Jund Depths

[Manroe]

Hey All,

I am making a new legacy deck, and I like to be unique, so this is my take on Punishing Pox!
I admit I am not a pro deckbuilder, but I would appreciate input on card choices and land base building. Without further ado:

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Marsh Flats
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Graven Cairns
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nether Spirit
3 Punishing Fire
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Raven's Crime
1 Nether Void
2 Innocent Blood

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Dystopia
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge


EDIT: Fixed the Links!

[Erdvermampfa]

[MD.Ghost]

Maybe 1-2 Entomb for a Toolbox and cut Chandra (she is bad...). With green for Life from the Loam, Decay and Deed you can also add 1 Garruk Relentless.

Sideboard:
Toxic fights (mostly) small creature hordes, so why you need ratched bomb in a 3 color build? Krosan Grip or Maelstrom Pulse are solid options with green.
I also don't like Spinning Darkness, you have Pox (traditional filled with removal), additional Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decays (and Sideboard Toxic).

EDIT: Something like this ;) ? Doesn't include a playset Liliana etc. so enough room for some flexible slots

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nether Spirit
4 Punishing Fire
1 Nether Void
2 Innocent Blood
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Mox Diamond
1 Entomb
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga

SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Bitterblossom

[Manroe]

Maybe 1-2 Entomb for a Toolbox and cut Chandra (she is bad...). With green for Life from the Loam, Decay and Deed you can also add 1 Garruk Relentless.

Sideboard:
Toxic fights (mostly) small creature hordes, so why you need ratched bomb in a 3 color build? Krosan Grip or Maelstrom Pulse are solid options with green.
I also don't like Spinning Darkness, you have Pox (traditional filled with removal), additional Punishing Fire and Abrupt Decays (and Sideboard Toxic).

EDIT: Something like this ;) ? Doesn't include a playset Liliana etc. so enough room for some flexible slots

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nether Spirit
4 Punishing Fire
1 Nether Void
2 Innocent Blood
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Mox Diamond
1 Entomb
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga

SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Bitterblossom

I agree, and I believe all of your points are valid for the most part. The ratchet bombs were just an idea to deal with Jace mostly, but Pulse is probably just better. Also, I really like bitterblossom here, good call. Is it good enough to be in the main or does punishing fire serve essentially the same purpose? Garruk does also seem really good here. One idea I was thinking about was Noetic Scales, This card seems fantastic in this deck. What do ya think?

[KazinMtg]

This is actually a pretty sweet idea. I don't have a whole lot of input other than this deck should be running the full set of lili. Liliana is already insane in pox. Being able to discard your pfire to her +1 every turn is just bonkers, and needs to happen as often as possible imo.

Cute idea though, let us know how it does in testing!

[klaus]

I worked from MD Ghost's list.
Here is what I did:

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nether Spirit
4 Punishing Fire
3 Innocent Blood
2 Gamble
34

2 Mox Diamond
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
26

Changes:
-1 Garruk (simply too expensive)
-1 Wasteland (27 mana sources, counting Mox, alongside 2 LftL are overkill even in a deck like Pox. I might be wrong about cutting 1 Wasteland, but in a 3 color deck without cantrips, colorless mana sources can be greedy.)
-2 Therapy (there aren't enough dudes in this deck to make it a 2 for 1)
-1 Entomb (--> Gamble)
-1 Nether Void (CMC 4 is too much for a deck rocking Small Pox imo)
-1 Taiga (--> Badlands // 13 remaining green sources are more than enough for 6 green spells total in the MD)

+1 Inquisition (more turn 1 plays are needed and Therapy is a crappy T1 play)
+1 Liliana (yep, she's that good)
+1 LftL (this engine makes the deck tick)
+2 Gamble (might be a danger of cool things, but does look sexy on paper. Other than Entomb, it gives you more outs to more scenarios)
+1 Innocent Blood
+1 Badlands

[Manroe]

I worked from MD Ghost's list.
Here is what I did:

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Nether Spirit
4 Punishing Fire
3 Innocent Blood
2 Gamble
34

2 Mox Diamond
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
26

Changes:
-1 Garruk (simply too expensive)
-1 Wasteland (27 mana sources, counting Mox, alongside 2 LftL are overkill even in a deck like Pox. I might be wrong about cutting 1 Wasteland, but in a 3 color deck without cantrips, colorless mana sources can be greedy.)
-2 Therapy (there aren't enough dudes in this deck to make it a 2 for 1)
-1 Entomb (--> Gamble)
-1 Nether Void (CMC 4 is too much for a deck rocking Small Pox imo)
-1 Taiga (--> Badlands // 13 remaining green sources are more than enough for 6 green spells total in the MD)

+1 Inquisition (more turn 1 plays are needed and Therapy is a crappy T1 play)
+1 Liliana (yep, she's that good)
+1 LftL (this engine makes the deck tick)
+2 Gamble (might be a danger of cool things, but does look sexy on paper. Other than Entomb, it gives you more outs to more scenarios)
+1 Innocent Blood
+1 Badlands

I think Gamble is a great idea. I have been testing, though not exactly thoroughly, but the mana has yet to be an issue. EDIT: What about a 1 of Hero's Downfall for walkers?

[longshot0086]

I fiddled around with a similar list when young pyromancer came out. I liked how it played but it struggled to close out games. A couple things I considered if you want to test.

Firstly, since you have red, young pyromancer is significantly stronger than nether spirit and allows you to use a playset. It works great with both small pox and punishing fire, but will not build an army as fast as the u/r versions.

Also, consider a burning wish package.

Another consideration, try the dark depths combo, especially if you have gamble/entomb and loams allow you to dredge it out with at least some consistency.

With regards to hero's downfall, 3 mana is too much, and dreadbore is probably better for that role. The instant speed is not really giving you value. The best option would probably just be pithing needle, serves multiple purposes and stops jace just fine.

With noetic scales, any reason to use that over ensnaring bridge if that's what your looking for? The scales don't seem like a good answer to sneak attack.

I like the deck, and would like to follow the thread.

[Umbranex]

I love the idea behind this deck. I used to play my own brew of pox and had a lot of success with it. Unfortunately that was mostly testing as there are almost no legacy tournaments around me and that was back before I started going to any big events such as GPs and Opens.

One suggestion that I have is to take out the nether spirit and find room for 4 (card)bloodghast(/card)s. That card was an absolute house in the pox deck I ran. It was always great to discard to smallpox and short of eating a swords it is extremely difficult for a deck to deal with as it will just keep coming back. With the inclusion of bloodghast you can also change the inquisitions to a set of (card)Cabal Therapy(/card) as they are easy to flash back and arguably the best discard spell (even though most consider the best to by hymn I tend to give the nod to Therapy as it is a true scalpel to take apart an opponents hand where hymn is more of a hammer).

I also suggest upping liliana to 4. She is an absolute house against so many decks and between ghast, fires, and even therapy (due to FB) you are all but guaranteed to gain value over your opponent.

I would also think that testing the LFtL spots as Crucible would be worthwhile. LFtL is undoubtedly powerful but so is crucible. This of course is probably more personal preference than anything as my list ran crucible due to not having the green for LFtL and Life has even more value with the addition of the ghasts and the therapies.

(card)The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale(/card) can be good to keep opposing creatures in check since we will be attacking their land base and will help us since Ghasts cant block if they replace the spirit. It is also easy in this build to simply get rid of it off the board when we want to flood the field with ghasts.

Finally one card that may be a tad too high on the CMC scale for this particular build is (card)Braids, Cabal Minion(/card). I really like her in conjunction with the bloodghast/LftL engine and she will basically form a smokestack that adds a clock (with the benefit of taking out an opponents card on the turn she comes down as opposed to giving them a full turn to deal with it)

These are just a few initial ideas and thoughts. I would really love to see this deck flourish and will continue to watch/contribute to its growth.

edit: I have to respectfully disagree with Klaus... I feel t1 Therapy to still be a very strong play as long as you 1) know the decks and probable builds and 2) know what cards are most threatening to you given a certain hand. This is especially true if going second because even if all you see is a fetch you still have an idea on what deck(s) it could be narrowing down your choices greatly. However it is still decent in the blind. there are a few cards that are played more often than not and even more fringe cards can be blind called if your current hand is weak to them. Granted the t1 play of therapy becomes MUCH stronger when the ghasts are in the deck as they allow the therapy to be reliably flashbacked so even if you whiff you dont lose any real CA and at the same time gain knowledge of the opponents hand and their lines of play to better choose how you play the following turns.

[klaus]

edit: I have to respectfully disagree with Klaus... I feel t1 Therapy to still be a very strong play as long as you 1) know the decks and probable builds and 2) know what cards are most threatening to you given a certain hand. This is especially true if going second because even if all you see is a fetch you still have an idea on what deck(s) it could be narrowing down your choices greatly. However it is still decent in the blind. there are a few cards that are played more often than not and even more fringe cards can be blind called if your current hand is weak to them. Granted the t1 play of therapy becomes MUCH stronger when the ghasts are in the deck as they allow the therapy to be reliably flashbacked so even if you whiff you dont lose any real CA and at the same time gain knowledge of the opponents hand and their lines of play to better choose how you play the following turns.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Therapy is a cool spell, but it requires way more creatures to flash it back than just 4 (Ghasts) and without a timely flashback option I'd favor I. of Kozilek any day.
Tokens are always a nice flashback resource, which is why YP looks nice in conjunction, though I think adding YP+Bloodghasts significantly moves away from the OP's approach - soon enough you'd find yourself boasting Faithless Lootings and whoops: different deck.
The only close-to-creatureless archetype Therapies may be OK in is Combo. However they serve a completely different role here, as they are supposed to clear the way for the kill. Any incarnation of Pox goes a much grindier route (in fact there are few grindier decks out there).

[Umbranex]

Don't get me wrong, I believe Therapy is a cool spell, but it requires way more creatures to flash it back than just 4 (Ghasts) and without a timely flashback option I'd favor I. of Kozilek any day.
Tokens are always a nice flashback resource, which is why YP looks nice in conjunction, though I think adding YP+Bloodghasts significantly moves away from the OP's approach - soon enough you'd find yourself boasting Faithless Lootings and whoops: different deck.
The only close-to-creatureless archetype Therapies may be OK in is Combo. However they serve a completely different role here, as they are supposed to clear the way for the kill. Any incarnation of Pox goes a much grindier route (in fact there are few grindier decks out there).

I agree with the point that Therapy gets much weaker with less creatures and this deck, even with four ghasts, would be very light on creatures. I still think it warrants testing though as LftL serves as a way to dig for ghasts and hitting therapies with the dredge is very powerful with the ghasts. There are also two Factories which while suboptimal are still an option to FB the Therapies in a pinch. Of course I could be thinking from the experiences of having played with ghasts and Lingering Souls to help power the FB of therapies so there is always that. It is possible that Inquisition would better suite the needs of the deck but the interactions of LftL, ghast, and Therapy are so potentially powerful that I think they are worth testing at least.

-------------------------------------------
two additional suggestions would be
1)to cut one factory for a phyrexian tower to use with the bloodghasts. This would allow some ramping with the reusable ghasts as well as giving a way for the ghasts to dodge swords as well as the occasional terminus from miracles.
2)cutting the three hymns (even though I absolutely LOVE hymn) for three funeral charms. These are much weaker discard spells but have the advantage of being instant (to use during draw step if opponent is hellbent) as well as doubling as removal against problem creatures (especially bob since you want to win through attrition). I love hymn but I feel Therapy is easier to control and utilize to fullest potential in any situation and Liliana and smallpox both are great at clearing hands as well. The problem I see this deck having is an over abundance of discard which can become absolutely horrid mid to late game if all you draw is more discard. Charm helps alleviate that by serving multiple purposes as well as being an instant speed discard if needed.

[Manroe]

I love the idea behind this deck. I used to play my own brew of pox and had a lot of success with it. Unfortunately that was mostly testing as there are almost no legacy tournaments around me and that was back before I started going to any big events such as GPs and Opens.

One suggestion that I have is to take out the nether spirit and find room for 4 (card)bloodghast(/card)s. That card was an absolute house in the pox deck I ran. It was always great to discard to smallpox and short of eating a swords it is extremely difficult for a deck to deal with as it will just keep coming back. With the inclusion of bloodghast you can also change the inquisitions to a set of (card)Cabal Therapy(/card) as they are easy to flash back and arguably the best discard spell (even though most consider the best to by hymn I tend to give the nod to Therapy as it is a true scalpel to take apart an opponents hand where hymn is more of a hammer).

I also suggest upping liliana to 4. She is an absolute house against so many decks and between ghast, fires, and even therapy (due to FB) you are all but guaranteed to gain value over your opponent.

I would also think that testing the LFtL spots as Crucible would be worthwhile. LFtL is undoubtedly powerful but so is crucible. This of course is probably more personal preference than anything as my list ran crucible due to not having the green for LFtL and Life has even more value with the addition of the ghasts and the therapies.

(card)The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale(/card) can be good to keep opposing creatures in check since we will be attacking their land base and will help us since Ghasts cant block if they replace the spirit. It is also easy in this build to simply get rid of it off the board when we want to flood the field with ghasts.

Finally one card that may be a tad too high on the CMC scale for this particular build is (card)Braids, Cabal Minion(/card). I really like her in conjunction with the bloodghast/LftL engine and she will basically form a smokestack that adds a clock (with the benefit of taking out an opponents card on the turn she comes down as opposed to giving them a full turn to deal with it)

These are just a few initial ideas and thoughts. I would really love to see this deck flourish and will continue to watch/contribute to its growth.

edit: I have to respectfully disagree with Klaus... I feel t1 Therapy to still be a very strong play as long as you 1) know the decks and probable builds and 2) know what cards are most threatening to you given a certain hand. This is especially true if going second because even if all you see is a fetch you still have an idea on what deck(s) it could be narrowing down your choices greatly. However it is still decent in the blind. there are a few cards that are played more often than not and even more fringe cards can be blind called if your current hand is weak to them. Granted the t1 play of therapy becomes MUCH stronger when the ghasts are in the deck as they allow the therapy to be reliably flashbacked so even if you whiff you dont lose any real CA and at the same time gain knowledge of the opponents hand and their lines of play to better choose how you play the following turns.

In thjis particular build, using LftL to get Punishing Fires in the GY is awesome, and I wouldn't replace the loams. I like the bloodghasts and Braids ideas, but I'm unsure what to drop for ghast? (Maybe Sinkhole?)

[Umbranex]

In thjis particular build, using LftL to get Punishing Fires in the GY is awesome, and I wouldn't replace the loams. I like the bloodghasts and Braids ideas, but I'm unsure what to drop for ghast? (Maybe Sinkhole?)

Maybe its because Im tired but I dont see sinkhole in your list but that would definitely be a candidate to cut (although I do love the card). I would take out the nether spirit since the ghasts serve the same role but more efficiently in this deck. From your original list I would also cut the chandras. I have to agree that I feel like they are just a little too weak for this deck (although I may very well be wrong on this... how have they tested for you?)

From the list posted by ghost I would test it cutting the spirit and the tops. SDT is a very strong card but I believe it is much weaker in this deck than others. since you are on the plan to dredge with LftL quite a bit checking the top three doesnt help very much. If you want to keep them I would try cutting one P Fire and one innocent blood. You have quite a bit of removal already between Pfires, bloods, LotV, and pox so losing these two wont hurt too much. Also even though P Fire is an engine of control you can basically search it out using the dredging so going to three wont hurt your odds of drawing them by any significant amount.

I would still advocate trying to use therapies in the place of IoKs since the synergy with loam and ghasts are too good to ignore IMO.

[klaus]

So I moved a bit further away from the OP.
Here's what I ended up with for the time being:

4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Life from the Loam (was always happy to see it - core of the deck)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
2 Innocent Blood
4 YP (something Aggro was needed to close games)
4 Bloodghast (flows with IB., LftL, Smallpox, Liliana, nough said)
2 F. Looting (flows with BG, P. Fire, LftL engine)
(36)

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
2 Barren Moor (C/A)

SB:
3 P. Deed (removed from MD, relevant against anything swarm Aggro / permanent-heavy)
3 REB (allrounder in our ever-blue meta)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Innocent Blood (crucial against fast Aggro - Delver/Lackey etc. require cheap removal)
4 Dark Confidant (golden against anything non-Aggro)

Whatch'all think?

[Umbranex]

So I moved a bit further away from the OP.
Here's what I ended up with for the time being:

4 Smallpox
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Life from the Loam (was always happy to see it - core of the deck)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
2 Innocent Blood
4 YP (something Aggro was needed to close games)
4 Bloodghast (flows with IB., LftL, Smallpox, Liliana, nough said)
2 F. Looting (flows with BG, P. Fire, LftL engine)
(36)

3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Swamp
2 Barren Moor (C/A)

SB:
3 P. Deed (removed from MD, relevant against anything swarm Aggro / permanent-heavy)
3 REB (allrounder in our ever-blue meta)
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Innocent Blood (crucial against fast Aggro - Delver/Lackey etc. require cheap removal)
4 Dark Confidant (golden against anything non-Aggro)

Whatch'all think?

I really like this build, especially the addition of the lootings. Those I completely forgot about and are extremely synergistic with this deck. I can see YP getting pretty nutty with this deck as well and does a good job holding off aggro decks by himself. This also gives the ghasts better game agains the 4 StP decks as they have another creature they really HAVE to deal with.

One suggestion I would have to make (again lol) is Therapy over IoK. In this build even more than the OPs version Therapy is a stronger card. you now have the YP engine to increase the odds of FB as well as the increased amount of dredge so Therapies are more likely to be dredged where the IoKs would be dead in their spot. If you dont mind me asking Klaus what is your reasoning behind sticking to IoK in your build?

Also I would change at least one crypt in side for Bojuka Bog. That card takes care of graveyard decks as well and while it is not instant speed as the crypt is it gets better when dredged since you can loam it and in dire straights you can waste it yourself in order to loam it and reuse if need be. In fact I like bog enough that I would consider trying to cut a slot for it MD as it helps against g1 dredge, Mongoose, goyfs, KotR, and opposing Pfire or aggro loam variants.

[klaus]

One suggestion I would have to make (again lol) is Therapy over IoK. In this build even more than the OPs version Therapy is a stronger card. you now have the YP engine to increase the odds of FB as well as the increased amount of dredge so Therapies are more likely to be dredged where the IoKs would be dead in their spot. If you dont mind me asking Klaus what is your reasoning behind sticking to IoK in your build?

Between Smallpoxing and Innocent Blooding your own creatures it's not very likely that you have a creature to flash back with Therapy. This gets more likely as the game progresses, however it's vital to use discard during the first 1-3 turns, which is why I'd rather
Also IoK is much better against Combo (probably our most common weak MU), since you can pick something for sure.

Also I would change at least one crypt in side for Bojuka Bog. That card takes care of graveyard decks as well and while it is not instant speed as the crypt is it gets better when dredged since you can loam it and in dire straights you can waste it yourself in order to loam it and reuse if need be. In fact I like bog enough that I would consider trying to cut a slot for it MD as it helps against g1 dredge, Mongoose, goyfs, KotR, and opposing Pfire or aggro loam variants.

Looking at all the creature hate in the MD I don't see the need to add Bog to improve my game against KotR, Mongoose, Goyf and the likes. Also gy strategies are still on the decline in the wake of all the Shamans and RiPs running around.

[MD.Ghost]

@all: really like the idea and discussion!
(maybe why i also play Nic Fit with Punishing Fire, The Walking Dead and Mono Black Pox, so i knew most spells very well)

@klaus: Faithless Looting is much better than gamble, especially with all the recuring stuff. Good Call!

I rebuild your deck with my own ideas:

// Deck: Punishing Pox (60)

// Lands
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Not sure - lots of opportunities here. As a Walking Dead Player: if you will abuse Bloodghast Undiscovered Paradise is a nice land drop.

// Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Young Pyromancer

Interesting Team, only one will suffer from graveyard hate.

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Faithless Looting
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize

@Liliana, sure you want them all. Without any Mox, Deathrite or Ritual Ramp, you will disrupt your opponent the first turns (and will also suffer from opposing and own wastelands) In this common situations, Liliana in Hand does nothing etc. But sure, the full Playset is also strong enough.
@Cabal Therapy: I play it in most of my deck (also in elves) and can shoot good enough blindly. With Smallpox, Liliana, Life from the Loam and Looting you will always get one in the yard: Every other Discardspell is dead in these situations. Bloodghast and Pyromancer works extremly well with Cabal Therapy. I think 2-3 or even 4 is a good call if you run the Creaturesuite. I added Thoughtseize because i will also catch Sneak Attack (or the Big Bad Boys), Omnitell-Stuff, Batterskull, Moat, Jace etc. Against Aggro Decks you can also switch them out with other hate pieces.
@Life from the Loam, i feel that 3 are too clunky. Maybe we need some more test games.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Innocent Blood
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

@Sideboard: Lots off stuff with 3 colors. We can adapt to every meta. Moved Garruk from main to side but find him very good in control matchups. Switch Tormods Crypt with Surgical Extraction (better vs Combo, if you catch the good stuff) and a single Rakdos Charm. As i said, Sideboard has to many opportunities. So we should focus the creation of the maindeck.

[klaus]

@all

Nice discussion!
I'm pretty sold on Bayou being singleton in a deck boasting merely 5 green spells and 11+ green mana sources in the MD (counting fetch lands).
Garruk is a tough call requiring GG and I don't really view him as a SB card since his applications are quite general. And want to emphasize that CMC4 is likely too high of a casting cost in a deck that makes you sac your own land and a meta full of mana denial and Spell Pierces.
I like Needle and will likely add it as sweet catch-all hate.
Toxic Deluge seems lackluster actually. Golgari Charm will often have the same effect I think. Keep in mind that we already have tons of removal, meaning that the only relevant applications of mass removal will be against decks like DnT, Elves, Goblins etc. which feature a huge amount of x/1 dudes.

[MD.Ghost]

Nice discussion!
I'm pretty sold on Bayou being singleton in a deck boasting merely 5 green spells and 11+ green mana sources in the MD (counting fetch lands).
Garruk is a tough call requiring GG and I don't really view him as a SB card since his applications are quite general. And want to emphasize that CMC4 is likely too high of a casting cost in a deck that makes you sac your own land and a meta full of mana denial and Spell Pierces.
I like Needle and will likely add it as sweet catch-all hate.
Toxic Deluge seems lackluster actually. Golgari Charm will often have the same effect I think. Keep in mind that we already have tons of removal, meaning that the only relevant applications of mass removal will be against decks like DnT, Elves, Goblins etc. which feature a huge amount of x/1 dudes.

@Bayou: Thought about it. Maybe you are right here. As i said, tuning the lands configuration isn't so easy.
@Garruk Relentless: Only 1 Green so easy splashable. Why we can't cast a single 4 drop in games, were we won't max out Smallpox and Wasteland effects against Controlbuilds with a solid mana base. Against Miracles spam the field with dudes between Terminus, Verdict and RIP isn't so bad, especially against Mr. Jace and with some helpfull Punishing Fire Action. Against BUG Variants, Liliana can't defend herself against a Decay. If decks like Walking Dead with only 20 lands can bring a single Koth of the Hammer against Control Decks, we can also bring Garruk. If you need more aggro, Koth maybe is also an option along with 4 Badlands.
@Toxic and Sideboard Slots: Yeah more than enough room for each direction. I also like the Golgari Charm (good against UWR, because you can kill TNN or RIP) or maybe a Maelstrom Pulse, Engineered Explosives etc.

My first test results are solid enough - we have a base to improve the deck idea. But it needs a lot more discussion and gaming.

[Umbranex]

Between Smallpoxing and Innocent Blooding your own creatures it's not very likely that you have a creature to flash back with Therapy. This gets more likely as the game progresses, however it's vital to use discard during the first 1-3 turns, which is why I'd rather
Also IoK is much better against Combo (probably our most common weak MU), since you can pick something for sure.


Looking at all the creature hate in the MD I don't see the need to add Bog to improve my game against KotR, Mongoose, Goyf and the likes. Also gy strategies are still on the decline in the wake of all the Shamans and RiPs running around.

Lol yea I just love Therapy so much I may have blinders on about it (I play it in every deck I can realistically support it in )
I agree about the bog I hadnt taken into account the decline of dredge from RiP but i can def see that. and The deck def has enough creature hate I was mentioning them only because they would also be relevant (even if not a huge deal)

@all: really like the idea and discussion!
(maybe why i also play Nic Fit with Punishing Fire, The Walking Dead and Mono Black Pox, so i knew most spells very well)

@klaus: Faithless Looting is much better than gamble, especially with all the recuring stuff. Good Call!

I rebuild your deck with my own ideas:

// Deck: Punishing Pox (60)

// Lands
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Not sure - lots of opportunities here. As a Walking Dead Player: if you will abuse Bloodghast Undiscovered Paradise is a nice land drop.

// Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Young Pyromancer

Interesting Team, only one will suffer from graveyard hate.

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Faithless Looting
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
2 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize

@Liliana, sure you want them all. Without any Mox, Deathrite or Ritual Ramp, you will disrupt your opponent the first turns (and will also suffer from opposing and own wastelands) In this common situations, Liliana in Hand does nothing etc. But sure, the full Playset is also strong enough.
@Cabal Therapy: I play it in most of my deck (also in elves) and can shoot good enough blindly. With Smallpox, Liliana, Life from the Loam and Looting you will always get one in the yard: Every other Discardspell is dead in these situations. Bloodghast and Pyromancer works extremly well with Cabal Therapy. I think 2-3 or even 4 is a good call if you run the Creaturesuite. I added Thoughtseize because i will also catch Sneak Attack (or the Big Bad Boys), Omnitell-Stuff, Batterskull, Moat, Jace etc. Against Aggro Decks you can also switch them out with other hate pieces.
@Life from the Loam, i feel that 3 are too clunky. Maybe we need some more test games.

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Innocent Blood
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

@Sideboard: Lots off stuff with 3 colors. We can adapt to every meta. Moved Garruk from main to side but find him very good in control matchups. Switch Tormods Crypt with Surgical Extraction (better vs Combo, if you catch the good stuff) and a single Rakdos Charm. As i said, Sideboard has to many opportunities. So we should focus the creation of the maindeck.

I thing that the Paradise isnt needed as you have LftL to recur lands so hitting ghast recursion isnt a problem. Also I would really suggest cutting one PFire and going to 3 LftL and testing that. Loam can basically dredge for pFires and I agree they are a core engine in this deck... Maybe add an entomb or two if you dont want to go to three? then you can tutor for a large portion of your deck since it has a lot of GY base.

@Bayou: Thought about it. Maybe you are right here. As i said, tuning the lands configuration isn't so easy.
@Garruk Relentless: Only 1 Green so easy splashable. Why we can't cast a single 4 drop in games, were we won't max out Smallpox and Wasteland effects against Controlbuilds with a solid mana base. Against Miracles spam the field with dudes between Terminus, Verdict and RIP isn't so bad, especially against Mr. Jace and with some helpfull Punishing Fire Action. Against BUG Variants, Liliana can't defend herself against a Decay. If decks like Walking Dead with only 20 lands can bring a single Koth of the Hammer against Control Decks, we can also bring Garruk. If you need more aggro, Koth maybe is also an option along with 4 Badlands.
@Toxic and Sideboard Slots: Yeah more than enough room for each direction. I also like the Golgari Charm (good against UWR, because you can kill TNN or RIP) or maybe a Maelstrom Pulse, Engineered Explosives etc.

My first test results are solid enough - we have a base to improve the deck idea. But it needs a lot more discussion and gaming.

I think that Garruk can be ok... but if you want to flood the field with creatures maybe we should test Xenegos? He allows haster creation which would be invaluablew in the matchups you mentioned and against decks that boast a lot of creature hate. While he cant fight creatures I think it may be worth it for the haste.