Pretty sure that's a mull on the draw. There are too many draws Grixis has where you get completely blown out.Originally Posted by grizzlybears
Hi, I am new to this deck and need some guide :)
I encountered such an opening hand vs Grixis Delver , 3rd game, I am on the draw:
1 fetch , 1 Noble Hierarch , 2 fatal push, 1 Manipulate Fate , 1 Ballista
Should I keep or mull ?
Thanks in advance
That's a 6-card hand, so since you're already on the draw and get to scry that's a pretty easy keep to me. You have an accelerant, early interaction, and the better parts of the combo. I can't imagine what else you're looking for other than lands, and you get a drawstep + scry to find those.
I agree with Kaono. What more could you ask for from a five card hand? Sad truth is that in a delver-infested meta food chain is a pretty bad choice. The slots the combo uses woul be better served as interactive cards and the combo isnt even needed to beat grixis.
Yeah, I'm very excited about the new squee. An Eternal Scourge that is also immune to counter magic, destroy effects and discard effects is huge. The color doesn't matter in a deck full of small creatures when you're comboing it with Food Chain anyways.
There is literally no way get rid of this Squee.
Being able to tutor both pieces of the combo (Ballista & Squee) using Recruiter is just gravy. Recruiter can tutor just about every other creature in the deck as well if you're playing a more grindy match.
I will take my current 4 Walking Ballista list and modify it as follows as soon as this card comes out...
+1 Squee, the Immortal
-1 Eternal Scourge
+4 Imperial Recruiter
-2 Walking Ballista
-1 Manipulate Fate
-1 Misdirection
I recommend others try something similar.
Last edited by Captain Hammer; 03-12-2018 at 10:33 PM.
What's your manabase change Hammer to support the red splash?
If DRS got banned there would be a reason to abandon black and explore red. Not sure i like taking the deck into 4c territory though. Since we're so clunky a stable manabase is key.
Thanks a lot for @NeckBird and @Kaono.
Actually , I missed 1 more card -- decay -- there, so it was a 7 cards hand, it is my fault.
But this fault leaded to both of your replies which enlightened me :)
For 7 cards on draw, "1 fetch + 1 mana dork + other good spells" is too risky to keep,
while with 1 scry, that should have a shot.
BTW, in the real game, I kept the hand after struggling for several minitues, and then lost to 'bolt + waste land' very quickly.
Deathrite isn’t going to get banned. It’s doesn’t make games boring or cause for 10 minute turns like Top did.
However, I don’t see why Deathrite needs to be banned for Squee to see play. Squee is a card to combo Food Chain with and Food Chain can generate red mana to cast it. Even as 1 of that can be tutored up with Fate and is literally impossible to get rid of, it’s a viable addition to the deck.
Yeah I thought about that too, but the value of being able to cast from graveyard is heavily tempered by only able to cast it with Food Chain (or two DRS activations)
Without Food Chain just playing Eternal Scourge and attacking and eating him with DRS if he dies is a valid beatdown line.
Squee makes Food Chain better as a card, but I'm not sure if it makes Food Chain better as a deck.
That's my concern too. New Squee is best as guaranteed way to kickstart the chain, but having to eat something on board to do so seems lackluster. I think the double R warrants a manabase change if we want to try him out. I like the idea of a punishing dack shell. I'm not sure it's better, but it's certainly fun.
So a few of my friends and I have been talking about brewing an RG prison/food chain list which would utilize the new squee. It takes a different approach from BUG food chain, so not sure if it warrants it's own thread or not. Basically the deck eschews countermagic and discard spells to go for chalice of the void and blood moon, and has a possibly faster way to combo by using sol lands, spirit guides, and lotus petals. As was already mentioned imperial recruiter can get both squee and walking ballista, which is sort of what led us down this path in the first place.
This is the Squee-Chain list we came up with so far.
2 new squee
4 eternal scourge
4 imperial recruiter
4 walking ballista
4 food chain
4 elvish spirit guide
4 lotus petal
4 chalice of the void
2 sylvan library
3 blood moon
1 Magus of the Moon
3 commune with the gods
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
2 taiga
4 wooded foothills
1 bloodstained mire
1 windswept heath
3 forest
3 mountain
Sideboard cards (We haven't finalized quanitites, just considered what the deck probably needs)
Choke
Pyrokinesis
Ancient Grudge
Sulfur elementalorKozilek's return
Trinisphere
Surgical extraction or Leyline of the Void
Sorcerous Spyglass
Other cards we've discussed for inclusion in the mainboard:
Serum Powder (Potentially can lead to turn 1 food chain combos by exiling squee/eternal scourge from your first hand)
Bloodbraid Elf (Just a value creature, can cascade into food chain which is nice, shardless agent couldn't do that and it always bothered me about that build)
Chandra Torch of Defiance (Draw value, exile effect works well with squee/eternal scourge, can deal with problem creatures, alt win-con)
new Karn planeswalker (same rationale as Chandra, easier to cast but less useful 'ultimate' ability)
I'm interested to hear some community feedback or other ideas to incorporate. This list started off as kind of a joke but sounded better and better as we kept talking about cards that would work well in it, so I'm excited to try it out when the set gets released.
Is there a more up-to-date primer or matchup guide for the deck somewhere? I'm quite interested in giving the deck a try since I already have a lot of the cards but I'm totally clueless about how the different matchups tend to shape up.
Not really but you can read the last pages, from 2017 or so. There's quite a few lists, discussions on card choices and sideboarding.
My general thought is that it doesnt do so well with all the delvers running around. It was better during miracle era and even when piles were trying to outgrind each other.
Interesting. I feel like the deck can have a solid game against Delver decks, what with having basics, Abrupt Decays, and Baleful Strixes, all of which are really strong against Delver decks. You can sideboard into a reasonable control deck, and have answers to a a lot of the threats that Delver strategies have.
What's your typical SB plan against Delvers?
Hi Guys,
Few weeks ago I asked this group for help building a mana base for Food Chain using just 3 non-basic lands (1 USea, 1 Bayou, 1 Trop). Earlier this week I played my 1st paper event with the deck and would like to share my tournament report and ask few questions.
Key take aways & questions:
- Mana base worked well. There was only one situation in which I got color screwed, in which my opponent destroyed my trop island and I had put my forest into the graveyard with search for azcanta earlier in the game
- Burn seems to be a very bad match-up. Maybe adding collective brutality or jitte would help the match-up. I would appreciate your inputs on this!
- I realized I have no clue how to SB with this deck. Any thoughts on my SB strategy I used?
- Ballista was very helpful in a ton of situations in the mid game helping me to clear the board. I was very impressed.
My list was: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/995836#paper
Creatures (19)
3 Walking Ballista
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Eternal Scourge
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Trinket Mage
3 Misthollow Griffin
1Gurmag Angler
Spells (16)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Force of Will
Enchantments (6)
1Search for Azcanta
1Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain
Lands (19)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
1 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Plague
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Massacre Wurm
Round 1 – (vs. David on GB Illusionary Mask / Phyrexian Dreadnought Combo) – win 2-1
On game one I kept a greedy one land hand + brainstorm. I didn’t find my 2nd land until turn 6 or 7. Meanwhile, my opponent played a bunch of lands and had couple deathrite shaman, which closed the game before I could reassemble. Second game I was able to thoughtseize my opponent couple time on the early turns and combined with Leovold, restricted a lot his options. I won the game by beating down with Leovold + Ballista. I don’t have good notes on Game 3, but remember being in control most of the game and winning by combining off with Ballista.
SB plan: -2 FoW, -1 search, -1 Sylvan Library; + 3 thoughtseize, + 1 Massacre Wurm
Round 2 (vs. Ivan on Burn) – Loss 0-2
In game one, I mull to 5 and keep a and with 2 FOW + 2 blue cards and land (my opponent mull to 6). My opponent also had a bad hand with no creatures so this game dragged enough to the point that I would won if I had top deck Food Chain in 3-4 turns. It didn’t happened and my opponent killed. In the 2nd game my opponent had a very strong draw and I was done by turn 3 or 4.
SB Plan: +3 flusterstorm, - 2 FoW, -1 Search of azcanta
Round 3 (vs. Billy on Maverik) – Win 2-0
Not much to say here. My opponent got mana screwed in both games and I used my removal on his mana dorks. Despite having slow draws and few misplays I was able to close the game with no major issues.
- 1 FoW, -2 Leovold, + back to basics, +Massacre wurm, + engineered plague
Round 4 (vs. Adam on RW Painter) Win 2-0
On Game 1 I was able to control the game. My opponent was in a blood moon strategy for game one which didn’t have much effect against my mana base, the only scary moment was when he tried to cast Ethersworn Canonist, but I had force of will in hand. Game 2 I was under a lot of pressure during most of the game. My opponent had a smuggler’s copter out on turn one and started pressuring my life total an threatening to combo off with painter in couple occasions. Luckily, I played my outs and was able to combo to win the game when I was at 1 life.
SB Plan: +2 Surgical, +3 thoughtseize, +1 Faerie Macabre, -2 leovold, -3 baleful strix, -1 gurmag
I'm curious as to how the Search for Azcanta was for you. Given that a lot of the deck is creatures, did you find it effective? Or are you mostly playing it for a ramp spell/draw smoothing card?
It was my 1st time playing the deck. I wasn't able to flip search for azcanta in any of my games and I sideboarded it out in couple of my matches given how slow the card is. It didn't impress me, but I will give it one more try.
Yeah, I've gone back through and read the last few hundred posts. Was great to read some of those reports!
So here's a more particular question for everyone in this thread. Do you run Ballistae or Shardless/Empath? Have you tried both configurations - if so, how would you compare them? Which do you prefer and why?
Thanks in advance for letting me rehash old discussions. I'm building the deck now (kinda bored of all the t1 decks) so am super curious about this one major divide that I see in decklists.
I personally prefer the Ballista version, though I haven't played the Shardless version for a number of years. I think one of the strengths the deck got from Ballista is not having to run dead cards like Emrakul and Fierce Empath. Ballista is an OK-strong card depending on the matchup. Grixis Delver? Perfectly fine--2 mana removal spell for Pyromancer and unflipped Delvers, kills Lavamancers that are often in that deck's SB, or just a cheap blocker if you need to chump an Angler.
I think Shardless is better against control decks as it gets you card advantage, whereas Ballista can be a 1-for-1 or a slow card. Neither option particularly improves the deck's poor fast combo matchup. Since the deck can already do reasonably well against slower decks with engines like Manipulate Fate and ways to exile/recycle the Griffins/Scourge, I'd rather hedge towards Ballistas and less dead cards.
I've only ever played the Ballista version in tournaments, but I've won too many games off Walking Ballista X=2 clutching a grindy slugfest.
I'd say in a perfect combo environment the versions will be about equal, but it's in the margins that Walking Ballista really shines.
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