From Kennen’s primer:
Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...nd-Depths.htmlMana denial is not the main plan. The goal of the deck is to get the opponent hellbent without you yourself dying. Only then are we comfortable sacrificing two lands to summon Marit Lage.
Last edited by streetMage; 04-08-2018 at 01:30 PM.
Whatever man, whatever. Discussing this won't contribute to the development of the deck.
Talking about contributing to the development of the deck. I recently tried Heaven // Earth and had a blast playing it. Discarding it when drawn to hand or Entombing when needed worked like a charm. However it took some time to set-up. Also Deathrite Shaman is shit to handle with it. Think i'll stick to Punishing Fire and Massacre
Burning Wish might be an interesting option for this deck. I had a blast playing it in RG Lands and Wishing for Devastating Dreams (smallpox's red twin). It's double red, but at least BW makes it an optional choice, you could get something else too - like loam or Hull Breach. The black manabase enables also Toxic Deluge or Last Rites as wishtargets, pretty powerful cards.
A Devastating Dreams with Tabernacle in play would surely get rid of a True Name. Not a bad idea.
Likely some other sorceries to utilize as well. Loam, Reverent Silence, Massacre, Innocent Blood, Pulverize, Dreadbore, Deluge...
I think that type of card plays better than trying to force a Dark Lands build.
This is the most challenging part of a deck like this, at least for me personally. I can't decide which engine is better: Entomb, Burning Wish, Faithless Looting, Gamble, Crop Rotation, Living Wish...there are a plethora of engines available for a grindy jund-colored control deck. Entomb is obviously the fastest and most efficient, but also the most susceptible to Deathrite Shaman/sideboarded grave hate. Burning Wish suffers from being slower and keeps things happening only on your turn, which can be played around. Gamble really needs a more streamlined, linear approach to always hit, which is what R/G lands favor. Crop Rotation is the same, a focused tutor that really only works for specific lands, mostly the DD/Stage combo. Faithless Looting is incredible at filtering cards, gaining velocity, and working with the graveyard in a great way that Loam decks love. It is however underpowered compared to something like Entomb, which faces the same weakness but is faster and gets *exactly* what you need. Living Wish only gets creatures or lands, which can be powerful with Dark Depths/Hexmage/Stage/utility dude, but the basic premise of the deck really doesn't want a slow tutor for lands or an even slower tutor for creatures (which it doesn't really want anyways.)
And that's just deciding on the core beyond 3-4x Loam...sheesh.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Dark Lands was what people called the RG Lands deck that splashed black for Abrupt Decay. But yeah let's do deck development instead of arguing about Loam, specifically against Miracles.
Basic lands, Jace, Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage, Monastery Mentor, maindeck Back to Basics, and it only gets worse after sideboard with Surgical Extraction (even my opponent knows the power of Loam). So what's the plan against a deck that blanks a lot of our cards? You can't just let Jace go. If you get into a back and forth of +2 Jace -2 from PFire, +2 Jace -2 from PFire, etc. you're going to get destroyed by Mentor & Prowess tokens. The +20 life from Swords doesn't go nearly as far enough against Mentor. You absolutely have to have a secondary win con because they will Extract your Loams after sideboard.
I've been considering Choke, Flashfires, Boil, Dread of Night, Hero's Downfall, Dreadbore, and Pyroblast. They're all counterable but if you could get one of the permanents to stick it could really help. I usually want spells that cost around 1-2 cmc so Dread of Night has been leading that race. Without the tokens Smallpox reaches Mentor and takes away a win con. I have 2 main Abrupt Decay and 1 in the side that comes in for Counterbalance and Back to Basics but hits Mentor in a pinch. But there's also part of me that wants to side in my 1 Raven's Crime & 3 Hymn to Tourach to destroy their hand and just go for a fast Marit Lage before they can really do anything with Jace or Mentor.
Attack the hand with Raven's Crime engine and Hymn to Tourach as you've said... From my sideboard, I bring in Chains of Mephistopheles, Garruk Relentless, Pithing Needle, Maelstrom Pulse, Ensnaring Bridge and Duress.
Possible Secondary wincons: Molten Vortex, Bitterblossom, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Garruk Relentless, Cursed Scroll
Primary Stabilizers: Liliana of the Veil, Ensnaring Bridge
Of the cards you listed I think Dread of Night and Pyroblast are good since they can be used against other decks.
played this list for fun and went 4-1 with it:
1 Nether Spirit
4 Mox Diamond
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Exploration
2 Punishing Fire
4 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Smallpox
1 Raven's Crime
3 Life from the Loam
30 Lands
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Maze of Ith
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Polluted Delta
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Barren Moor
// 15 Sideboard
1 Ashen Rider
2 Drop of Honey
1 Coffin Purge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
2 Innocent Blood
2 Hymn to Tourach
2-0 Aluren
2-0 Miracles
0-2 Thalia Eldrazi Stompy
2-1 BUG Shadow
2-0 Tezzerator (Grixis)
I realized a few things:
- Exploration was meh most of the time. HOWEVER, it drew out my opponents Force of Will everytime and I got the 2-for1. It's better in a build with maindeck Ghost Quarter and/or Cabal Pit. We definitely can't use Exploration to its full potential here, more hinging on the pox plan. I would rather shred their hand with Raven's Crime than making infinite land drops.
- Mirri's Guile was pretty fine, dropping it t1 to smooth out your draws for the rest of the game
- 4 Crop Rotation in the 75 is definitely correct
- 3 Loams felt correct, I don't really want a 4th. Especially postboard
- Raven's Crime is pure gas
- you don't need 2 Tabernacles for this deck
- I did like the Sideboard, Hymn to Tourach and Drop of Honey especially. Possible cuts are 2 Innocent Blood, Surgial Extraction, Ashen Rider. Maybe another Raven's Crime,Thoughtseize, Massacre/Toxic Deluge instead. Ob Nixilis is an experiment for grindy matchups, probably too expensive.
...gonna try -2 Exploration +2 Liliana of the Veil next time although I didn't miss Lilly. Might be better off with more card selection or even straight up discard.
Last edited by Alexeezay; 04-24-2018 at 06:19 AM.
I was thinking it would be good to have some sort of recurring permanent effect, like a PW. Liliana is one effect, or something like Garruk Relentless. I wouldn't be opposed to something like 1x Pernicious Deed also.
Post-board against grave hate what's your plan? Just hold on long enough to get Marit Lage/Ob Nix online?
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
From my own experience :
- i was not convinced by mirri's guile at first but now i can't live without 3 of them. The best turn 1 we can dream of and priceless with loam.
- i agree with you about exploration
- Kennen Haas said that he put only 3 crop rotation MD because it is awfull when it get countered. If your meta is not too much U-control then the 4th one is definitively a possibility.
- I was not convinced by drop of honey when i tried it.
- Elves is the only matchup where you really need the 2nd Tabernacle (but it shines there)
- I run 2 backlash in the side to deal with marit lage. Quite fun and efficient even if i will need to test it more (not many land decks in my meta). Did some one ever tried it ?
Backlash seems like a nice trump vs. Marit Lage, but ONLY vs Marit. it's completely useless otherwise because it can't act as removal...unfortunately.
Also, I don't know if you would want to rely on holding up a 3-drop vs Lands/Turbo Depths. I'm not sold and would probably run Diabolic Edict over it.
I am not sold on it yet and would run it only against a Marit Lage heavy meta of course. I agree that diabolic edict is more versatile but backlash makes you win on the spot. Another interesting point IMHO is : if the match goes to game 3, the opponent will have no choice but try to play around it (mana denial or alternate kill) and it will slow him down. This bluff can be very helpfull and may give us the time we need because we are usually more slow.
Can you give some details on your matchup? What was your game plan? What did you side in/out? I've been considering going down to 2-3 Loams against Miracles and diversifying my graveyard cards completely just to avoid getting blown out by Surgical Extraction. I'm not sure how that will effect Raven's Crime and Flame Jab, though. I haven't gotten to try out Dread of Night yet so how do you handle Mentor? I've been thinking of trading my Hymns for Thoughtseizes just to get a look at their hand. It's a tough deck to get hellbent and would like to know if they're actually holding a Swords to Plowshares when I go to create a 20/20.
My gameplan vs Miracles was basically Raven's Crime, alongside Hymn to Tourach and Smallpox. They can't hold Swords to Plowshares, or they lose the rest of their lands/threats.
I'm only playing 3 Loams and considering boarding out 1, but board out Maze of Ith and Crop Rotation first.
Bring in enchantment removal, discard spells and planeswalkers.
I'm interested in piloting this deck and have all the components EXCEPT The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Is there a viable work around that doesn't totally nerf this deck? Opinions / suggestions / advice appreciated!
I feel like this deck gets way better now with both DRS and Probe gone.
Attacking mana bases is stronger, fewer mana dorks to make Small pox more effective, graveyard cards like Spirit, Fires, and Crime can stick around easier, slow down T1 combo or hide our countermeasures...
I like it.
Ok, so I'm trying this deck on Mtgo right now. Unfortunately...disastrous Bugs with Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil ruined my league.
Smallpox either just doesn't get rid of a creature, or it crashes during the discard. The Lily sacrifice ability is also bugged I think. So watch out until they fix it :)
I will post results and thoughts when the Bugs are fixed.
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