[Deck] Food Chain Combo

[jin]

Tidespout Tyrant seems like great tech.
How can his deck function without Fierce Empaths though? Does he just go Griffin beatdown more often than not? What's the point of Food Chain if you can't search for and play a fatty?

With Bouncers like the Djinn and Venser, and cantrips like Wall of Blossom and Clique, he can cycle through his deck when he has infinite mana. He can draw whatever he wants.

[FTW]

With Bouncers like the Djinn and Venser, and cantrips like Wall of Blossom and Clique, he can cycle through his deck when he has infinite mana. He can draw whatever he wants.

He can cycle once he has Tidespout, but with 2 Tidespout + 1 Emrakul, how does he get there in the first place while assembling Food Chain+Griffin? I guess the cantrips must prove to be sufficient if he's doing so well. I'm just surprised.

[jin]

He can cycle once he has Tidespout, but with 2 Tidespout + 1 Emrakul, how does he get there in the first place while assembling Food Chain+Griffin? I guess the cantrips must prove to be sufficient if he's doing so well. I'm just surprised.

The priority is still setting up Food Chain and Griffin. Venser and Karakas could do some cycling.

Tidespout alone can win the game with infinite mana. I think maybe he is just diversifying the win-cons. Instead of the tutor and Emrakul, now he is playing Tidespout and Emrakul. It is probably more of a beat down deck than normal, since the Djinn is a 5/5

[nevilshute]

Absolutely stoked to wake up and learn that Jonathan Job top-4'd SCGLA! A big congratulations :)

Very interesting take on the deck. I join in with the people curious about some of his choices. Particularily the omission of Fierce Empath seems a bit odd. I really like the Tyrant though.

Don't know if Jonathan frequents this thread but I sure would love a tournament report of some sort :) I will be putting up links to his on-camera matches in the primer.

[kingtk3]

I would like to congratulate with Jonathan too.

I also think that we can finally transcend to the established forum: please admins!

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[DragoFireheart]

More creature bouncing is pure genius. Watch the prices of Griffins and Food Chains go up.

[Holden1669]

After I saw the Aluren list with Shardless Agent at SCG Seattle I put together a Shardless list for Food Chain but didn't play any matches with it. I didn't like how it seemed parallel and not really more powerful than my two win conditions of Food Chain or Natural Order. But now that I've seen Job's list and played a few matches with it I really like the choices that he made. And they are all internally consistent as well.

Playing only the Food Chain combo and not including Natural Order/Show and Tell, including Shardless Agent, excluding Empath, and playing two Tidespouts instead of more Emrakuls gives him a more coherent deck that is better at playing the Plan B win with flying 3/3s approach. It isn't as dependent on either resolving OR protecting a Food Chain. This is especially relevant in a world where BUG Delver (with discard, counter magic, and Abrupt Decay) is one of the most popular decks.

1. With Shardless you are more likely to have multiple creatures (and especially 3 cmc or higher creatures to immediately allow casting Griffin) in play when you resolve Food Chain. Shardless is also good as a value creature that opponents don't really feel the need to kill, leaving it on the board for chaining.

2. Without Natural Order you are less likely to draw cards that don't help your main win conditions. And it makes it easier for you to play Clique and Venser, which are strong.

3. If you do resolve a Food Chain and they have the Abrupt Decay (or similar), if your plan is to play infinite Griffins, Empath and then Emrakul then you don't get to do that. If you have a Shardless or two, a mana dork, a Clique, whatever, then you have a decent chance of being able to respond to the Abrupt Decay by removing a few guys and getting a Tidespout. You can semi-reasonably cast Tidespout even without Food Chain or pitch it to FoW.

4. If you have a Tidespout in play and are recurring Griffins then you bounce their entire board and can draw your deck with one of the Wall of Blossoms if you still need to for some reason. You really don't need Emrakul here most of the time.

5. This tournament shows how strong Griffin is just by itself. As one of the commentators pointed out a 4cc flyer who keeps coming back is a very difficult problem to solve in Legacy. Also it pitches to FoW/Misdirection for value.

6. Basically, Empath is a bad card unless you were just about to combo. It almost always just went to get the same creature but it really doesn't do enough. Venser and Clique let you play Magic and are strong cards, while Empath is not. Also the fact that they have Flash is very relevant. And Venser is another way to protect from Abrupt Decay (if only temporarily, but that may be all you need).

So yeah, I tend to get too caught up in how a deck is being built and I keep cards because they seem crucial. Empath, in particular, was a sacred cow for me and I had mostly stopped playing the deck because Empath and Natural Order made it clunky. It's pretty awesome, I think, that Job had this result to shake up our thinking.

[HammafistRoob]

It's kinda cute to exile Griffins with Deathrite and be able to recast them. Is there a way to squeeze more Shamans in there?

[nevilshute]

It's kinda cute to exile Griffins with Deathrite and be able to recast them. Is there a way to squeeze more Shamans in there?

I've played lists with 4 shamans to reasonable success. My current list runs a 3/2 split of Deathrite Shaman and Noble Hierarch.

[nevilshute]

After I saw the Aluren list with Shardless Agent at SCG Seattle I put together a Shardless list for Food Chain but didn't play any matches with it. I didn't like how it seemed parallel and not really more powerful than my two win conditions of Food Chain or Natural Order. But now that I've seen Job's list and played a few matches with it I really like the choices that he made. And they are all internally consistent as well.

Playing only the Food Chain combo and not including Natural Order/Show and Tell, including Shardless Agent, excluding Empath, and playing two Tidespouts instead of more Emrakuls gives him a more coherent deck that is better at playing the Plan B win with flying 3/3s approach. It isn't as dependent on either resolving OR protecting a Food Chain. This is especially relevant in a world where BUG Delver (with discard, counter magic, and Abrupt Decay) is one of the most popular decks.

1. With Shardless you are more likely to have multiple creatures (and especially 3 cmc or higher creatures to immediately allow casting Griffin) in play when you resolve Food Chain. Shardless is also good as a value creature that opponents don't really feel the need to kill, leaving it on the board for chaining.

2. Without Natural Order you are less likely to draw cards that don't help your main win conditions. And it makes it easier for you to play Clique and Venser, which are strong.

3. If you do resolve a Food Chain and they have the Abrupt Decay (or similar), if your plan is to play infinite Griffins, Empath and then Emrakul then you don't get to do that. If you have a Shardless or two, a mana dork, a Clique, whatever, then you have a decent chance of being able to respond to the Abrupt Decay by removing a few guys and getting a Tidespout. You can semi-reasonably cast Tidespout even without Food Chain or pitch it to FoW.

4. If you have a Tidespout in play and are recurring Griffins then you bounce their entire board and can draw your deck with one of the Wall of Blossoms if you still need to for some reason. You really don't need Emrakul here most of the time.

5. This tournament shows how strong Griffin is just by itself. As one of the commentators pointed out a 4cc flyer who keeps coming back is a very difficult problem to solve in Legacy. Also it pitches to FoW/Misdirection for value.

6. Basically, Empath is a bad card unless you were just about to combo. It almost always just went to get the same creature but it really doesn't do enough. Venser and Clique let you play Magic and are strong cards, while Empath is not. Also the fact that they have Flash is very relevant. And Venser is another way to protect from Abrupt Decay (if only temporarily, but that may be all you need).

So yeah, I tend to get too caught up in how a deck is being built and I keep cards because they seem crucial. Empath, in particular, was a sacred cow for me and I had mostly stopped playing the deck because Empath and Natural Order made it clunky. It's pretty awesome, I think, that Job had this result to shake up our thinking.

I think the main difference is, how combo-oriented you want your deck to be as opposed to playing the more grindy creature beats plan. Clearly, Fierce Empath as a 1/1 for is very weak. What he does do, is win the game for you once you go infinite. I don't personally like a build that is likely to leave you without a way to win from going infinite due to too few win cons. Think it depends a lot on playstyle and temperament.

[KevinSrednoselac]

Its funny that I was "dissed" on for the cadcade idea and the top 8 version played shardless agent. Spooky

[nedleeds]

You truly have your revenge. Congrats.

[MaximumC]

Here's John's list, according to SCG here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65228

4 Shardless Agent
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Wall of Blossoms
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
Lands (21)

3 Forest
4 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas

Spells (17)

4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Manipulate Fate

Sideboard

2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Null Rod
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Obstinate Baloth
1 Misdirection
4 Submerge

I think what John managed to do is to seamlessly merge a midrange-aggro plan with the Food Chain combo. The only dead card in the maindeck (absent the combo) is Food Chain.

Gone is the Holy Trinity of Empath+Aethersnipe+Grislebrand, apparently because each of those cards is not super great on its own. In its place, he has Wall of Blossoms and Shardless Agent. The only targets for Shardless in the deck are Blossoms (draw cards), brainstorm (draw cards), Sylvan Library (draw cards), Manipulate Fate (draw Griffins), Deathrite Shaman (regrow Griffins) and Noble Hierarch (the booby prize). So, Shardless usually gives you a card or two, sometimes a permanent as well. He synergizes with the kind of counterspell suite this deck wants to run (FoW and MisD). I also am really impressed with the combination of Manipulate Fate + Shardless; in late game, he can probably control his cascade with great precision (need to dig for an answer? Manipulate away non-brainstorm cascade targets!)

Thing is, if he assembles the combo, he has to have one of 3 cards in his deck in hand to win on the spot, and some of them are conditional. Sure, if it has Tyrant or Venser + Wall of Blossoms, Agent, or Clique he can draw his deck. But he has no way of getting these cards except by hard drawing them. I guess I can't argue with success, but this seems like a fragile engine to me.

[JPoJohnson]

More creature bouncing is pure genius. Watch the prices of Griffins and Food Chains go up.

Maybe if this was a modern deck those cards would skyrocket overnight...

[Megadeus]

Maybe if this was a modern deck those cards would skyrocket overnight...

Well Food Chains are 15 bucks now

edit: more like 12

[Poron]

these lists do want 4x Natural Order to be competitive

[kingtk3]

And Now we are established! Good job everyone, no pun intended :-)

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Razorwynd]

these lists do want 4x Natural Order to be competitive

These (^) posts want 4x more explanation to considered intelligent

[Hanzalot]

Sure, if it has Tyrant or Venser + Wall of Blossoms, Agent, or Clique he can draw his deck. But he has no way of getting these cards except by hard drawing them. I guess I can't argue with success, but this seems like a fragile engine to me.

Isn't Tidespout Tyrant needed to draw his deck? Venser + Wall / Agent / Clique only lets him draw one extra card, right? (by bouncing them and replaying them once).

Hans

[nevilshute]

Added video content to section XIII of the primer, enjoy :)