends up being something like a leyline, or quickly reanimating an iona, or some other weird thing, decay won't get you there, which feels bad. Plus, if they are on a deck that plays Wastelands, it might be riskier to need the green source (this is less of a big deal, I think?).
What did you end up doing, and what did they turn out to be on?
Sounds good! Depending on the course of the project, it might be worth it to list some decks we probably shouldn't expect to see often but that dump on us when they do show up. I don't think too much analysis is required for those, more just like a heads-up; just a few entries like "•8-Rack, Pox: lots of discard" or something. Might provide good information without taking too much time to put together.
Just remembered another deck: Reanimator? The "play Infernal, opponent pays G-Brand 14 life, we lose" situation is somewhat aggravating. Probably not as aggravating as facing down Tendrils for 20, but still.
Strong blue manabase but a lack of countermagic is weird. Almost definitely not TES because of the Island. Immediately I'd rule out Infect, Merfolk, and Faeries (no 1-drops or Vials were seen), Miracles (tons of countermagic), Blade (ditto), Delver (ditto again), and High Tide (...). No Wastelands, either, but that could just be the luck of the draw. My guess would be the mirror or Doomsday, but maybe Shardless, Show and Tell, or Reanimans.
My gut says that AnT or Doomsday is most likely because I have yet to encounter a non-Storm blue deck that doesn't run out anything—no discards, no cantrips, no countermagic, no Top—for two turns on a 6-card hand.
I'd probably board cautiously; no plays from the opponent could just indicate a bad hand/player on some other deck, but I don't think it's all that likely. My Spider Sense is telling me the opponent kept a hand like Island, Delta, C. Ritual, Petal, Business x2.
I'd probably either board nothing or go -1 Empty, -1 Tropical, +1 Tendrils, +1 Flusterstorm. Personally, I'd run a Petition instead of the Tendrils if it were in the list.
Speaking of, the list looks cool! Has the Top performed better than a Preordain? Nice to see I'm not the only one trying Mox+Rain. How are you liking that setup? Any further revelations re: the manabase?
Togores and Taconaut, I feel like I'd come down on the side of Chain for a couple of reasons: it'll hit more targets and the opponent seems to be light on countermagic. (Also, we can cut a land for more spell density/Goes-Fast.) However, that's assuming that permanent-hate is a good thing to bring in at all. If it's the mirror, as I suspect, I'd consider +1 Echoing Truth. Probably not, because Empty's not so good in the mirror, but maybe.
Togores, you mentioned some pages back another matchup in which you would board in Abrupt Decay, but I didn't feel like it seemed all that useful. It seems like I approach the card differently, so I'm interested to hear which matchups you include it and what your reasoning is. How often do you side it in? Do you have difficulty casting it against Wasteland decks? Are you currently running two green lands?
Two green lands md yes.
Bug delver
Grixis
Shardless
Patriot
Blade
Miracles
Taxes
Gw
Eldrazi
Lands
Cloudpost (not always)
Its just good against any deck running deathrite or permanent hate.
The following video link is from MTG Training Grounds and is ANT VS. Eldrazi. Storm gets a beating! I think it showcases the issues with the match-up.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2gluWEJkFCk
Getting paired against this deck feels miserable. I don't like the game plan of being all in on a turn 1 and having too few ways to combat some lock pieces. Has anybody considered Young Pyromancer? An early Pyromancer would allow you to cast cmc1 spells into a chalice for some value and would stall the board somewhat. Eldrazi takes a lot of damage from their lands so possibly a small Tendrils after finding some Cabal Rituals might do the job. Maybe multiple Tendrils. A few people in this thread used Pyromancer some time ago. What other match-up was this card valuable? Miracles, Delver?
Eldrazi is a terrible matchup for storm. Fundamentally so. Any measures to improve it postboard will only do do marginally and so you really need to question whether it's worth it.
Having said that I think Pyromancer could be decent vs them. It's main draw is almost that it ignores thorn. But I'm not sure it's at a sufficient power lvl to really beat them. I've played Pyromancer quite a bit out the board in the past. It was okay vs miracles but nowadays miracles always keeps in 2x plow and 2x terminus. Not where I want to be trying to resolve dudes.
Against other decks like delver it has been very hit-and-miss for me. Against any deck with bolts it's a no go.
Interestingly, I tested pyro against 4-c loam and there it was great. Sure they have ~2 answers post board, but no top, ponder or brainstorm to find them. They can't keep up most of the time.
I took a look at the decklist they linked in the description, and it looked rather slow to play and unfocused to me. I think everyone knows my position on 15 lands (main) and Grim Tutor, but why run Grim, Petition, Empty, and double PiF? Why 4x Therapy, singletons Duress and Thoughtseize? Only eight rituals to cover six spells with cmc ≥3? I think Ad Nauseam is pretty important in this matchup (and in many others). The sideboard looked very experimental to me, and I didn't like some of the card choices there, either.
Not sure how much of the problem in the match was the result of these choices, but I feel like the pilot shot himself in the foot a bit with this configuration. Just seems like it turns over rather slowly and with little option for a fast Tendrils. No hate or disrespect intended to the player.
I think the video actually demonstrates, to an extent, how important the ability to pull out turn-1s is. The Storm player's list didn't feel like it was all that capable of doing so consistently, and I wonder how much of a difference that made.
Again, Pyromancer (like Mentor et al.) is like a slow version of Empty the Warrens. I don't like banking on a T1 either, but paying mana to throw spells into the void for 1/1s when the other player can freecast 2/2 Endless Ones and—worse—Mimics doesn't feel like it'll avail us anything. Multiple Empties should boost our odds of hitting a fast kill substantially, though I haven't tested such a config very much. Suffice it to say that I'm much more comfortable with aiming for T1s than I am with running mans to boost our late game.
I think we may need to start running anti-permanent cards in the main, but I don't know what would work best; Chain and Decay have their own idiosyncracies. Anybody have ideas? I've considered maindecking a singleton Burning Wish both to increase our odds of going crazy and to give us the option of finding answers from the 'board. Has anybody given that a try?
Togores, I appreciate the info! Against decks with Deathrite, why not use Disfigure or Chain instead?
Because they can fluster or pierce or even force a decay. In matchups I dont want to play a discard before a disfigure. Also because of sb space. And to the last exent. Killing a goyf, null rod or cage can be important. They are a low creature count deck. So you can just kill theys clock and get like 3-5 time walks of it sometimes.
Got my byes for Prague as well :). Played with 1 DP, 1 EtW, 1 Rain of Filth, 6 discard, 15 lands, 1 Preordain, 1 Top main. Most interesting SB choice was the 2nd Tendrils I guess.
Round-1: Dark Maverick: 2-0 1-0
He got a GL for a decklist error and I made tokens in g2. My opener in g2 was funny though, It included 3 Probes, Brainstorm, Empty, but no land. I manage to find a land and a LED from the 2 probes + drawstep and the brainstorm finds the final petal needed to cast the empty.
Round-2: Infect: 0-2 1-1
In game-1 I have a clunky hand with too many tutors. His board is 2x Glistener Elf with me on 5 poison. His hand (which I know) is Berserk, Become Immense, Probe, FoW. He was a few cards short of casting Become Immense. I have a protected kill if I can resolve Dark Ritual, or I can aim to kill the next turn and hope I live (by either passing or discarding fow). I opt to lead on Ritual, because if he does force then I don't die to a Blighted Agent topdeck (he could probe me, force the probe pitching blighted agent, making become immense castable) and it gets a decent shot at a free win. He forces and topdecks the dude, so I live. However, without the ritual I need to draw a card which adds mana (including land) or a good cantrip. I draw the 4th tutor effect and die.
In game-2 he has a slow hand with plenty of disruption (FoW, FoW, Pierce, Fluster, Probe, StP, Land). I claw through most of it, but am 1 turn late in setting up a PiF line through his hand (which by then was that flusterstorm, another pierce and another FoW). It would have gone mana, pif (fluster), infernal saccing LED (fow or I get discard), flashback pif with plenty of mana for pierce. Earlier on I had a window to topdeck discard spell too, because he attacked with something leaving exactly 5 mana open (with FoW+Fluster in hand or so) and I chained his untapped hierarch EoT.
Round-3: Death & Taxes: 2-0 2-1
In game-1 I cantrip on 1, brainstorm and therapy on 2 (miss, he has junk). He topdecks Revoker (correctly names LED, although my start could have looked like a slow grixis start), but it doesn't save him.
In game-2 he dies to tokens, I don't think he boarded in outs.
Round-4: Elves: 2-1 3-1
I get turn-3'd which raced me by one turn despite being on the play. Dark Petition was actively bad (had the artifacts + DP hand) here.
In game-2 I have LED,a ritual, IT,IT, 2 lands or so after probing (and mulling). He has seize, choke and RecSage. I opt to play out the LED, rather than letting him take it. He takes the (cabal I think) ritual and I draw lands in the following turns. However, he decided against playing t3 recsage for my LED (idk what he did, something silly) so he dies to my Ad Nauseam from 16...
In game-3 I have the clunkiest hand ever (PiF, IT, ToA, LP, Lands - kept IT, Cantrip, PiF, LP, 3 Lands I think) while he puts some dudes on the board. He manages to miss damage several times and I topdeck an Ad Nauseam at 13 (not close to winning with PiF yet, IT'd for a 2nd LP before), so I cast that. I hit good, go to 5, and win. Sort of feels deserved because of his terrible play..
Round-5: Miracles: ID (won the game we played for fun) ID 3-1-1 into 4th
The fun game was really interesting, with him having the force to stop me early, getting down CB, but not setting up well (no tops/cantrips) where I had Top. I got a lot of time, and there is a really complex turn where I have both Empty and Tendrils between my hand and top of the deck, but he has quite some counters (and potentially a clique). I end up making lethal-1 goblins, knowing that he has terminus but no 6th land (nor was it on top, Cb revealed something). He draws it the turn after though, and we go draw go for a long time, but the Tendrils eventually gets there.
QF: Miracles (with daze/mentor): 2-0 (4-1-1)
Game-1 is quite easy because he just doesn't get a Counterbalance (despite 2 FoW, 2-3 Daze).
Game-2 is interesting. I am about to win with a very good PiF hand when he finds RiP. After some sculpting I manage to make a good number of goblin tokens and pass. I get to hit once, but in the two turns he looks at a really large number of cards (sequencing his cantrips/top very well imo, actually used all 4 BS/4 PN during those 2 turns too) and finally finds the EE with the exact last card he got to see with 2 mana left (could still top once more for his 1 Terminus). But without pressure I manage to find one of my 2 Tendrils before I'm dead/cliquelocked.
SF: Grixis Delver: 2-1 (5-1-1)
Me and my friend are both playing a semi-final against two teammates (who are also a couple - the guy was the miracles player from r5). I lose the first game when she doesn't draw any countermagic, but a fast clock with a therapy is pretty good.
In the second one she has Daze, Cage, Pierce, Therapy, Delver,something and I have to choose what to discard (she could have dazed..). I go with the therapy hoping she can't flash it back because of the cage, and aim for a tutor chain/tokens. She does cast the cage, and later on therapies me (a new one) for Tutor (miss, otherwise I'd have won by then though). By the time I actually do find tutor I'm on a 2 turn clock (shaman+delver) and goblins won't do it, so I have to pass and hope to win on my turn. She taps very strangely because she intended to flash back some therapies (nope), but I don't think it really mattered.
The final game is quite nice. I have PiF and ToA (boarded in the 2nd) in my opener, and the game goes for a bit. Eventually her hand is "Daze, Pierce, Card that did not flip Delver earlier" and I have a line around her soft counters quite easily. Turns out the last card was a FoW, and I was seriously next leveled. However I get to flip my top in the Tutor I knew was there, and she gets the choice to pierce this (I can pay, but then I won't be able to make goblins/lethal pif. However I will have a PiF flashback kill next turn with the CRit I find) or let me tutor. She allows it, and I make some goblins. They get there.
F: Deathblade: 2-0 (6-1-1)
G1 was a blowout (my very good 7 vs his 6). I open on top, he makes a shaman. He plays SFM on 3 keeping Shaman open instead of holding Clique open but it wouldn't have mattered. He's dead to a tutor chain with a tutor hidden on top.
G2 features an interesting decision on his part, after I once again get a sick hand (on 6 this time). He opens Ponder, keeping. I lead with Probe seeing FoW, Strix, Ponder, SCM, Lands. I then fetch and cast Dark Ritual. Does he force or not? Turns out he had Meddling Mage on top from the ponder and should have probably FoW'd (I wouldn't fow without good cards on top I think). I therapy his fow and make 14 tokens, saccing one to discard ponder. 13 will beat a SFM from the top (he was on 19, playing fetch + mystic passing, I hit for 12 to 6, he puts in batterskull and plows a token but still takes 10 gaining 4 to 0, I believe). He fetches and casts Strix, takes 13, draws and extends the hand.
Goblins were the nuts, as always. Top was very good. Not meeting Eldrazi was nice, and my draws definately very good (way more quick tokens hands than expected) throughout the day. 2nd Tendrils from the board was quite good. Dark Petition wasn't great, and I doubt I'll go back to 2 (do still prefer it over Grim Tutor). Rain of Filth was mainly absent, but was quite solid at least once, and it was never bad.
Last edited by JamieW89; 05-23-2016 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Added in the report
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
Eldrazi savaged me yesterday. I didn't do too well all around (1-2), but I think a good portion of that was just my being a bit rusty and making stupid decisions on cantrips and a few mulligans. G1 R1 against a brew I got clobbered by the first really poor Ad Nauseam I've had in a long time. Eh, so it goes.
So in both games against the Menace I had a turn-2 combo lined up, and in both games it wasn't fast enough. I boarded in an Empty, Decay, Trop, 2x Hurkyl's. Game 1 the opponent mulled to five with no answers in hand and topdecked Thorn, Thorn, Chalice (in a row and in that order), and in game 2 I opened with Duress to reveal 2x Thorn. Drew a Therapy about two turns later. Not a single piece of sideboard material showed up except for Empty.
I don't think there's a lot we can do about this matchup all around. I'm starting to think boarding into 1x Empty and 3-4 Hurkyl's is probably our only option. Hurkyl's doesn't go so well with Ad Nauseam, though, and that card's won me most of the few games I've won against the Menace.
This was a fun moment :D
https://twitter.com/TogoresTcg/statu...06070116765696
I'm having some trouble facing burn lately. The burn player in my LGS has Mindbreak Trap, Graveyard hate, and Pyrostatic Pillar on top of Eidolon post-board. How would you board against this match up if you have 2 extra Tendrils and 1 empty? I now plan on adding a 2nd echoing truth on my sb. I usually board out the extra cantrips, 2nd PIF, and Ad Nauseam. Any feedback is much appreciated.
Cheers
I'm typically on 4-5 removal, 6-7 discard, 3ToA, 2PiF, EtW ... you need to keep all PIF, makes loop easier with multiple ToA and saves dmg - kills through Pillar FX are real
My Tuesday streak broke today. I was at 22-0 but then lost 1:2 to 4c Delver:one bad CT decision, some lucky draws by him. Currently at 23-1. I have to start all over again.
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
What exactly happened here? I see you cast Cabal Ritual, in response surgical, what is petal casting?
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