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Thread: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

  1. #61
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Played at the Finnish champs, went 3-3 and dropped because friends had already dropped and wanted to go get some drinks and go to sauna so they pressured me to give up and leave with them. Wins were R1 Patriot, R4 Elves, R5 Spanish Inquisition and losses were to R2 Jund, R3 Shardless BUG and R6 Jund. I learned how annoying discard and deathrite shamans can be, the metagame here could really call for more than just one Dark Confidant. Playing against elves was fun, t2 ad nauseam from 20 life to 4, played 4 ponders, two-four preordains/brainstorms and used SDT at every chance when it was relevant, got to 16 mana, 17 storm and my deck had only 13 cards left, including 3 infernals, PiF and Tendrils, but couldn't find any of them. I think I should have just stopped at safe(r) lifetotal played out my artifact mana and then storm him out the next turn. Games 2 and 3 I was faster, g3 including storming with Chain of vapor, two petals, led and infernal for lethal 18.

    My R2 loss could possibly have been prevented if I didn't receive a game loss for forgetting to write my Dread of Nights to the sideboard... I could also have played better against Shardless BUG, first game I decided to just go for it, I knew he was packing discard and possibly Hymn, he had two cards in hand and I had enough mana for Ad Nauseam while I have plenty of mana floating, good life total and no land played. He did have the force of will. Game two he pressured me with Deathrite Shamans keeping my graveyard small, while doing 2-4 damage a turn. I had plenty of cards in hand and found Tendrils of Agony. He had a good amount of cards in hand while I had cabal therapy, I counted that I could have made exactly 20 life if he plays nothing from his hand. 22 if he plays Force of Will. He's at 17 life and he has two active shamans with two Shardless Agents in the graveyard. I go for it, he doesn't play force of will even though he has it and I can't go for it, cause I'll do 20 damage and he will then just exile the tendrils. I'm at 7 life and he activates DRS twice in my end, then again after he has untapped. GG! At first I kind of regretted not going for it, I had few cabal rituals in hand and I could have possibly make him waste DRS activation on something in my graveyard. On the other hand, I know he plays ANT also and would have played very carefully until the end.

    I haven't tested against Jund a lot, but I think I did all the right things, not keeping hands with business that could be discarded and then surgicaled, saving brainstorms, laying down artifact mana (LED did get R2 t2 decayed then surgicaled...) and playing very carefully. All the games ended 2-1 in their favor and I did just fine in my opinion. Playing the deck was extremely fun and all my opponents were really nice, especially the Elves! player in round four. Max Sjöblom also played ANT and piloted it all the way to the top 4, losing to Jund and making me feel a little bit better about my two losses against Jund.

    Tops:
    +Meeting a lot of great people, there should be more big events where to play in!
    +Starting the tournament with 2-0 victory over Patriot
    +Doing better than (most) my friends ;)
    +Every time when I or my opponents used something to watch opponents hand, people were willing to play with their hands open until a brainstorm
    +After the tournament shitEDH, Death and Taxes vs. Maverick games for fun and all the people that I traveled with
    +My friends loaning me better fetches, the missing bayou and tropical.
    +Deck was a blast to play

    Flops:
    -I don't know how to write deck lists and my friends public shaming about it
    -Hymn to Tourach hitting so well.
    -Discard
    -Didn't use Swarms or Dread of Nights from the sideboard even once during the tournament
    -After inspecting what kind of decks were played in the tournament, I discover that there was only 6 Jund decks in the tournament of 100 players, and I got to play against two of them. Just my luck!

    Thanks to every judge, organizer, participant and opponent I got to face in the tournament, hopefully I'll get to meet you soon once again!

  2. #62

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Jund is not usually an issue to beat. Even their best draw, t1 discard, t2 hymn, t3 lili, is beatable with the right draw. Keeping cantrip heavy hands usually helps. Admittedly I have lost to it a couple times, but 1 time was due to greed on my part during an Ad Nauseam, and the second time bad keeps vs. good draws.

  3. #63

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    There are a huge number of things in this thread I disagree with. I'll touch some random topics:

    - I've ran AdN, PiF, ToA, EtW in the maindeck before and am doing so currently. It's only 1 more casting cost than using a Grim Tutor, and nobody complained about that increasing the mana cost too much. It's basically fine. I hate LDV, I dislike Grim Tutor, and I don't think preordains give enough gas. Also, having access to maindeck EtW increases your clock quite a bit sometimes.

    - I'd almost never side out all preordains. I can see myself cutting one probe.

    - Against URW Delver, bring in at least two of the Abrupt Decays and Massacres. You need to be prepared for Meddling Mage, and they buy time against Delver and Mystic.

    - I have never liked Carpet of Flowers. Having to get green mana to fight the mana disruption is counterproductive. You end up being weak to Stifle and Wasteland (and Daze, to a lesser extent). I've been using one or two City of Traitors against Delver to some success. Also, bring in EtW against Delver. I've frequently cut AdN here.

    - I like an extra AdN in the sideboard as the plan against jund. It's excellent to naturally draw vs discard, and it beats Mindbreak Trap. Also, I'm trying out a couple Chrome Mox along with the extra AdN against fast combo to improve your clock quite a bit.

    - Cabal Therapy is definitely the best discard spell. The discard suite should be 4 Cabal Therapy, 2-3 Duress.

    - What do you need Chain of Vapor for, anyway? The only thing that isn't hit by Abrupt Decay is likely Leyline of Sanctity, and you're not really resolving Chain there anyway when you can't use your discard to take their counters. I'd rather just ignore it and play more things like Dread of Night and Massacre to kill Death and Taxes. :) You still have EtW as an out anyway.

  4. #64
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Anselm View Post
    1.) I have never liked Carpet of Flowers. Having to get green mana to fight the mana disruption is counterproductive. You end up being weak to Stifle and Wasteland (and Daze, to a lesser extent). I've been using one or two City of Traitors against Delver to some success. Also, bring in EtW against Delver. I've frequently cut AdN here.

    2.) What do you need Chain of Vapor for, anyway? The only thing that isn't hit by Abrupt Decay is likely Leyline of Sanctity, and you're not really resolving Chain there anyway when you can't use your discard to take their counters. I'd rather just ignore it and play more things like Dread of Night and Massacre to kill Death and Taxes. :) You still have EtW as an out anyway.
    1.) I fail to see how Carpet of Flowers makes one more vulnerable to Wasteland than your proposed replacement City of Traitors. :I EtW is nice against RUG, but against Patriot it is risky, as it is castrated by Batterskull.

    2.) Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is a card. As is Omniscience and Dream Halls. As is Sneak Attack. As is Griselbrand. As is Iona, Shield of Emeria. As is Flame-Kin Zealot and Flayer of the Hatebound. As is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Don't forget Blood Moon, which ain't going anywhere anytime soon against Decay. Also, I recall someone arguing that getting green mana to fight the mana disruption is counterproductive. 1U to get rid of Thalia is a nice deal, as opposed to 1BG. Furthermore, it also advances our game against D&T by bouncing our artifact mana before Thalia for free storm later.

  5. #65

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I don't think Chain of Vapor really works when your opponent has already resolved Show and Tell or Dread Return. I do however think it is necessary in the deck and is much better than Abrupt Decay. I've gone down to 2 Abrupt Decay recently for the reason Abrupt Decay is only better than Chain of Vapor against three cards in whole format.

    I'm not terribly in love with Carpet of Flowers. It is only good against RUG Delver and don't think it is worth the 3 sideboard slots for the one match-up.

    In the past, Massacre has been the nuts against UWR. But recently more and more people know about the card and have been playing around it. I really like Disfigure against the deck as it is on color and kills everything relevant as they tend to board out TNN.

    The City of Traitors/Crystal Vein tech I remember from 2010 and don't remember it being too good. However I have not personally tested it.

  6. #66

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by bjholmes3 View Post
    1.) I fail to see how Carpet of Flowers makes one more vulnerable to Wasteland than your proposed replacement City of Traitors. :I EtW is nice against RUG, but against Patriot it is risky, as it is castrated by Batterskull.

    2.) Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is a card. As is Omniscience and Dream Halls. As is Sneak Attack. As is Griselbrand. As is Iona, Shield of Emeria. As is Flame-Kin Zealot and Flayer of the Hatebound. As is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Don't forget Blood Moon, which ain't going anywhere anytime soon against Decay. Also, I recall someone arguing that getting green mana to fight the mana disruption is counterproductive. 1U to get rid of Thalia is a nice deal, as opposed to 1BG. Furthermore, it also advances our game against D&T by bouncing our artifact mana before Thalia for free storm later.
    City of Traitors gives you mana the turn you go off. I guess Carpet of Flowers does the same if you hold off casting it until you go off, essentially making it just another ritual. I was more thinking about fetching Tropical turn 1 and getting the Carpet Dazed, but I admit that that argument for City of Traitors isn't really valid. I might actually have to try out a Carpet of Flowers there instead. Still, being vulnurable to Stifle is a thing.

    Of all your proposed Chainable problems, I wouldn't want to bounce a single one. Every single one of them kills you after they have resolved anyway, except for Jace, and if they tap out for Jace you should just kill them, not bounce Jace. Blood Moon is horrible against ANT, you can fetch basics and they're dead if they tap out for it most of the time. Thalia is a non-factor once you sideboard in 3-4 Dread of Night and 0-2 Massacre, not to mention the Decays.

  7. #67

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Anselm View Post
    City of Traitors gives you mana the turn you go off. I guess Carpet of Flowers does the same if you hold off casting it until you go off, essentially making it just another ritual. I was more thinking about fetching Tropical turn 1 and getting the Carpet Dazed, but I admit that that argument for City of Traitors isn't really valid. I might actually have to try out a Carpet of Flowers there instead. Still, being vulnurable to Stifle is a thing.
    Are you suggesting they would stifle the carpet trigger? Couldn't you just go to 2nd main and retrigger it? I suppose if it were the first turn you were using it, that would suck, but isn't the point of carpet to stick it early and use it multiple times throughout the game?

  8. #68

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    Are you suggesting they would stifle the carpet trigger? Couldn't you just go to 2nd main and retrigger it? I suppose if it were the first turn you were using it, that would suck, but isn't the point of carpet to stick it early and use it multiple times throughout the game?
    No, sorry, I'm saying that you need to fetch your tropical island to get green mana, most of the time, thus opening yourself up to Stifle. And, sticking it early means exposing yourself to Wasteland, as was my original point. Really, you have no bad cards against RUG, I'm happy to just swap the AdN for EtW and call it a go. For RWU, adding some massacre and decays instead of maybe a petal and some preordain/probe.

  9. #69
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    If you fetch another land, you're still open to Stifle. Also, Cabal Ritual is pretty bad against blue decks. Good players counter your mana and cantrips, so casting multiple rituals will end up pretty hard. Carpet might only be an upgrade to Cabal Ritual, but it's a huge one.
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  10. #70
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    If they stifle your carpet just go to second main phase and try it again..

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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Anselm View Post
    City of Traitors gives you mana the turn you go off. I guess Carpet of Flowers does the same if you hold off casting it until you go off, essentially making it just another ritual. I was more thinking about fetching Tropical turn 1 and getting the Carpet Dazed, but I admit that that argument for City of Traitors isn't really valid. I might actually have to try out a Carpet of Flowers there instead. Still, being vulnurable to Stifle is a thing.

    Of all your proposed Chainable problems, I wouldn't want to bounce a single one. Every single one of them kills you after they have resolved anyway, except for Jace, and if they tap out for Jace you should just kill them, not bounce Jace. Blood Moon is horrible against ANT, you can fetch basics and they're dead if they tap out for it most of the time. Thalia is a non-factor once you sideboard in 3-4 Dread of Night and 0-2 Massacre, not to mention the Decays.
    Chain is a great catch-all and allows natural tendrils kills through sac-bouncing artifact mana. Although not necessarily plan A; it's an anti-hate that opens up further lines of play. Also answers Teeg (massacre and single DoN don't).

  12. #72
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Just checked the oracle text on Carpet again and it says: "At the beginning of each of your main phases,..."

    Edit: Someone edited or deleted their post but there was a post saying that carpet triggered only on your main phase before combat.
    Legacy: Rituals
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  13. #73

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Anselm View Post
    No, sorry, I'm saying that you need to fetch your tropical island to get green mana, most of the time, thus opening yourself up to Stifle. And, sticking it early means exposing yourself to Wasteland, as was my original point. Really, you have no bad cards against RUG, I'm happy to just swap the AdN for EtW and call it a go. For RWU, adding some massacre and decays instead of maybe a petal and some preordain/probe.

    Now I understand what you're saying, but fetching for island on your first turn also opens you up to stifle. And if carpet resolves, you are no longer vulnerable to wasteland. Now if they daze your carpet AND wasteland you, you're gonna have a bad time, but I think the benefit outweighs the risk. However, I'm not sure if I would bring in carpets against Team America as they can function on just a sea and a bayou. Is it worth it for only 1 mana?

  14. #74
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by bjholmes3 View Post
    1.) I fail to see how Carpet of Flowers makes one more vulnerable to Wasteland than your proposed replacement City of Traitors. :I EtW is nice against RUG, but against Patriot it is risky, as it is castrated by Batterskull.

    2.) Ruric Thar, the Unbowed is a card. As is Omniscience and Dream Halls. As is Sneak Attack. As is Griselbrand. As is Iona, Shield of Emeria. As is Flame-Kin Zealot and Flayer of the Hatebound. As is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Don't forget Blood Moon, which ain't going anywhere anytime soon against Decay. Also, I recall someone arguing that getting green mana to fight the mana disruption is counterproductive. 1U to get rid of Thalia is a nice deal, as opposed to 1BG. Furthermore, it also advances our game against D&T by bouncing our artifact mana before Thalia for free storm later.
    What is the point in chaining a flame-kin? You will almost certainly be dead regardless

  15. #75
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    That's true. Honestly, I got the Dredge wincons mixed up, and didn't want to have to look them up. Very pro, I know, lol.

    So, any further requests for the guide? I'm fairly busy, but I can find time here and there to add to it. So far, I still need to finish some matchups and SB strats (need help on this, guys. Never played against Team America once, lol).

  16. #76

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jona View Post
    Carpet might only be an upgrade to Cabal Ritual, but it's a huge one.
    But you can't flash it back... And PiF win is 80%+ of how this deck wins.

  17. #77
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    First things first: You do not have to stick the carpet of flowers the first thing in the game.

    You can easily wait to turn 3+ and drop it there and use it as a ritual instead.
    Tempo decks often play very passively against a combo deck which could cost them as well.
    If they drop a creature/outtap for anything, that's the part you can try to punish them and sneak in that carpet.


    Also, PiF is a good card, but it's not your main wincondition. It's a tool to let you win attrition wars very well,
    this is one of the main reasons I still run the oldschool ill-gotten gains/2nd ad nauseam in the board or main instead of a PiF.


    About cabal ritual being crap against decks with a lot of counters and disruption...
    That's actually where they get quite good.
    You will hit the threshhold, you will be topdecking for cards.
    This card, on it's own, produces the mana required for an ad nauseam or PiF ( assuming you are on 3 lands or whatever)
    LED doesn't do this, ritual doesn't do this etc etc.

  18. #78

    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by practical joke View Post


    Also, PiF is a good card, but it's not your main wincondition. It's a tool to let you win attrition wars very well,
    this is one of the main reasons I still run the oldschool ill-gotten gains/2nd ad nauseam in the board or main instead of a PiF.
    care to post your list?

    I recently switched from a BW build (similar to Jezierski's list from BOM) back to a more traditional list with 1x grim tutor and 7 discard...I miss IGG...

  19. #79
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    Re: [Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    Quote Originally Posted by NiiLoC View Post
    care to post your list?

    I recently switched from a BW build (similar to Jezierski's list from BOM) back to a more traditional list with 1x grim tutor and 7 discard...I miss IGG...
    Besides sideboard, I don't think I've changed it for 3 years or something. This is the list I ran a few years back and as ANT still do.

    If you switch this build into prob/therapy and/or 7 discards into a combination of chants/discard. it's fine either way, just a way of preferences.


    At each event, I just run through my box of combo cards and decide what I'll run with at that event if I decide to play combo.
    This is mostly for sideboard cards, they change wherever I go

    if I'd run BW, I'll immediatly switch to the TNT style of builds ( which have been forged into ANT currently it seems)


    Maindeck:


    Land (15)
    2 Island
    1 Swamp

    4 Misty Rainforest
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Verdant Catacombs

    Non-Land Mana (18)

    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Dark Ritual

    Draw (19)

    2 Ad Nauseam
    4 Infernal Tutor

    1 Ill-Gotten Gains

    4 Ponder

    4 Preordain

    4 Brainstorm

    Disruption (7)

    4 Duress

    3 Thoughtseize

    Kill (1)
    1 Tendrils of Agony

  20. #80
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    Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

    I was looking at modo results when I saw larkblue decklist (4-0 and 3-1) which has 2 Cavern of Souls with 2 Notion Thief + 4 Dark Confidant in the SB. He has to have nice blowout stories with these Thieves already. Those techs...

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