[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Togores]

Ended up loosing top 8 to bug delver.
His mull to 6 on the play g1 was:
Fetch
Chaman
Hymn
Hymn
Fow
Daze

Un beateable

G2
His hand
Shaman
Fetch
Fetch
fow
Delever
Hymn
Seize

I can go of t2 if he disnt force my ritual but he does and on his t2 he makes seize hymn. Gg

Im really sad cause rest of top 8 was full of decks i can beat easy:
Gwb tespian
2 merfolks
Uwr blade
Miracles
Taxes


Sad sad sad and angry 😡

[sawatarix]

To be honest Bug Delver is our worst delver matchup among all the others.
I love to play against rug delver,uwr delver or 4 colour delver all day long, but not bug delver: the deck has it all from countermagic to discard to graveyardhate and a fast clock - all in one deck.

some words on the bud delver matchup:

- Cantrips: Use your brainstorms to defend your hand against opposing discard spells like thoughtseize or hymn to tourach.
senseis devining top is a great tool to hide a tutor on top of your library while making land drops every turn to set up a perfect turn.

- because they have a deathrite shaman on the battlefield doesn't mean that past in flames doesn't work.I see a lot of people who give up the pif line just because of the elf, do not ! What you need is an additional ritual to start a line like this: duress ->ritual -> ritual -> ritual -> nfernal tutor -> infernal tutor -> past in flames.A lonely deathrite shaman cannot disrupt this line.

- Empty the warrens is not as good as you think. I remember a game when i created 8 goblins on turn 1 against bug delver and they got stalled by multiple deathrite shamans and delvers on 4 life, it felt very miserable. After turn 3 Empty the warrens becomes a dead card.
Same goes for Young Pyromancer, this boy has trouble when he faces tarmogoyfs + deathrite shamans.you have to make around 6+ elementals to break the wall.

after all, i'm still looking for a sideboard card to turn the matchup into our favour.if you have any ideas (crazy ideas are also welcome) let me know.
ps: a friend of mine suggested compost :D

[Togores]

As said bug delver is a too bad pairing.

cards I think could help:
Spirirtual Focus (its white but the cards is just to awesome not to mention)
Ancestral vision
divert

[Noxwalrus]

Hey felt I'd share my current list as it has been performing well locally. BUG/RUG Delver matchups are about the same as a stock 15/16 cantrip list but I feel this list has much better matchups vs DnT, Elves, and UWR due to the wishboard.

Main:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Burning Wish

Side:
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Xantid Swarm

I originally had the idea of running a single BW over Grim as an additional tutor, but figured if I'm going to dedicate at least 2 sideboard slots to wish targets I might as well run 2 and expand my wish board a bit. After some testing I was really enjoying seeing a turn 1 plains-->vial and responding with a turn 1 BW for Massacre so I didn't want to cut BW. However, a 4-2 split of Infernal-BW is probably the most ideal if it wasn't for the fact that BW can't get PiF. I remedied this by bumping to a 3-3 split, allowing a BW-->Infernal-->PiF line for when goblins doesn't cut it or you can only make 6-7 storm pre BW.

The wishboard really helps vs elves, goblins, and dredge due to the Pyroclasm. And DnT is obv helped with Massacres and Pyroclasm. I think the big benefits are vs UWR, running both BW and Infernal means Meddling Mage gets worse and you don't need to dilute the deck with removal as much due to the ability to wish up Void Snare or Massacre or whatever else sparks your fancy. I've noticed slight improvements vs BUG decks as well. The higher density of action leaves you less vulnerable to discard and some hands with IT and BW are pretty much impervious to discard.

Having played both this and wishless lists, I think BW is the way to go. Any thoughts or criticisms welcome. Ideas for SB material is appreciated.

[pondering]

Hello All,
First time contributing but a long time reader I have been trying out different ideas as of late to make the deck faster and more consistent, I started thinking what card was last in and first out the answer was of course was always preordain so I decided to test a mix of cards in the spot and the results are below.

Please be aware wins and losses are based on match and not games also pretty stock list.

2-BURNING WISH 1-TOP
Bug-
3W 5L
Rug
5W 3L
Miracles-
3W 5L
D&T-
6W 2L

2-TOP 1-GRIM
Bug-
4W 4L
Rug
5W 3L
Miracles-
5W 3L
D&T-
3W 5L

2-PERSONAL TUTOR 1-PREORDAIN
Bug-
5W 3L
Rug
6W 2L
Miracles-
6W 2L
D&T-
5W 3L

2-PERSONAL , 1 GAMBLE
Bug-
3W 5L
Rug
4W 4L
Miracles-
5W 3L
D&T-
5W 3L

conclusion the list i found the most consistent was the preordain / personal tutor list almost never losing a game one really helped out and made the side boarded games a coin flip but it never felt that close. Ad nauseam is a lot better out of all the games with the deck i fizzled once. the only thing i didn't try but wanted too was running a top with the personals has anyone else tried this and if so please give feedback because i might have just ran good.

[nevilshute]

@Kai:

I really think this should be our most important area of focus: beating bug delver. It is the quintessential tough-but-beatable matchup imo. And I'll agree with you that it is our worst matchup (among the tier 1 strategies). So what cards should we be testing out?

I think it would be good to just brainstorm a bit and not exclude any card without at least discussing it.

A couple of cards that merit discussion:

Ignorant Bliss - This card was (as far as I remember) last discussed when Adam Prosak advocated it but was not picked up by the storm community at large. I'll admit to having never tried it out myself. At one mana CMC it would have been another story altogether. But at two CMC it means making our 2nd land drop (or burning a petal on this). That means that it won't stop their turn one Thoughtseize. Heck, on the draw it won't even stop their turn two Hymn. I can see it having some niche uses a bit later in the game like randomly mizing a Liliana activation. But I think that's quite narrow. We need to either stop their discard spells early on or have some way of slowing the game down enough to actually make us get to a mid-or-late game (perhaps this, along side Young Pyro?). I also don't like how this has a big, fat Daze/Pierce bulls eye on it.


Young Pyromancer - Popularized by you Kai, I only bring him up because I still think he merits some discussion. He can be very good against bug delver. A friend of mine plays bug delver a lot and he says that the deck hates this guy. An early pyromancer represents a real problem for a tempo deck with only 12-14 creatures. That said I think he's somewhat poorer here than against RUG delver due, mainly, to Deathrite Shaman. First of all, deathrite is a one-drop with 2 toughness unlike Nimble Mongoose which will start the game as a 1/1. This means a bit in practice. Not only because he profitably blocks an elemental token during each of our combat steps, but also - and more damaging for us - because he remains an active asset for them. Against RUG we only need to worry about flipped delvers. With an active pyromancer we can pretty much have infinite blockers for their goyfs and mongooses in most situations meaning the game slows down. Eventually we amass all the combo pieces and disruption we need to just win, or we make a 2nd pyromancer and will eventually win that way.

That's not the case with an active deathrite as he will be pinging us for 2 every turn while taking meaningful spells out of our yard, all the while remaining active as a blocker. I've found it extremely troublesome to win the battle even after resolving Pyromancer if my opponent has a goyf and a deathrite, or even worse 2 deathrites. This also speaks to your experience with Empty the Warrens, Kai. Making 8 goblins on turn 1/2 against RUG delver is usually game unless they can deploy running goyfs on subsequent turns. Against bug delver it is rarely enough. I still think Empty is an inherently strong card against tempo strategies but it needs to be at its best against bug delver. Making 8 on turn 1 on the play will probably be enough in a majority of cases but is by no means a sure thing. On any later turn I'd say it's a losing position. 10 goblins on turn 1 on the play should be a win nearly every time. Incidentally I think (and this mostly goes for sideboarded games) that Empty can be a strong finisher in the mid-to-late game. This only really works if you've managed to slow them down which in turn means stopping their threats either by discarding creatures, using Abrupt Decays on them or getting down a pyromancer to gum up the ground.

Another issue for the pyromancer is Golgari Charm and co. As this tech has become more well known (and even if it wasn't then just because people fear Empty the Warrens) the bug decks will usually have 2-3 golgari charm effects after sideboard. Such a small number means that it is not unreasonable to expect to dodge it in many games but they will blow out your pyromancer AND all his tokens every now and again which is usually game over.

All of this has actually got me thinking about Talrand, Sky Summoner. Now he is probably one mana too expensive (on the other hand this means that he dodges Abrupt Decay )

Pros:
- they have nearly no way to remove him once he is in play. Liliana, really, is the only way and that implies us not having a way to cast one spell with him in play to make a drake token.
- his power level is through the roof. His effect is... well more than twice as good as that of the pyromancer. His tokens fly. That means that all of the problems posed by deathrite shaman are more or less avoided. I would imagine that a resolved Talrand will end the game in very few turns.
- neither him nor his drakes die to -1/-1 effects.
- is also good (probably better) against miracles. The games are already slow so we will be getting to 4 mana much more frequently.

Cons:
- his mana cost... That's pretty much it, but I imagine that this will be his downfall. I like to play 16 lands which is 1 more than the norm but even then, getting to 4CMC is a tall order. Especially against a wasteland/daze deck.

I think I will test him as a 2-of in my sideboard in mtgo and see how it goes, but I'm not going in with high expectations.


Compost is not a bad idea, actually. It's a bit situational though which would be my biggest concern. Sometimes bug delver beats us without casting any black spells other than deathrite. Also, thoughtseize is still very potent, and this will "merely" turn it into a Clique effect. If they take our tutor the turn before we go off then it's quite unlikely that the top of our library contains another tutor. I mean it's still an awesome effect and infinitely better than nothing when being discarded.

[Sloshthedark]

I chose Surgical because against Miracles you already board in a lot of cards. And the rest of the decks you either want turn0 interaction against dredge/reanimator/storm or play it during your combo-turn for free extra storm or hellbent-ness.

Other than turn 0 interaction (Daze?Fow?) Extirpate is "strictly" better with reanimator and Storm and applicable with control and tempo... Eot Fow check no BS, therapy something ggtnxbye... Extra storm is less or irrelevant for cardchoices after PIF release... I agree Extraction is better extracting yourself thou

@Togores - it happens, UBG is not very good, congratulations

Ancestral Visions - used to be tech in Spain years back I believe, tried that like half year ago, went disapointed
Spiritual Focus - interesting but slow, offcolor and shuts off discard just in terms of card quantity
Divert - is decent

@ sawatarix - I think Confidant UBG Build is the worse... Compost is just..not good
-Blood Moon =) - you wanted to be crazy... I tried that just in TES for 2 tournamens, actually never cast it... sounds awful at first, but it's one card...
-heavy Manplan
-16 cantrip build might be good once... no easy answer

@pondering
interesting, I think it's much more up to you to interpret the games/matches ... 5/3 doesn't prove much
I'd check LDV before PT (should be better unless you have a sorcery "bomb" like miracle wheel/mass bounce/sweeper), SDT is a natural fit for both


@ Nevilshute - Talrand is interesting but the CC4 resp UU doen't make it a consistent plan

[Dragonslayer_90]

@Togores: Congrats on your good finish. I was wondering what is your main deck configuration with two sensei's top?

@ beating BUG Delver: If not Blood Moon as Sloshthedark suggested maybe Back to Basics? Worse than actual blood moon but easier to cast early since by turn 2 we can have both basics out and cast it off a dark ritual.

[Togores]

@Togores: Congrats on your good finish. I was wondering what is your main deck configuration with two sensei's top?

@ beating BUG Delver: If not Blood Moon as Sloshthedark suggested maybe Back to Basics? Worse than actual blood moon but easier to cast early since by turn 2 we can have both basics out and cast it off a dark ritual.

Thats the deck I signed in:

Spells:45
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
2 Sensei Divining Top
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam


Lands:15
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Massacre
2 Flusterstorm
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Tendrills of agony
1 Bruning Wish

[sawatarix]

among all the ideas we had so far i like divert/flusterstorm the most , simply because they can counter a discard spell or even a counterspell (if they try to counter one of our own discard spells or rituals.

cards like compost and bloodmoon are pretty cute, during BoM7 in november last year my friends and i were trolling around with some bloodmoon ideas in our ant/tes-sideboards to completely shut down decks with greedy manabases.
The problem with blood moon is that the card becomes dead when deathrite shaman hits the field.
i dont see any alternate winconditions next to the stormroute against bug delver.
senseis divining top combined with flusterstorm/divert could be the way to go.
another thing: in g2/g3 you can slam all LED's you have on the battlefield immediately because our opponent won't have any abrupt decays left in his deck.

talrand is the best merfolk ever printed (even better than superstar true-name nemesis) if it hits the table.
but as martin says UU2 demands at least one lotus petal or dark ritual and we don't want to turn on their problasts !

[P-E]

How can t you see another win route against bug? 4 baloth 4 dodecapod 4 guerilla tactics 3 psychic purge and prey they have a lot of hymn and lilies :{

Turn 2 dark ritual the abyss ahah

[Jin Gitaxias]

I may try out 1 talrand if i have the time to test. Just to make sure no stone stays unturned when trying to solve the bugdelver matchup. I do not think pyroblast is something to worry about in that matchup though

[Togores]

another thing: in g2/g3 you can slam all LED's you have on the battlefield immediately because our opponent won't have any abrupt decays left in his deck.

!

Thats not true, usualy most of my bug delver opponents have decay game 2. I usualy drop the leds but they keep it in in fear of the xantid usualy. And to catch led, sensei or so.

Obv not 4x but 2x wuld not be strange to see.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thats not true, usualy most of my bug delver opponents have decay game 2. I usualy drop the leds but they keep it in in fear of the xantid usualy. And to catch led, sensei or so.

Obv not 4x but 2x wuld not be strange to see.

This is true, though it is not totally unreasonable to cut all of them if you have at least two Liliana postboard I think. I don't know how other people board but I've always cut all my removal except Liliana postboard when playing Team America against ANT. Can be slow at times but if you have some early game disruption you will have enough time to cast it. I think from the ANT side we should probably just play our petals and LEDs out to play around discard game 2. If you see Abrupt Decay then maybe consider not playing artifact mana out game 3. Then again maybe still play them out because as a two of they aren't going to see them that often and they will probably shuffle them away a lot with ponder and brainstorm+fetchland since abrupt decay is pretty bad a lot of the time against ANT.

[iamajellydonut]

Question: In the event that you do run a Top in the sideboard, when do you board it in? Also, when do you board the one in the main out?

[Tom T]

Question: In the event that you do run a Top in the sideboard, when do you board it in? Also, when do you board the one in the main out?

Top is better in grindy games vs things like blue control. And against discard you can build your mana by dropping lands and artifacts. You board them out if speed becomes an issue, like, for instance the combo mirror.

Also, you can do all kinds of cool things with the Top. For instance you can go of with an Infernal Tutor-crack-LED and have another tutor on top floating in case your tutor is countered. You can float a Flusterstorm in the mirror. Also, with Top in play you can generate a lot of extra storm for minimal mana compared to chaining Infernal Tutors. Draw a card with Top in your upkeep and before you cast cantrips you can use the Top so you draw the Top again (get it? :P). So you can chain Top-Cantrip-Top-Cantrip etc for (1) or (U). Pretty nifty. Next to that you can use LED-mana to cast business-spells, like the Brainstorm+GitaxianProbe+AdNauseam interaction. ALSOOO, in case you shit your pants with Ad Nauseam and have to stop due to life-issues (like, you have the black mana and tutor, but lack a LED), you can use Top as a black-mana cantrip. Furthermore, postboard you can use redundant Chain of Vapor as a cantrip by bouncing the Top in response on it's activation.

It feels a bit like playing DDFT (for dummies) sometimes

[sawatarix]

The more we talk about how awesome Senseis Divining Top is the more i love it !
Damn have to get more of them. 2 In the maindeck could be solid.
Chain of Vapour on top in resp to the top-draw is decent, reminds me at good old miracle days i had during grand prix strassbourg when i repealed my own top.It was so much value.

@TomT: i would keep top in the storm mirror game simply because the games go very disruptive until no one has cards.

[Togores]

^ u start getting to the right direction :D

[Tom T]

The more we talk about how awesome Senseis Divining Top is the more i love it !
Damn have to get more of them. 2 In the maindeck could be solid.
Chain of Vapour on top in resp to the top-draw is decent, reminds me at good old miracle days i had during grand prix strassbourg when i repealed my own top.It was so much value.

@TomT: i would keep top in the storm mirror game simply because the games go very disruptive until no one has cards.

I play a configuration with 2 SDT, 1 Preordain and the 7th discard spell. The second SDT used to be a Grim Tutor and it hurt to take him out.
Just had a game where I could make a natural Tendrils line by chaining Tops. Pretty awesome!

I was mostly referring to the Sneak&Show, Reanimator, Elves, Dredge and High Tide match-up. Here the Top is just too slow most of the time. However, one could argue that Dredge and Reanimator play discard so you could keep them in.
And Storm mirrors are usually pretty grindy if both players can't win turn 1/2. But I wouldn't board in the full 3 SDT in the match-up. Just one, maybe two.

[.Ix]

Decided to try ANT because I really couldn't believe I lost to JUND with TES last time. Wastelands really cramped my style, and I absolutely love Sensei in combo, so I thought I'd give it a chance. I went 3-0-1 to place first. The report is from memory so it's probably not completely accurate.

List:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

1 Badlands
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bloodstained Mire

SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Sensei's Divining Top

It was a small 8-man with 4 rounds.

RD1: Sneak Show

G1: T1 Duress takes his Show and Tell. He ponders. T2 Duress takes his Sneak Attack. He ponders. T3 Therapy takes his Grisel. T4 he plays Sneak Attack. I cast Ad Nauseam.

-1 SDT -1 Swamp -1 preordain -2 Burning Wish -1 Cabal Therapy +3 Xantid +2 Flusterstorm +1 Thoughtseize

G2: T1 he plays a land and passes. I Duress, he brainstorms, I take a FOW. He plays fetch and passes. I Therapy for 2 Griselbrands, he has a Swan Song. Haha! I tap cantrip for 2 turns. (I thought the chance of Showing a Grisel was very low at this point). He Shows Emrakul after two turns, but I PIF him to death.

2-0 in games
1-0 in matches

RD2: Affinity

G1: He drops stuff, I storm out

-3 Duress -1 Sensei +1 Void Snare +1 Chalice +1 Thoughtseize +1 Decay

G2: He mulls to 5, I keep a cantrippy 7. He plays Canonist T2, I cantrip for several turns, I find a decay but he has another Canonist. I die.

G3: He draws nothing, I win

4-1 in games
2-0 in matches

RD3: My own Maverick deck piloted by a friend

G1: He wins the roll and Zeniths for Arbor on T1. My hand is a loose keep, island, cantrips, Duress, Therapy, and Petal. I decide to crack petal to blind Therapy naming Thalia. Of course he has Teeg in hand. I dig for the Burning wish but I never find it.

-3 Duress -1 Sensei +1 Chain of Vapor +1 Void Snare +1 Thoughtseize +1 Decay

G2: I start with a fetch and pass. He plays Chalice of the Void (WTF, I did not put this in the deck!) on zero , plays a land and a Deathrite. I slap myself because I didn't drop the artifacts in hand. I cantrip some more. He drops Chalice for 1. He has no Wastelands and a very slow clock, but I'm at the mercy of my topdecks. I toss a Chain of Vapor EOT just to help get Threshold. He drops Thalia. I cry inside. I topdeck Burning Wish!! I cast it for Massacre and pass the turn. He plays a Knight. I Massacre on my turn and pass. He plays Scavenging Ooze and Dark Depths, and EOT I decay the Chalice for 1. I Void Snare the Chalice for 0, casting Cabal Ritual into Ad Nauseam with 8 cards in the graveyard against an Ooze with G untapped. AND I was facing a Marit Lage activation EOT. Whew!

We ID because we're the top 2 players anyway. We would have faced the same two opponents, and I thought there was too much hate from his side to win game 3. We play it out anyway.

G3: He drops a Chalice for 0 and a Hierarch. I cantrip. He has nothing. I keep cantripping. He plays a Knight. EOT I play Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Ad Nauseam tapping an Island and a black source. I find the Void Snare and kill him on my turn.

Still an ID, but I won the games so they count.
6-2 in games
2-0-1 in matches

RD 4: Deadguy Ale

G1: He goes first and Inquisitions me. He takes the Brainstorm over SDT!! I don't know why he did that but I was VERY happy about it. I play SDT and my Petal. I sculpt my hand while he has little pressure. He hits me with 2 Hymns, taking 2 cabal Rituals, a Tendrils, and a Dark Ritual. After a little top spinning, I'm at 7 life with 4 lands and a petal. I draw the Ad Nauseam and hit exactly what i need: LED, PIF, Petal, and Dark Ritual.


SB:-3 Duress +1 SDT +1 Chain +1 Void Snare


G2: He starts with discard again. Somehow I land a Top T1 again. I think I topdecked it. I also drop the LED and Petal. He Inquisitions me. I duress. He topdecks Hymn and casts it. I spin EOT and pass. He Vindicates the LED, and I crack it to spin the Top for no reason, and I end up discarding my Ponder. Absolutely pathetic misplay, but I'm still good because my I have Cabal Ritual and IT on top. I realize that without misplaying that LED Crack, I wouldn't have gone Hellbent. He has SFM active with Batterskull in hand, and his Pain Seers have taken me to something like 15. My Turn, I Cabal Ritual, tap the Top to draw the IT, PIF and kill him.

8-2 in games
3-0-1 in matches

I took first, and I had a lot of fun with ANT this time. I'm very happy with the maindeck Burning Wishes at the moment. I was goldfishing with 4 IT and 1 LDV (I don't have Grim Tutor) and I had too many games where I couldn't find the Tutor to kill, so I tried the Burning Wish and it was actually decent, particularly for beating Teeg and other annoying things Game 1. Basics and Sensei are the reasons I really wanted to try ANT, and they absolutely proved themselves. I only have 3 Delta, but I think it's fine. People have started to play Pithing Needle on Delta as well, so that's a kind of a bonus. I'm new to ANT guys, so go easy on me.