Chinese fakes

[MaximumC]

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is a good question. There are several reasons. One of them is because players are familiar with cards that are real or look real, other types of proxies, especially handwritten or sharpie proxies slow down and hinder gameplay because they encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint.

This happens in every single game of EDH I've ever played. Reading the card doesn't take that long. This seems like a pretty shaky reason to want counterfeit cards.

There are also instances where I will disclose I am playing with proxies, and those people won't care, but I still like my cards looking like real cards because it looks cool.

"Cool?" This also seems shaky. If you're playing with disclosed proxies, more power to you. You say you care about gameplay, why do you care if your cards look "cool?" Proxies can look ten times as cool as real cards anyway.

Another primary reasons is because I don't see anything morally wrong about deceiving someone about my cards outside of a trade or transaction provided it doesn't affect game play. I know people who on principle don't want to play with fake cards, and they would never let me play with full art proxies, or sharpie proxies. Some of them don't provide reasons but are adamant about them, other people say that you should only be able to play with cards you earned or actually bought, but this is a silly arbitrary rule that doesn't impact gameplay.

* * *

Not just LGS events, but even in casual games.

And here's the meat of the matter, I think. You want counterfeit cards to "deceive" people because you think they're dumb or unfair for wanting people to play with authentic Magic cards. And you want to try this at your LGS events. This is cheating. Like, disqualify you from the tournament, ban you from DCI, you're not welcome back at this store variety cheating.

More than that, can you see how people would view your eagerness to lie to them because you look down on their preferences as offensive?

[davelin]

You initially said "Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL."

In other words, you were saying I shouldn't buy passable proxies because it's against the law.

I said producing counterfeits is against the law, and you're supporting such endeavors.

[Guie]

What it comes down to is that I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm not selling or trading the proxy cards as real cards. No one has proven that these proxies will hurt the value of your cards, or LGS's or Wizards. No one has provided evidence to prove anything close to those things happening. Counterfeit yugioh cards, along with Pokemon and baseball cards have existed for years, and they haven't hurt the market or value of the real cards. There are already hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of passable Magic the Gathering proxies "in the wild" and your cards are just fine. I just want to have a near identical MTG experience that others have, except I don't have thousands of dollars to spend. Until you can prove that I'm harming you, or anyone, or gameplay, you are going to just have to deal with it.

The Burden of Proof lies with you and not them. You are the one wanting to do something other players see as a potential problem. Do you have empirical evidence of rampant counterfeiting doing nothing to a company's bottom line?


You keep talking about artificial barriers to entry and how it should be "about the game" and not about the size of a player's wallet. Yet playing with slightly inferior proxies negatively impacts your experience? What about the game? A crappy proxy Underground Sea still taps for Blue and Black, does it not? You stated individuals in your playgroup and at your LGS don't like proxies. So instead of choosing to swallow your pride and purchase the cards or just not play the game, you instead choose to deceive those players into believing your cards are real.

Just to add, this isn't just about Reserved List cards and Legacy staples. I've seen Delson's list. His first run included more Theros than Dual Lands and over a 3rd of the cards are Standard legal.

This happens in every single game of EDH I've ever played. Reading the card doesn't take that long. This seems like a pretty shaky reason to want counterfeit cards.



"Cool?" This also seems shaky. If you're playing with disclosed proxies, more power to you. You say you care about gameplay, why do you care if your cards look "cool?" Proxies can look ten times as cool as real cards anyway.



And here's the meat of the matter, I think. You want counterfeit cards to "deceive" people because you think they're dumb or unfair for wanting people to play with authentic Magic cards. And you want to try this at your LGS events. This is cheating. Like, disqualify you from the tournament, ban you from DCI, you're not welcome back at this store variety cheating.

More than that, can you see how people would view your eagerness to lie to them because you look down on their preferences as offensive?

Not immoral, just unethical.

MaximumC got in before my ninja edit.

[MaximumC]

btw, I'm not sure it is a question of morals, more ethics.

As he has now made it clear that at least one of his purpose is specifically to "deceive" people at his LGS, it's really just a question of honesty. Regardless of the moralethicalwhocares, Magic tournament rules and his social group will punish him for doing this. It's just a matter of time.

[Lemnear]

Man, 1:20am and I want popcorn reading this thread... :D


@Dave: I doubt that the Moral-Club is any effektive if we discuss cheating on "friends" with indistinguishable fakes :/

[HonorBasquiat]

This happens in every single game of EDH I've ever played. Reading the card doesn't take that long. This seems like a pretty shaky reason to want counterfeit cards.



"Cool?" This also seems shaky. If you're playing with disclosed proxies, more power to you. You say you care about gameplay, why do you care if your cards look "cool?" Proxies can look ten times as cool as real cards anyway.



And here's the meat of the matter, I think. You want counterfeit cards to "deceive" people because you think they're dumb or unfair for wanting people to play with authentic Magic cards. And you want to try this at your LGS events. This is cheating. Like, disqualify you from the tournament, ban you from DCI, you're not welcome back at this store variety cheating.

More than that, can you see how people would view your eagerness to lie to them because you look down on their preferences as offensive?

It does take a long time, especially if all of your cards are fake, or when players recognize cards based on things like card art. The point is it does take longer and it does affect game play.

I care about gameplay obviously, but it's nice to have an accurate simulation.

I want passable proxies to deceive people, because because I think it's silly for people to refuse to play with me for a reason that has nothing to do with gameplay. "I don't want to play against your America Control deck because you only paid $100 dollars for it, oh wait, you paid $2500 and it's real, never mind, let's play, that changes everything!"

As for tourney play, to be honest, I'm not a big tourney guy so I couldn't see myself doing that, but I wouldn't judge someone who used passable proxies in a tourney and ended up winning. He still has to pay the entry fee, and whether he wins with a $3000 Stoneblade deck or a $100 version doesn't affect game play which should determine who wins tourneys, not arbitrary things like barriers to entry based around cash. Think about other rules at tourneys, things about no cheating your shuffling, not playing with marked cards, etc. All the other rules are designed to ensure fair gameplay. This rule is just arbitrary.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ok, got me dude. But next time I'll really use the Ignore feature, although it makes threads messy.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is a good question. There are several reasons. One of them is because players are familiar with cards that are real or look real, other types of proxies, especially handwritten or sharpie proxies slow down and hinder gameplay because they encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint.

CMYK xerox. Case solved.

Another primary reasons is because I don't see anything morally wrong about deceiving someone about my cards outside of a trade or transaction provided it doesn't affect game play. I know people who on principle don't want to play with fake cards, and they would never let me play with full art proxies, or sharpie proxies. Some of them don't provide reasons but are adamant about them, other people say that you should only be able to play with cards you earned or actually bought, but this is a silly arbitrary rule that doesn't impact gameplay. There are also instances where I will disclose I am playing with proxies, and those people won't care, but I still like my cards looking like real cards because it looks cool.

From where comes your obsession with gameplay? You keep parroting the same two or three phrases all over: "gameplay experience", "baseless assumption" and "morale crusade". Ther are other aspects than just gamepolay, and even gameoplay might be affected by proxies/fakes/foreign/foil cards.
The people you play with (I'd be careful to call them "yor friends") made a public wish/warning that they don't want proxies/fakes at their table. You bring proxies/fakes? You cheat them, period. Do you understand? What you're doing is immoral.

Earlier someone said that passable proxies ruin the meta because they encourage players to arms race and start playing with stupidly powerful cards, not only can the same be said about regular proxies, but the same could be said about a wealthy player who just chooses to spend a lot of money on powerful cards.

It's harder to do. It costs... money. One needs devotion. Also, that group may simply home-rule ban some cards. They may even ban that player. They may hate him out. And similarly, they should hate out anyone who brings proxies/fakes to their table, although they clearly said the don't allow them.
It's that simple. If your wife doesn't want you to date sluts, if your mother doesn't want you to smoke cigers in dining room, and if your friends don't want fakes at their table, you have two choices: obey or gtfo.

By the way, what I said is, anyone who thinks that I shouldn't be able to play on an equal playing field with them because I didn't spend as much money is being petty. Specifically with the mentality, "you didn't spend $3000, so you don't deserve to play Stoneblade. You can play Stoneblade with crappy obvious proxies, but once it's similar to my $3000 experience, I have to put my foot down because you are having just as much of a MTG experience as me without paying for it. That's not fair." That's just elitist nonsense.

So, you're not only cheater, you're also manipulator.
I don't care if you can or cannot play Stoneblade. (Btw, cry elsewhere.) But I do care if the flood of fakes (that you're helping to unleash) destroys reliability of secondary market, sends lgs to nowhere, or any other baseless assumption I may think of. So hwy should I value your "gaming experience" more than e.g. the credibility of secondary market?
And btw, you'Re simply lying. No one told you that you might play with crappy obvious proxies, but once it's similar to my $3000 experience, I have to put my foot down because you are having just as much of a MTG experience as me without paying for it. The people of your group told you to gtfo with any kind of forgeries. And we are saying to yout that you may play however nice proxies you wish to, but not at the expense of supporting the fakers who leech the community.

I have heard many people (even in this thread) who have spent thousands of dollars on cards, but have no problem with passable proxies provided they aren't being used to dupe people financially, because they eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entry to play a game (how much $$$ you have) and encourage more competition.

Change their opinion or gtfo of their table.

[Lemnear]

New friends; no problem

/thread

[Bed Decks Palyer]

New friends; no problem

/thread

How was your popcorn?

[Lemnear]

How was your popcorn?

Delicious. I owe you some for the Entertainment. (Reminds me that Slosh invited me for a Beer... Hmmmmm)


Blitz-edit: In case you missed it (as being burried on a previous page):

Edit: BDP makes me feel embarassed not being able to speak/write even one staight sentence in czech :/

[MaximumC]

New friends; no problem

/thread

If your options are:

(a) Lie to your friends; or
(b) Find friends who do not mind allowing you to do what you want to do

Then I think Lemnear's post is really inescapable.

[Dzra]

Man, 1:20am and I want popcorn reading this thread... :D

I know, right? It's hard to look away.

HonorBasquiat, you have several legitimate options.

- Convince your playgroup to allow good looking proxies that will not hinder gameplay.

- Ask if they'd be alright with you proxying the deck until you can actually save up to buy it.

- Find a new playgroup that accepts proxies.

I don't walk onto a golf course and expect them to allow me to play wearing my pajamas. If they tell me to put on some slacks then it doesn't matter if they are "selfish" or "petty" or whatever, it's because it's their golf course and that's what they want. If I don't like it then I can find a different golf course or put on some fucking pants. If my solution is to jump the fence and sneak onto their course anyways then I'm just another spoiled jackass in a world full of people that want their money for nothing and their chicks for free.

[Lemnear]

@Dzra: This thread is indeed like Coco Austin. Somehow disgusting and appealing at the same time... duh!

[HonorBasquiat]

I know, right? It's hard to look away.

HonorBasquiat, you have several legitimate options.

- Convince your playgroup to allow good looking proxies that will not hinder gameplay.

- Ask if they'd be alright with you proxying the deck until you can actually save up to buy it.

- Find a new playgroup that accepts proxies.

I don't walk onto a golf course and expect them to allow me to play wearing my pajamas. If they tell me to put on some slacks then it doesn't matter if they are "selfish" or "petty" or whatever, it's because it's their golf course and that's what they want. If I don't like it then I can find a different golf course or put on some fucking pants. If my solution is to jump the fence and sneak onto their course anyways then I'm just another spoiled jackass in a world full of people that want their money for nothing and their chicks for free.

Even if my playgroup allowed good looking passable proxies that will not hinder game play, you all would still judge me just for purchasing or using them.

Wearing pajamas is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be like if the golf club had a rule that said in order to play golf, you have to wear a $3000 Armani Suit, but you bought a fake one that cost only $100 and no one would have no idea, they'd enjoy playing golf with you, but if you told them your suit was fake, suddenly they'd make a big deal about it.

My playgroup isn't stupid, they know that passable proxies don't hinder gameplay. They are against them for reasons that have nothing to do with gameplay and they like barriers to entry because they don't like the idea of other people having a near identical experience for the same cost, and they don't like losing to people who spent less money on cards than them.

[MaximumC]

So you want to lie in order to play cards you do not own against people you do not like.

[HonorBasquiat]

So you want to lie in order to play cards you do not own against people you do not like.

I like the people, and I really enjoy playing with them a lot. Much more than another circle I hate. I just think one of their rules is petty and arbitrary.

[Dice_Box]

And how will they react once they know you have been lying to them? I can honestly say I would not be impressed with someone lying to me.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Dzra]

Wearing pajamas is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be like if the golf club had a rule that said in order to play golf, you have to wear a $3000 Armani Suit, but you bought a fake one that cost only $100 and no one would have no idea, they'd enjoy playing golf with you, but if you told them your suit was fake, suddenly they'd make a big deal about it.

I guess this is an alright analogy? I'm pretty sure that it isn't too hard for them to distinguish between a suit made of fine material and a cheap knock off. Regardless, the point still stands... it's their golf course and they have every right to make whatever requirements they like. If you respect them then your choices are to get an Armani Suit or play at a different golf course. If you don't respect them then why do you want to play with them anyways?
This isn't life and death we are talking about. No one is forcing you to do anything.

[Indent]

Are these fakes being sold on a particular website, or just on alibaba?

[HonorBasquiat]

And how will they react once they know you have been lying to them? I can honestly say I would not be impressed with someone lying to me.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

The idea is they would never find out or if they did, it would be after a bunch of games and I would explain to them that they had a bunch of fun, so let's just keep playing.

The point about the golf analogy is that I don't know why I should feel bad about deceiving people about an arbitrary rule that essentially is pointless discrimination that doesn't affect game play.

Overall the point is, I'm not hurting anyone by playing with the proxies. We've gone a little off topic, but that's the primary point. If I'm not selling or trading the cards as real cards, I'm not hurting anyone, and you can't prove otherwise.