"We're getting rid of the reserved list."Originally Posted by Barook
"Boo! Wizards break promises."
"Duals confirmed for M16."
"Yay! Wizards break promises!"
Duals that gain a life would be sweet for Legacy. You offset your fetches, and it's a bonus for exposing yourself to Wasteland. It makes less aggressive decks better. Also Snow is a super relevant type for Legacy, so we NEED Snow Duals!
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Really? A lawsuit is what they're afraid of? Hasbro makes 350+ million/year net income...I can't imagine that even if (and that's a big if) they lost a class-action suit, it would really put that much of a dent in their operation. Plus it's a great pitch to investors "hey we're going to piss off a few people so we can sell absolute shitloads of new product!"
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I wonder if they could launch a real life redemption program where you can send your cards in to get newly printed (with their stupid symbol) versions. They could charge a fee and make a bunch of money on that.
That would probably be the most useless program ever. Considering the vehement dislike of the new borders among a sizable chunk of Eternal players, none of those would ever decide to do that.
And what if they make them a little more aesthetically pleasing? Your argument against the program is based almost entirely on the way the new borders look. That's REALLY hard to fix... /endsarcasm
I think the greatest danger is in loss of confidence in the market. Once a player is no longer confident that $100 he is spending on Force of Will, Cradle or Wasteland is getting the official product the entire market suffers.
MTG was just not built with counterfeit measures at its inception, nor throughout its history (until M15 I guess). As soon as the counterfeits become close enough to the real thing to trick the majority of the public, the market for legacy and expensive singles crashes. This may be a good thing or it may be a bad thing.
I think in the worst case scenario, the legacy market crashes. The legacy format is not supported because LGS have no reason to support a format that does not bring them money, and in fact may cost them money. If they have been buying legacy staples with the intention to resell them and the market crashes, their inventory becomes worth a fraction of what they paid for it.
Its too early to tell what will come of this, but I can say my confidence is initially shaken. I'm not buying anything until I know more about how widespread this is and how easy or difficult it is to spot counterfeits.
**
I firmly believe the game would be better if cards were cheaper and more accessible to everyone. But I don't claim to know Wizards business model. I imagine having ultra rare (mythic rare) cards that move boxes is probably desirable to Wizards. Which is the exact same scenario that makes counterfeiting a profitable venture.
In the 16 years, I have played this game, this is the biggest and potentially most disrupting story I've learned of. I'm quite frankly shocked that WoTC, SCG, and CF are thus far silent on the issue. I don't think pretending the issue doesn't exist is a wise move.
My first impression after reading all of this is I'd rather just play Magic Online. I've thought this for a while now, but WotC would probably be happier if Vintage and Legacy became player operated and managed formats with the only support being for online events. WotC has made it clear they don't design for Legacy or Vintage, offer really an incentive or support for the events, and it's obvious they don't make any money off of them.
The problem comes in that Legacy and Vintage aren't sustainable sources of income for WotC, even if the reserved list were to be abolished. At best, they're one shot opportunities to make money - granted they are losing out on those in players start buying these fakes/proxies? However, the cards we'd all want reprinted are not going to be released in Standard. The cards would be in box sets or a Modern Masters type set. It would appeal to only a smaller player base and if people left Standard for Legacy or Vintage, WotC would lose money. Every player that left Standard or Limited to play Legacy or Vintage decreases the demand for new sets. Look at Theros block - few to zero Legacy and Vintage playable cards. From a business perspective, why would WotC want to make Legacy and Vintage more accessible?
The reality is if Legacy/Vintage players wanted to play Standard or Limited, they're already be doing so. Releasing staples for eternal formats will not make current eternal players more likely to play Standard or Limited. However, releasing eternal staples will make Standard and Limited players more likely to play eternal formats and potentially less likely to play Standard and Limited.
It is simple in theory but in practice, actually hard to fix. If it was as easy as you imply with your sarcasm, we'd get M15 borders which are widely supported.
I'm conflicted. As a player I would be glad to see cheaper cards in the market. But since I have so much money invested in cards it makes me nervous that I'm going to lose my potential investment.
If the cards are indistinguishable from the real thing maybe wizards will make a move to verify older cards as real or fake for a small fee.
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Actually there once was a meeting about abolishing the Reserved List and although big sellers like SCG and Channelfireball wanted the Reserved List to be gone, Hasbro lawyers were afraid of a lawsuit so this idea was canceled.
Feel free to ask any lawyer, like i did and they will tell you that if Wotc breaks their promise and lets say Revises Usea becomes a 50 $ staple you can sue them and be 100% sure of getting a refund from Hasbro/Wotc/whatever...
Of course they can break their promise and if Revised Usea stays at it's current price, you can't sue them, because you can't sue people for breaking promises. You can only sue them because you lost money because of their broken promise...
TheRiedl on Magic Online
About Magic Online:
I can play legacy whenever I want. Cardboard has no value. Data has no value. My time and enjoyment has high value to me. More legacy = more fun. Buy in.
Refund for what? The $2.50 you paid in 1993 for a revised booster containing your original usea?
Curious, not rhetorical.
"I made a Redguard that looks like Kimbo Slice. He wrecks peoples' shit. And dragons." - Bignasty197
So if fakes drove down the price of cards, wizards could potentially reprint without fear of being sued due to damages of broken promises?
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You have no clue what you're talking about.
Nobody is winning a lawsuit against WotC if they abolish the reserved list. It's not a contract. It's their current reprint policy which is subject to their whims. They've altered it over the years to include promo's and can alter it again. Speculating on collectibles isn't a right, even for a large speculator like Troll and Toad.
Ship them all the really good fakes and get real cards back!
Matt Bevenour in real life
Yes, he does. Other than saying the attorney "guaranteed" him he'd get his money back, anyway. No attorney who enjoys keeping their license ever says anything like that. Otherwise, the poster is correct. Promissory Estoppel and potentially statutory deceptive trade practice claims are very real. Whether or not they matter depends on whether people are damaged, however.
This is a very, very common misunderstanding. You are right, Wizards has no contract with people not to reprint cards. That means you do not get to file a contract claim. Similarly, you are correct in saying there is no "right" to card value. That means you do not have a... a constitutional claim, I guess. Not that you would anyway. There are other kinds of claims in the world, among them equitable claims of the nature mentioned above. People cannot make promises, induce people to change their position in reliance, and then not keep the promise. That is actionable in some circumstances.
Make no mistake -- given the sea of underpaid or underemployed lawyers out there now, if WotC abolished the reserve list, it is almost certain that some lawyers WILL investigate making claims about it the minute any collector complains. This does not mean they win, mind you. But people will try to take advantage of the situation for their own ends.
They shred the cards to authenticate them, returning new cards if they pass and relieving you of forgeries if they don't. Genius!
It would need a different subtype, since Supertypes like Snow or Legendary would still violate the Reserve List.
"Forest Island -Whorehouse" would be totally fine as far as the Reserve List is concerned. But then there would be the stupid "spirit of the Reserve list" BS.
MODO duals have the old border with sweet, new art. Sure, you would still need the stupid looking black bottom and the holostamp, but hey, can't have everything.
It's not a legal-binding contract. How exactly are they going to win this? But then again, Apple patented round corners in America and won...
The ironic part is that the Reserve List isn't going to protect those collectors at all this time. Doing nothing would just mean their collection loses value without any return if those fakes become a thing which is a real possibibility. Even if said fakes were still distinguishable this time, they could easily become perfect in the next wave. The technology is definitely there now.
The loss of trust is already there. Rumor has it that even SCG sold some fakes unnoticed - which wouldn't be too suprising if the fake was well-made, considering SCG loves to buyout staples from other sides in order to claim scarcity and rise the price.
Actually, that would work. The fakes don't have blue paper inside. The implementation and cost would be a different topic, though.
Patents are a completely different thing than contracts, though.
Again, you are making a common mistake of assuming there is one and only one kind of claim you can sue over in America. There are many kinds of claims that have nothing to do with whether there is a "legal-binding contract." Here, for example, Promissory Estoppel or Equitable Estoppel or maybe even deceptive trade practice laws might apply.
What on Earth do Patents have to do with abolishing the reserve list...?
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