Lim-Dûl's Vault seems ok if you want to go quick-combo route. Since our #2 gameplan is to grind I don't think it fits into the typical shell because it's card disadvantage.
I played misdirection in the past when abrupt decay was everywhere. I don't think it's as needed at this current moment, but it's not a terrible card. It did get a little worse when we started shaving griffins for eternal scourge.
Sylvan Library kind of similar story to misdirection. It was great when miracles was around, but with all the delver everywhere it's hard to justify losing the life. If you want general card selection a single Mirri's Guile might be a good idea. More 1-drops might be good for the deck.
Leo, as you said, is just okay. Way better in the miracles meta. Now he's a jace-type threat that we play after stabilizing to lock down the game. Might be possible to cut him, but he's so powerful that feels a little wrong. Meta dependent most likely.
Hi all, miracles player here. I've been having a lot of trouble beating the two food chain players in my meta (I know that food chain is definitely favored in the matchup). They're usually on the ballista plan but sometimes switch it up and go emrakul/tidespout. The matchup just feels awful, and i'm looking for some advise about how to correctly disrupt the food chain plan. I just don't know what to do. Even the best case scenario, food chain being off the board with DRS's being exiled immediate and using verdict to stick the griffons / eldrazi into the graveyard isn't a hard lock, as my friends have murderous cut to delve the griffons out. They just use it on their own strix or whatever, and as the delve is part of the cost... the griffons go back to exile.
It just feels like even with azcanta, jtms, and counterbalance firing on all cylinders, i'm getting out card advantaged and my sideboard disruption doesn't help. The only time i'm able to win games is if they get mana screwed early, or don't have a removal spell and mentor runs away with the game. I don't want the only way I can convincingly win to be when my opponents deck isn't working as intended. What are some sideboard cards you guys hate to see in the matchup? And what are some of the best ways to disrupt the deck aside from keeping food chain from resolving/countering maniuplate fate?
Thanks!!
I'm toying with Food Chain lists as a deck to play around with (my main deck is Lands, but sometimes it's nice to mix it up).
I'm currently sitting on 3 Underground Sea and 1 Trop. I've seen lists running anywhere from 1-3 Trop + 1 Bayou. How big a deal is Trop #2-3 in this manabase?
That depends the list. Some list are almost excusively UB, splashing only green for DRS activation, food chain and Leo while other rely on green for decay or shardless agent. Some lists may run more trops than ugs for "budget reasons" or card availability.
I think three ugs, 2 trop is right in a Ballista list. In a shardless list maybe it should be the other way around? I like the bayou as a dedicated DRS land.
@Kyuuri: the whole point of food chain combo is that's a hard combo to hate out and that griffins are hard to get rid of. So there's not really any sideboard cards that dramaticly turns the MU.
I think i would take out swords to plowshares for all the red blasts and a wear // tear. Maybe it's right to switch out one or two FOWs for flusterstorms. The most important card to fight over is manipulate fate.
Last edited by JackaBo; 02-08-2018 at 05:13 PM.
Hi guys, I have been playing legacy for a little over a year and decided to start building food chain. I have been testing with deck online, but getting the cards to play it in paper is $$$, espcually the mana base (i already have the fows).
Do you think this deck can work with 1 USea, 1 trop and 1 bayou + basics? If so, does he list have room for a back to basics? I feel that the card is super well positioned right now and is under played.
Thanks!
You could probably do something like this as long as you're careful with your fetching:Originally Posted by caio402
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
I think the main is pretty tight, but Back to Basics would be a decent sideboard slot to try out. Let us know what you think of it!
Hi welcome and grats on your choice of deck! I think you should definitly try with basics - maybe up the fetch count to get more color selection. The biggest problem i think is that forest is such an awkward land in the deck and i would absolutely not want to play more than one forest. That may mean that you want to avoid fetching the green duals so that you can access them from any fetch when you're ready to play your food chain.
You should check your local paper meta. Our local meta is flooded with basics so B2B wouldnt do anything. Paper metas can be like that.
The best part with playing 20 lands is the ability to always board out Forest and play 19 lands against non-Wasteland decks. :)
Small report from a small 40-person tournament yesterday. (6 rounds, t8)
Main (60)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Fierce Empath
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Scourge
4 Food Chain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Ponder
Sideboard (15)
1 Planar Void
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Collective Brutality
Round 1 VS DNT.
Game 1:
I flood the board with shardless and strixes, at one point I have 2 shardless, 2 strixes, 2 DRS, and 2 Griffins out, against 2 revokers on FC.
1–0
Game 2:
I Board in a LOT of removal and take out some of my legendaries and 2 fows. (usually keep 2 against random cataclysm etc)
I combo him out turn three.
2–0
1–0–0
Round 2 VS Dredge.
Game 1:
I keep a turn one DRS on the play, he goes to discard. I try to remove troll turn 2 but get punished by street wraith. Luckily, i go Chain > Exile DRS > Cast Drs (one black floating) > Exile DRS (UUB in pool) > Cast Baleful > Cast Griffin > Empath WIN.
1-0
Game 2:
Keep 0 land on the draw on a mull to 6, but have surgical, deathrite, fow, blue card and planar void in hand. Scry a card to bottom, draw land, slam Planar Void and win easily.
2-0
2–0–0
Round 3 VS 4C Delver.
Game 1:
I fetch a lot of basics and manage to get 2 Griffins info play on turn 3. I win with them.
1-0
Game 2:
I take out some slow cards like manipulate and ponder for removals.
I mull to 6, my opp Thoughtseizes me and takes Chain over Strix in fear of combo. I deploy Strix to trade with delver and win due to that trade.
2-0
3–0–0
Round 2 VS Eldrazi.
Game 1:
I play some strixes and then som Griffins. His deck is setup bad to beat those.
1-0
Game 2:
I include some extra removal as always.
I have a good hand that can fetch 2 basics and combo on turn 4. My opp playes card that does nothing against me like Chalice and Endless Ones, so I win.
2-0
4–0–0
ID 4–1–0
ID 4–2–0
With 4 wins and 2 draws I am first seeded in t8.
Quarterfinals VS DNT (with blue for TNN and some flusters etc)
Game 1:
Weird deck that plays blue but taps out for Thalia. I take the chance to combo when he locked himself out.
1-0
Game 2:
Grindfest where I race TNN with Jitte with 2 Griffins and 2 DRS. Have one crazy turn where I have zero cards in hand, top deck Shardless, into Baleful, draw New Shardless, cascade into second Strix, into Fatal Push on newly cast mom.
2-0
Semifinals VS OMNI
Game 1:
Mull to 6, keep DRS and FOW but never see a second land or fetch. Lose.
0-1
Game 2:
I board in all discards etc, see none of them any games though.
Combo on turn 3, he only has force to stop my combo and can’t SNT his own Emrakul without Omni since i always empath my own emrakul to hand turn 2-3.
1-1
Game 3:
Tight game where he is put into a spot where he can OMNI > Emrakul, but I also get emrakul out, have 8 permanents and 16 life, so it’s not enough for him. He draws cunning wish of the top so he can win with Fireminds Foresight.
1-2
All and all a good day with only 2-0 wins and a 3d place.
Until next time!
Nice report. A few questions:
How much has Tasigur been a liability vs Karakas? Why Tasi over Angler or even Tombstalker? Do you find yourself being able to activate it often? I'm still trying to decide which delve threat I want to include.
How about the 1 Leovold? Is it impactful enough to just have 1 copy and no ways to reliably find it?
What non-GY matchups do you bring Planar Void in vs since it gimps your own DRS?
I see you are now on the 19 land plan. Any reason you moved away from your preferred 20?
Do you bring Carpet in vs any blue deck or only vs mana-denial stuff like Delver?
Cheers!
Hi! Alright, some quick answers:
I think tasigur and angler are on pair, i like that tasigur is cheaper. We have more 4cc than dnt, therefore tasigur does more. IF you have a lot of Karakas, I would switch. The ability have been relevant maybe every 5-7th game I've cast it.
Im close to cutting Leo, but I think one is ok as a get you-card sometimes. (as the oneoff fatal push against mother of runes g1)
Planar void works with drs, the card triggers graveyard, so it can still ramp and shock people if timed. I included it to try it against control with snappys and kolaghans as well as combo but never got the chance.
19 lands is fine with the 2 Ponder, never had an issue with the mana in any of my games so I will stay like this for the time being.
Carpet against all blue decks that are not combo, against control it's sweet as the 5th drs IMO.
Good to see a streamlined Ballista build doing well. Congrats!
sorry for the noob question, but I don't understand why a lot of list play plague in the sideboard.
Isn't deludge better as mass removal? I understand that you don't want to kill your own creatures, but sometimes -1/-1 does nothing.
Just saying, also because I see plague played only by food chain players, but I don't see a strict relationship with the deck.
E Plague is a targeted sweeper for a combo deck that wants creatures on board. Deluge is great in other decks, mediocre in ours. I'd only play it in a heavy-eldrazi meta.
Plague is less necessary since ballista has made this deck great against tiny creatures, but it's still an awesome card and in my SB specifically it was my anti-TNN choice.
I think people underrate it. I bring it in all the time. It's great vs Mentor Miracles, and even passable vs Eldrazi since it makes blocking way easier.
yep, everything makes sense. Basically, the problem is TNN, so plague is good. My concern is D&T: this is another matchup where deluge shines imo, plague can help against thalia and mum, but it can't kill revoker if you name human, can't kill prelate etc etc etc. Ballista helps too, but sweepers are keys card against D&T.
I will try it, maybe a split 1/1 deluge/plague.
I think if you're on Ballista version D&T is basically a bye unless you get really unlucky. I wouldn't alter a SB only for that MU. Also, vs a board of thalia/mom/revoker, plague still kills whatever you need. Kill the mom/thalia to use a decay or whatever on revoker later, or kill the revoker to immediately combo off. Still very flexible.
ty for your answers, I will try plague. I'm not so experienced with this deck, that's why I have tons of doubts :D
I'd like to discuss the Hostage Takers that are appearing in people's lists. Is this a dedicated Sneak n Show card, or are you bringing it in against fair decks, too? I've been playing a Venser, Shaper Savant in this spot, as I think it's a little more versatile:
- You can cast it instant speed, which is a big deal now that my beloved TurboDepths is a Deck to Beat. The Marit Lage decks are playing more answers to Edict now; Lands is starting to be on the Safekeeper/Excavator plan postboard, and Depths plays Arbor/Factory, Safekeepers, and occasionally Bitterblossom. So having another instant speed card for Marit Lage seems like it could infinitesimally help in those matchups.
- Venser can bounce Omniscience if your opponent Show and Tells it in. Sure, Hostage Taker can get the Emrakul or Griselbrand forever, but they'll still draw cards off Griselbrand whether you put in Hostage Taker or Venser. If you have the combo assembled, living the dream and casting their dude feels win-more. I'd rather err on the side of caution and play the card that deals with anything they Show and Tell in.
I'm curious to hear other applications for Hostage Taker. Getting an Angler with it is probably big game, but making your deck clunkier against Delver makes me nervous. I don't have experience with the card, though, so perhaps my fears are unfounded.
Thanks, y'all.
I tried out Hostage Taker just cause the Shardless player here said he liked it. I have yet to cast it.
Theoretically speaking, Hostage Taker has the following applications:
- exiling a Marit Lage
- Stealing delve creatures / goyf / snap / eldrazi / etc
- removing chalice/bridge/sphere of resistance / etc
Obv Venser does similar things and more, but Hostage Taker solves the problem a bit more permanently.
My issue with both of these cards is they're 4 mana so it's very situational when you want to bring them in.
Picked the deck back up and went 4-3 at a local 2k this past weekend. The day was going great and I picked up my 2nd & 3rd losses in the final rounds. Here's the list:
1 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Scourge
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Trinket Mage
3 Walking Ballista
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Food Chain
Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
2 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hostage Taker
2 Hydroblast
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
Before the tournament started I changed a couple of things. The maindeck had 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Relic and I decided to play 2 Thoughtseize to fight combo. I usually run into Show & Tell and Storm at this store's bigger events. I don't regret it, but I'm going to go back to the Sylvan and Relic. I also changed 2 Collective Brutality in the sideboard for 2 more Thoughtseizes. I regret this change because 5/7 rounds I wanted to side in Brutality. Results oriented aside, I think I would prefer to play the Brutalities moving forward. They're more versatile and I don't feel the Thoughtseizes improve the combo matchups enough to play over Brutality.
I don't have any notes but these were my matchups
Round 1: Burn 0-2 (Wish I had Brutality!!!)
Round 2: UR Delver (2-1)
Round 3: RW Painter/Depths/Torpor Orb combo? (2-1)
This deck was strange. I liked it though. It had Torpor Orb & the 1/3 with the same effect with Dreadknoughts and the 9/9 I think. He had Urborg in his deck but when I surgicaled him I didn't see any Hexmages. There wasn't really any removal so blocking a 20/20 with Misthollow Griffin & eating it with Deathrite every turn is a good plan
Round 4: Grixis Delver (2-1)
Round 5: Infect (2-0)
Round 6: Mono Red Sneak (0-2)
Round 7: Grixis Delver (1-2)
I brought in the Hostage takers on the play against Grixis Delver (and never drew them so no opinions). I was bummed I didn't get to test them out more, but we'll see this week how they do! There are lots of creature decks at my weeklies. Will report back :)
Shardless
BUG Delver
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