Hello! I believe this is indeed a rabbit hole. The first question i have is, do you run 8 cantrips? If not start with that.Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
So IMO this deck is best versus midrange, control and non blue fair decks, where the game is slow enough for you to assemble combo and you're not very weak to chalice.
The deck is also strong to weenie decks thanks to ballistas.
It's also decent against delver post board where you play the survive game using strixes and removals and just win with CA. Your combo isnt necessary here so no point in rusning it.
Against fast combo we're weaker. So in a combo heavy metagame maybe you want to be more combo-y OR you want to be fairer and more control-y (with more discard and cheap counters). So in a unfair meta the speed approach may be right but i believe the control route is better or just playing another deck.
That being said, I'm of course interested to hear about your testing.
Fast combo is indeed what I'm worried about, but then again its hard to compete with Storm and Dredge, eh?
I've been trying to run between 10 and 12 cantrips (preordain being the 2 to 4 of), 7 to 8 dorks, at least 4 of some combination of Misthollow Griffin amd Eternal Scourge (somewhere between 5 and 7 with Powder build) 4 Food Chain some number of Walking Ballista and maybe Trinket Mage (Mage is strictly there for Force of Will) 4 Force of Will some number of disrupting shoal (when you're going for a slow roll combo build, FoW mental misstep seems decent) 4 Powders and my mana base which I can't even recall off the top of my head.
My guess? My problem is that the only other creature-based midrange combo deck I'm used to (Modern Vizier Company) is relatively fast in terms of comboing out in its format, and I may have to get used to fighting in Legacy again.
Sounds very rough for FC. Maybe you should just switch to bug delver since you have a bunch of the cards. Playing food chain is s ton of fun. But so is playing hymn!
My meta is full of midrange value-decks. Perfect for foodchain. My latest three games at the LGS are 4-0, 3-1 and today 4-0 again, beating elves, stoneblade, alluren and maverick.
Last edited by JackaBo; 09-14-2017 at 04:34 PM.
HI guys,
I won a tournament of 130 people with food chain, this is my list:
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=24708
Btw i havent the best swiss for our deck:
R1: burn Win
R2: ant Win
R3: ant Win
R4: sneak and show Win
R5: 4c leovold Draw
R6: 4c leovold Win
R7: 4c leovold Lose
R8: 4c leovold Win
Congrats! How was the new Lili? I'm also curious about your sideboard. Do you prefer Trap to Flusterstorm? Against decks like Sneak 'n' Show, I've found Trap to be tough to cast for less than four. And how were the Hydroblasts? Are you bringing in any against Czech Pile (for K-Command and opposing Pyroblasts on your Griffins and Manipulate Fate)?
Thx man,
-New lili wars amazing, in this meta where lack of decay can be powerfull for many reasons: first thing this bitch is a real finisher in attrition matchup, they have to kill her. +1 kill a lot things like strix. Btw i love his -2 Where you can bring back ballista ora another piece of combo.
-trap isnt good vs show, but is better against storm
-i always loves hydro, and my friends know it.......... i pull it for my side any time i can do. And yes hydro protect our play vs Reb of 4c control and hit a lot of things: sneak, pif, reb, command, blood moon
The list is an evolution of marius husman list, i talked with him a lot in last ovino event, and i lose in last round for male top8
It looks like at the moment there are three planeswalkers battling for a slot in the deck.
I see Nissa, Vital Force as a strictly upgrade, she does different things as Liliana but her -2 could bring back a card, not only a creature from the graveyard to hand. I know, 5 mana are more than 3 and you don't get to kill tiny creatures upping her but Nissa's emblem (in both cases pretty hard to achieve) is superior.
The big boi Garruk Relentless: I do like him. One mana less than Nissa, he was a house for Bug Delver when Miracles was around and could still shine against Czech Pile-ish decks. He makes tokens / bolt a creature and once flipped it acts better as a Worldly Tutor, still producing deathtouch tokens (did you say Gurmag Angler?).
What are your opinions on them? I wish I could play JTMS but Pyroblasts and REB are always around...
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Yes, is right but with jace you are fillering their target of rebs. Then they have make hard decision
Are you saying the JTMS will always be the best choice, as REBs and Pyroblasts would target MF / Strix / whatever cantrip?
Care to elaborate?
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Congrats! 4 tough first rounds indeed. 4 easy rounds after that, that's karma! I guess the double Thoughtseize main was sweet in this meta.
Lillians TLH sounds fun!
That's an interesting idea, overloading Pyroblasts. But I think sinking three mana into something only to have it answered for one mana is bad enough (think TNN, Leovold); by adding Jace, that's another four-mana investment (in addition to Griffins) that is easily answered. Plus we have a ton of in-hand card advantage already with Strixes, Manipulate Fates, Sylvan Library (if you run it), etc. I think I'd rather a planeswalker that more directly affects the board, be it Lili LH or Garruk.
Another 4-0 (8-1 in games) for me last night, beating Dredge, Punishing Maverick, Lands, and Grixis Delver (no Pyros, but three TNNs and at least one Snapcaster) and pushing my sanctioned match record to 21-4-1 (ID). I tried -1 Flusterstorm, +1 Lili LH, and I must say that the planeswalker was pretty good. I only brought it in against Punishing Maverick, but it did a fair bit of work there, even in the face of an active Jitte (because the creature dies to a state-based action when the opponent untaps if he decides to pump, which he did). I opted not to bring it in against my Grixis opponent because I knew his list had no Pyromancers, and I thought three TNNs plus Snap-Bolt would be able to convincingly handle Lili. Not sure if that's correct, but if it were Pyromancer Grixis, Lili would definitely be in.
I think this deck is secretly tier 1, at least in the paper meta. It has great matchups against the best decks (Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, Lands, and DnT). I've found my Elves matchup to be slightly favorable because I run three sweepers and more spot removal, but others may disagree. I haven't had problems with Stoneforge decks either because sometimes you can just race Batterskull with nine flying power. Sneak and Show and Storm are still very hard (but sometimes winnable) matchups. If you can get lucky and steal game 1, you have a real chance at winning the match.
My main question about the Sneak and Show matchup is whether you leave in the combo. I've read and heard conflicting opinions on this and have tried both approaches, winning some and losing some. Being a bad control deck is sometimes good enough, as Deathrite and Leovold can do decent work. But sometimes they cast Show and Tell, you put in Food Chain, untap, and combo off. I don't have enough reps in the Sneak and Show matchup using the leave-in-the-combo approach to know how consistently that happens. Any opinions?
Thanks!
Imho i prefer to cut combo, i have to side in a lot and i have 2 vendilion to bring in.........
Agree on your MUs and planeswalkers analysis.
On the S&S matchup: Leovold is one of our most valuable resources, it shuts down not only the cantrips but the mighty Grisel too and you should fight for it on the stack and once on board. Removals are usually boarded out but the combo should stay in, since as you mentioned a Food Chain that comes into play thanks to S&T should easily be game.
The Trinket should help to fetch for a Needle.
This is how I'd board:
-2 Push
-2 Decay
-1 Ooze
-1 Scourge
-1 Verdant
+1 Clique
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Needle
+2 Tseize
+2 Diabolic Edict
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
Me too. Versus Reanimator i like the combo since because they have a hard time beating half combo. Versus show n tell with emrakul half combo doesnt do much more than put on a clock.
I'm actually more afraid of Griselbrand than I am of Emrakul because at least Diabolic Edict can deal with Spaghetti Monster. Having my opponent draw 7-14 cards feels miserable. The risk I see with leaving in the combo is they cast Show and Tell, and you put in Food Chain while they put in Griselbrand. They then draw 7 on your upkeep, you try to cast a creature in order to combo off, they Force it and Time Walk you, then untap and run away with the game. I find it difficult to assume that, after they resolve Show and Tell, you'll have combo in hand AND they won't have Griselbrand or disruption. So from a theorycrafting standpoint, I'm probably in the board-out-the-combo camp, but I don't have enough data to go off of.
For those who leave in the combo, how often would you say you combo off against Sneak 'n' Show?
Congrats for the great performance!
May i just consult you for your sideboarding options against Czech Pile and delver strategies, namely grixis and RUG.
Following your list (i replaced flusterstorms with mindbreak trap cause i think its more suited to my meta) this is what i might do:
Against RUG Delver: +2 edict, +2 flusterstorms, -4 FOW
Against Grixis Delver: +2 Plague, -2 FOW
Against Czech Pile: +2 Hydroblast, +2 Vendillion Clique, -4 FOW
I am not sure if boarding out FOWs is acceptable in fair match-ups, thats my first thought. Anyone please feel free to chime in, thanks!
Made top8 of a five-rounder yesterday, beating Blood Moon Stompy and Elves (nailbiter of a match - mulled to 5 game 3 and got there with Clique and Leovold), then losing to UR Delver (didn't draw removal or Strixes in games 2 and 3), then beating 4C Loam and drawing into top8 for a 6th seed. I then lost to UB Delver.
In game 3 of the quarterfinals, I was at 10 life and had Deathrite and three lands in the face of a flipped Delver and an Angler. My opponent had two cards in hand (one of which was Force, revealed off Delver that turn) and was tapped out when he passed the turn. I drew and had a hand of Manipulate Fate, Leovold, Scourge, Griffin, and Edict. I gambled on my opponent not having another blue card to pitch to Force and cast Edict main phase, just in case he had something like Spell Pierce in hand as his second card. Sadly he kept a Delver in hand and countered my Edict. I then cast Manipulate Fate, exiling the last two Griffins and a redundant Fate, then drew Food Chain. If I got to untap unimpeded, I was reasonably certain I'd win the game. Unfortunately my hellbent opponent ripped a Fatal Push, leaving me dead to a running Strix + removal draw, which didn't come. His next draw step was a land, so if those were reversed, I'd've probably advanced to the semis. Oh well.
I feel like I'm losing to Delver more than I should be and am wondering if it's my approach to the matchup. UR is, in my opinion, the hardest to compete with. This has been my sideboard plan so far - please tell me if you'd do something different:
My list
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Scourge
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Trinket Mage
3 Walking Ballista
4 Food Chain
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Force of Will
// sideboard //
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
(I'll most likely be swapping out the second Flusterstorm for a different piece of interaction.)
UR Delver
-4 FoW, -1 Trinket Mage
+1 E.E., +1 Deluge (not sure about this one), +2 Edict, +1 Flusterstorm
Grixis Delver
-4 FoW, -1 Trinket Mage
+1 E.E., +1 Deluge, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Edict, +1 Flusterstorm
BUG Delver
-4 FoW, -1 Trinket Mage
+1 E.E., +1 Deluge, +2 Edict, +1 Flusterstorm
Should I be leaving in some number of Forces? Sometimes countering a threat, especially when you get to pitch a Griffin, buys a lot of time. Either that or I replace my second Flusterstorm with, say, a third Decay or Push. Some have suggested a miser's Carpet of Flowers, which I have yet to try. If it's in your opener, it must be insane, but drawing it late must feel bad. If I played Carpet, I'd probably board it in for a fetchland. I think having one more interactive card for the early game would help me breathe easier against the three-creature openers they can have. Perhaps I also play around Daze more often than I should, which may be a leak in my game. I do it less when I'm on the play, but it's still probably too much.
Thanks, y'all.
I'd shave a Food Chain in all of those (save BUG maybe and with your lost in particular) before I made those cuts especially trinket mage when you're brining in EE. And I wouldn't bring in edict if you saw Young Pyro.
I always bring in the full amount of Golgari Charm/Deluge against those decks as you have such a higher chance of winning if you can deal with their threats/true-name and make it to the late game grind where you take over.
Lands: 19
1 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
Spells: 23
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
3 Manipulate Fate
1 Murderous Cut
2 Ponder
Creatures: 18
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Scourge
3 Misthollow Griffin
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Walking Ballista
Sideboard:
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique
Pretty happy with my current list. Snapcasters have been amazing, and Murderous cut comes in handy against junk like angler, as well as being able to re-exile dead griffins.
Yeah you dont need to combo off versus delver. You only need to resolve strixes and manipulate fate and not die in the process. That's why I leave in the forces. The card disadvantage usually dont matter you'll catch up eventually. Versus UR i would bring in the flusterstorms, versus grixis more sweepers.
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