Chinese fakes

[BVB09]

Honestly, everybody should star buying those fakes.
Wizards PUNISH (and I mean PUNISH in the worse of the senses) eternal players by not reprinting staples.
Some cards are reaching ridiculous prices, and I'm speaking as someone who owns expensive cards and has payed $100 for his duals.
Come on, this is ridiculous, duals and on the RL, ok. But not reprinting FoW or Wasteland? They're being complete as***les, do they thing average people want to spend $200 for 4 cards?
Where used to it, but that's not reasonable from a company that SHOULD protect his players/buyers.
I fully support those fakes, I would order 4 candelabras

[DLifshitz]

Abolishing the Reserve List seems like a real possibility now if the fake cards actually have an impact on the market. It would be foolish to think that Wizards would allow to let such profit slip through their fingers.

That's a very... optimistic assessment of the situation. They were always able to tap into the demand for Legacy reprints. There have been reprints, but not very many, and some of them ended up as mythics in $7 boosters. Thanks, but no thanks. What, on the other hand, if the prices of Legacy staples drop to the point that SCG decides to discontinue Legacy support? Wouldn't the proliferation of counterfeit Legacy cards undermine the viability (and profitability) of Legacy as a big tournament format?

[Barook]

Uh no they aren't going to print moxes. They are going to print modern masters Tarmogoyfs, Voices of Resurgence and other standard / modern garbage because it's absolutely easier to sell in pack mint condition as real.

To all you people who fawned over the hideous MM framed Goyfs ... SUCK IT!

Of course they aren't going to print Moxes or other similiar silly-priced cards.

Cards from M15 are going to be way harder to fake for a while, so they might go after the Legacy/Modern market, though, which has higher priced staples anyway. And I don't see why they couldn't add a bit of wear to the fakes to sell them in decent NM condition. You can make a mint card to a near mint one, but it doesn't work the other way around.

That's optimistic. They were always able to tap into the demand for Legacy reprints. They just chose to ignore us.

What, on the other hand, if the prices of Legacy staples drop to the point that SCG decides to discontinue Legacy support? Wouldn't the proliferation of counterfeit Legacy cards undermine the viability (and profitability) of Legacy as a big tournament format?

That's something I have thought about, too. It could indeed become an issue. They already tried to replace Legacy as a format in certain locations last year, but thank God that was a failure.

A cheaper format means more players, though, so it could bring some balance, though.

The current situation isn't healthy either, with rising prices due to increasing demand, but supply staying the same or getting lowered due to hoarders.

While SCG does a great job at promoting the format, the result of increasing prices makes the format less accessible. Didn't SCG have Vintage tournaments a few years ago that drove up the price more and more until the format was dead like disco? Sure, there were other factors as well why Vintage died, but it might have been a reason.

[Gheizen64]

Finally, an economically justifiable way to play standard!

Jokes aside, this plus the new holofoil stamp augurs well for the abolition of the Reserved List.

More probably, they'll print more shitty cards like TNN to kill Legacy for good, and better duals with the new Holographic protection so they can hoard even more gold.

[DLifshitz]

While SCG does a great job at promoting the format, the result of increasing prices makes the format less accessible. Didn't SCG have Vintage tournaments a few years ago that drove up the price more and more until the format was dead like disco? Sure, there were other factors as well why Vintage died, but it might have been a reason.

Ben Bleiweiss famously said that proxies hurt Vintage* so I imagine that counterfeits could likewise hurt Legacy. I'm not familiar with the state of affairs back then, but I think parallels can be drawn with the current situation. In the end, we'll just have to wait and see. If they don't go into full denial mode, WotC will probably take a fairly long time to come up with a carefully worded statement regarding this reported influx of counterfeits.

*
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...ttendance.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...?Article=17339

[Arsenal]

I recall the argument about proxies in Vintage being more about the fact that the winners always took the cash prize instead of the store credit (to presumably buy actual power9).

EDIT: Although if these fakes get to the point where they're 100% indistinguishable from the real thing, then I suppose the same thing will happen in Legacy tourneys; cash payout instead of feeding it back into the store.

[Barook]

Ben Bleiweiss famously said that proxies hurt Vintage* so I imagine that counterfeits could likewise hurt Legacy. I'm not familiar with the state of affairs back then, but I think parallels can be drawn with the current situation. In the end, we'll just have to wait and see. If they don't go into full denial mode, WotC will probably take a fairly long time to come up with a carefully worded statement regarding this reported influx of counterfeits.

*
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...ttendance.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...?Article=17339

While some arguments may apply to Legacy like devaluing prices (who gives a shit about an Underground Sea as price if you could get cheap knock-offs?), not everything would apply here.

Assuming the fakes were flawless, you could easily play them in a sanctioned tournament, unlike proxies. There was also the issue of power migration to Europe - however, there are alot more duals then there is power, so supply isn't an issue. You can't play proxies in a non-proxy tournament - one could very well play perfect fakes if it's impossible to distinguish them.

[Higgs]

What is this world coming to, I can't even. :(

On a serious note, I googled for "alibaba chinese fakes" and came across this page. Claims that these guys were taking action against counterfeiting in China. Wtf?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...49394254345564

[DLifshitz]

Assuming the fakes were flawless, you could easily play them in a sanctioned tournament, unlike proxies..

I believe that if it comes to that, and if people can actually procure such counterfeits, WotC will introduce stronger safeguards, even to the point of making the new cards incompatible with the old unless opaque sleeves are used, and then they will actually phase out formats where the easily faked cards are playable. As in, "it became necessary to destroy the game to save it." Who knows, one day every individual rare might have its own identifying code that you can verify online.

[Kage]

I long for the days when people bought Magic to play an exciting strategy game, and the most outrageously expensive staples capped at 20 bucks.

I think Wizards mate their bed with the reserved list and the mythic rarity.

On a sidenote a guy on 4chan is planning to order 10 000 copies of Jace from the chinese for the lulz. Can't wait to see the responses if that plan goes through :)

[Adryan]

I'm really hoping for a massive print of fake Legacy cards that are hard to identify as fake cards.

Then Hasbro will realize that they're losing a lot of money, if they don't print shiny new Legacy cards with holo and Maro could say that they were forced to break their promise because of criminals :D

[(nameless one)]

It would be nice to get a playset of Tabernacles

[clavio]

It would be nice to get a playset of Tabernacles

I played a shitty winter orb deck for years and I never really felt like I needed more than 3. Why would you need a playset?

[nedleeds]

I believe that if it comes to that, and if people can actually procure such counterfeits, WotC will introduce stronger safeguards, even to the point of making the new cards incompatible with the old unless opaque sleeves are used, and then they will actually phase out formats where the easily faked cards are playable. As in, "it became necessary to destroy the game to save it." Who knows, one day every individual rare might have its own identifying code that you can verify online.

Then they'll have to allow CE/IE and gold bordered. Not that those amounts are enough to tip pricing too much in one direction or another.

[Barook]

Then Hasbro will realize that they're losing a lot of money, if they don't print shiny new Legacy cards with holo and Maro could say that they were forced to break their promise because of criminals :D

I could see something like this happening.

The funny part about the entire ordeal is the part where it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, considering what spot light the fakes now get. Nobody gave a shit about them before.

Wizards: "We have to add additional security measures because there are high quality fakes out there that are extremely hard to distinguish from the real thing."
Masses: "Wait, there are high quality fakes that are as good as the real thing? Brb, time to buy."
*markt gets flooded with fakes*
Wizards: "See, we had to make our new cards more secure due to fakes."

Edit: Food for thought: What about card alters? One could easily alter flaws like a messed-up copyright line, making it much harder to tell the fake apart from the real thing. I think this issue has implications we aren't even aware of yet.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

If this sort of counterfeit becomes widespread, and that's a big if, the era of exorbitantly expensive gamepieces is coming to a close.

Stuff that is legitimately rare/collectible will retain value, because collectors and dealers will have the time and means to be certain of a card's authenticity. But things like Revised duals, FoWs, and the like....they're going down. Judges and TOs are already overworked (and underpaid) in the current tournament atmosphere. Having to outfit and train each judge in the spotting of counterfeits would be a logistical nightmare. So that means these fakes are valid substitutes for the real McCoy. And who wouldn't want to shave ~500 dollars off the cost of any given Legacy deck? I think everyone sees where this is going w.r.t. supply&demand.

Star City will likely come out okay. They're smart cookies, and diversify their holdings well, not going all in on any given thing. Plus, with their reputation they could clean up selling verified, authentic collectible cards; something smaller outlets without the brandpower may find a difficult endeavor. I think they's still support Legacy as well. While counterfeiters might cause the price of core staples (duals/fetches/FoWs/etc.) to plummet, I doubt they'll be printing more niche staples (like Doomsday, Argothian Enchantress, Flagstones of Trokair, etc.) over in the Middle Kingdom. Players will still have to buy he real thing, and SCG will be there selling.

This basically puts the ball in Wizard's court to actually make money off Legacy and rein in the unruly secondary market. Will they do this? The probability is non-zero, but not much greater. Wizards seems content to do an extremely shitty job as of late in the design and management of their game. While Magic is robust against their poor decisions, they'd still be leaving a lot of money on the table...something the higher-ups might not look upon so favorably.

Again, all of this speculation is only valid if these counterfeits become a thing. It may turn out that people are none too keen buying fake trading cards with a credit card number that may very well be used to score porn beyond the Great Firewall.

[clavio]

Edit: Food for thought: What about card alters? One could easily alter flaws like a messed-up copyright line, making it much harder to tell the fake apart from the real thing. I think this issue has implications we aren't even aware of yet.

Well, shit. That's a good point, idk what they could possibly do.

[Barook]

Well, shit. That's a good point, idk what they could possibly do.

I'm currently reading the related 4chan thread. Someone made a very good point:

What about Chinese, Japanese or Russian cards which people use to pimp their decks? Good luck finding typesetting errors in those moonrunes.

Another point: The EDH crowd drove up the prices of Legacy staples - but what about the kitchen table players who don't care about tournaments and just play with friends? They could very well become a major market for those fakes.

Edit: Also a supposed list of cards they're currently selling. Might be a good point what to look out for in the future: (just copy&pasted it, contains spelling errors, but you get the idea)

Tropical Island
Temple Garden
Stomping Ground
Overgrown Tomb
Sacred Foundry
Breeding Pool
Misty Rainforst
Celestial Colonnade
Flooded Strand
Arid Mesa
Wasteland
Inkmoth Nexus
Elspeth Sun's Champion
Tarmogoyf
Cavern of Souls
Scalding Tarn
Hallowed Fountain
Polluted Delta
Surgical Extraction
Sol Ring
Underground sea
Marsh Flats
Reflecting Pool
Mutavault
Wooded Foothills
Windswept Health
Watery Grave
Godless Shrine
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
Savannah
Blood Crypt
Verdant Catacombs
Kalonian Hydra
Avacyn, Angel of Hope
Thassa, God of the sea,
Jace, Architect of Thought
Swords to Plowshares
Plains
Chalice of the Void
Goblin guide
it that betrays
sword of war and peace
sword of fire and ice
purphoros god of the forge
sun titan
sensei's divining top
demonic tutor
elspeth knight-errant
thoughtseize
pernicious deed
sword of feast and famine
goblin lackey
goblin pilcdriver
inquistion of kozilek
engineered explosives
kokusho the evening star
bonfire of the damned
ral zarek
lona shild of emeria
stoneforge mystic
spellskite
karn liberated
tundra
path to exile
mountain
Swamp
Figure of Destiny
Ather Vial
Vampiric Tutor
Snapcaster Mage
Academy Ruins
Batterskull
Force of Will
Leyline of Sanctity
Island
Intuition
Sphinx's Revelation
Reanimate

[Dice_Box]

To the guys saying you could just sruff up some old cards and have them pass, you do not need to. Here is one of my collection duels (so a card I don't play with very much)

http://imgur.com/fuVYJmj

You don't have to waste time damaging old fakes, you just pass it off as mint.

Edit
Can I get the chan link? I have no idea how to use that site.

[Mewens]

That list of printables is all over the place. Reanimate? Figure of Destiny? No Show and Tell?

Legacy definitely wasn't forefront for that list. Commander, sure, but not Legacy.