Chinese fakes

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

Was this meant as a response to me? Learn to read, then. I'm not justifying the counterfeits, I'm merely describing reality.

Anyone who thinks massive counterfeits are good for Legacy in the long run has to be suffering from a serious brain injury.

Stop with this. If you can't discuss things politelly, then maybe don't discuss at all.

Without collectors, dealers, and players Magic doesn't exist as we know it. WotC's "no/low reprint policy" hurt 1 of those pillars and the likely end result is more counterfeits which then hurts collectors and dealers.

Yes, you're right.

But the big problem with that analogy is that the producers still sell tickets for shows to people who want to buy them. For this analogy to work, what would have to happen is that the producers (or whoever are the ones selling tickets) could be making tickets to sell, but they refuse to even though there's still plenty of room (i.e. they're not sold out). So if you want to buy a ticket to a show, you have to find someone who already has a ticket and try to get it from them.

The most relevant analogy I can think of is a company that owns the copyright to a TV series but, after the show went off the air, have refused to provide any actual way to still watch it (e.g. no DVD release, no iTunes download, nothing on Hulu, etc.) despite there being strong demand for it (i.e. we're not talking about some obscure show from 20 years ago or a series that bombed horribly and was canceled after 2 episodes; we're talking about a series that is actually really popular and would sell well if released somehow).

This.

I'm with dontbiteitholmes: There are a lot of seriously warped attitudes in this community. If you want something -- whether it's a mountain bike, or a computer, or a piece of power, or a dual land -- but you can't afford it, you save for it. The purchase gains additional meaning because you worked for something; you didn't just snap your fingers and watch it appear. Some people act like they're entitled to cheap duals or a Tier 1 Legacy deck just because they're interested in the format. That's not how it works.

We all came to Magic at different times, but we all came in with nothing. Everybody started at zero and blah blah blah...

...blah, blah, all the while the Chinese factories vomit tonnes of fakes. It definitely isn't helpful to be nostagic about your first Force of Nature and describe how you've built your collection from nothing, when there are economical laws (like the one saying that there where is a demand, there will be supply) that simply don't have a clue of Magic's exclusivity in the world of economics.
Wizards screwed it with the RL, the so-called "tool to protect the collectors", and now it will be mainly the collectors who'd be screwd by RL. Pretty funny, if you dare to ask me. Shame that they wasted ten of thousands of MY money in the process.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

Look, adult hobbies are expensive. Almost everything worth doing is expensive. I got into riding bikes this summer and easily spend $1000 on that. I have easily put $2000 into skimboards, bodyboards, wetsuits, and other equipment from living at the beach for a decade. Snowboarding is like $50 a lift ticket + hundreds to thousands in gear. Movies cost $10 a pop in theaters. Skydiving is $50+ a drop. Taking girls on dates is expensive (well depends how you play it but you get the point). I know many people who have bought $1000 worth of video games over the past 5 years easily. Many have dropped hundreds to thousands on WoW or LoL. I can't seem to leave the bar without my wallet being $30-50 lighter.

Every adult hobby is expensive, the difference with Magic was I could buy into a Legacy deck @ $1500 and years later when I'm done with it there was some confidence I could turn around and sell it and a fair percentage of my money back or more. There is very few hobbies where that's a thing. You think my used skimboard is worth the $400 I paid for it now 3 years later, you must be smoking crystal I might get $75-100 if I'm lucky. People get pissy because they don't want to drop money to get into Legacy but will happily throw money away elsewhere (cough Standard) because they are short sighted. In the long run over the past many years Legacy has been the LEAST EXPENSIVE HOBBY on the planet because the cards have mostly gone up or stayed the same. I'd like to see any hobby you do for 5 years and be able to cash out anywhere near the money you put in. Still people complain all the time like they don't fucking drop stacks on Standard and buy every video game on Steam. People just want it all for nothing and if they can justify getting it like that they pounce all over it. I would've been fine personally if my collection took a hit and it actually increased the health of the format. I bought the cards to play the game, as they say, and it's whatever. This will kill the format though. If there is no confidence you can sell out of the game it's going to absolutely kill legitimate Legacy and all that will be left is people who don't care because all their shit is bootleg anyways.

The way some people are foaming at the mouths like hungry jackals over this is embarrassing. I wonder if these people buy bikes that are priced "too good to be true" on craigslist knowing they are stolen, to backpack on earlier analogies. "I mean fuck it the bike's already been stolen, can't unsteal it. Owner probably should have locked it up better. It's not hurting the store anyways, they already sold the bike and the guy who lost his will buy another one." That's pretty much the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people and to be honest that's what's undermining my confidence in the game MUCH MORE than any amount of counterfeits could if people were actively against them. Lots of entitled kids wanting something for nothing and expecting everyone else to keep buying from legitimate suppliers to pick up the slack while at the same time they undermine the concept of buying from legitimate suppliers. Yeah, that's going to work out great. It's a shame too, I made a decision recently that I was going to keep my cards even though I could use the money elsewhere. It's taken me since middle school (Revised) to build up to finally owning a Power 9 set and it felt like quite the accomplishment, but now I see it more as a liability with the toxic mentality of the average player I just don't see this game existing in a healthy state 5-10 years from now like I used to.

Dude, I do nothing of what you described. You know why? I'm mature. I don't have money to waste for skidmark diving or w/e the fuck is your favourite waste of time and money. I got gorgeous Persian wife and three children. My only expensive hobby is MtG and it's only expensive beacue of WotC's inability to reprint stuff in such number, that the prices hit the dirt. Which is, btw, a perfect counter-counterfeits measure, coz no one will fake cheap cards and lose money while doing it, surprise, surprise. So I'm getting out of it and I'm selling before this bubble bursts. You may foam as much as you want, but there's nothing you can do; this game/industry is driven by economics laws and ignore them at your own risk. Well was going to go point by point refute some of your posts but instead I will post this little snippet i found in an article called THE CREATION OF MAGIC by some dude Named RICHARD GARFIELD. I don't remember exactly what his part was in making Magic. I think he might have been the janitor or something anyway dude seems pretty smart check out what he has to say.

Another thing I realized in the second year of playtesting really surprised me. Magic turned out to be one of the best economic simulations I had ever seen.

Seriously, you act like you're entitled to have a collection whose price never drops.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Was this meant as a response to me? Learn to read, then. I'm not justifying the counterfeits, I'm merely describing reality.

If you are trying to justify supporting Chinese counterfeiters over the people, shops, and companies who do legitimate business and have kept this game and format thriving for decades just so people can play in a handful of sanctioned Legacy events a year then yes I am. I'd be fine with proxy events being the new norm over this or obviously the reprint policy being revised, but taken to it's logical conclusion this undermines the legitimacy of Magic to a point I don't think is sustainable. Not that it matters, the die has already been cast. I think things are in motion that can't be undone it just irks me how much the average Magic player seems to hate the community that allowed the game to be what it is and would happily see it all unravel for personal gain (not you specifically but you won't have to dig far to find this is a very popular opinion at the moment). You seem to think this is somehow healthy for the format or Magic as a whole which is a different issue all together and is a view I can safely say we do not share. If I did agree I might see things differently but I fail to see how completely undermining the secondary market, especially with the gleefully destructive attitude some people are expressing, will lead to any long term good. I mean maybe if your ideal Magic experience is throwing down at your house with a couple buddies but you can already proxy for such events with no problem. People are acting like this is some kind of godsend for competitive Legacy but I just don't think that's a realistic view of the situation and where it is headed.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you are trying to justify supporting Chinese counterfeiters over the people, shops, and companies who do legitimate business and have kept this game and format thriving for decades just so people can play in a handful of sanctioned Legacy events a year then yes I am.

What's wrong with you? I wrote for several times that I don't support the fakes. Reading troubles? Serious brain injury?

I'd be fine with proxy events being the new norm over this or obviously the reprint policy being revised, but taken to it's logical conclusion this undermines the legitimacy of Magic to a point I don't think is sustainable. Not that it matters, the die has already been cast.

But the bolded part can't be done, and if WotC won't print the cards, someone else will. Note to readers who in fact can't read: I'm not justifying it, I'm describing reality.

I think things are in motion that can't be undone it just irks me how much the average Magic player seems to hate the community that allowed the game...

Stop this bullshit right now! I'm not hating the community, I'm merely describing the reality. also, I won't waste my hard-earned money on cardboard, be it WotC's or Shang-Chang's one. Do you understand it?

You seem to think this is somehow healthy for the format or Magic as a whole which is a different issue all together and is a view I can safely say we do not share.

What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't thInk it's healthy! Are you next level trolling me or WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK?

I mean maybe if your ideal Magic experience is throwing down at your house with a couple buddies but you can already proxy for such events with no problem.

Learn to read.

[Higgs]

I'm with dontbiteitholmes on this one (not in terms of his one on one discussions but about what he's been saying overall), there's no justifiable way to paint this in a positive way. I'm not surprised by the widespread acceptance of counterfeits in salvation/reddit whatever because the bitterness of the players who can't afford eternal formats and the way it intoxicates the community has been the elephant in the room. I've had the long term belief that more than 80% of the discussions on Magic forums are actually driven by agendas based on personal availability issues. So yeah, I'm not surprised. More like pissed. I know for a fact that this will make buying and selling much much harder, and I'm saying this from a purely "buying stuff for personal use only" point of view. And I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who've been complaining about Legacy's price barrier will just acquire these fakes to sell or trade them for their own personal profit mostly and continue playing Standard or whatever high-volume spikey format these kids play nowadays.

[Dice_Box]

To me, this gets people talking, it forces Wizards to act and it changes the face of the game. These to me are good things. I have no plans to buy any of these, I will always try and get the real thing, but meaningful and efficient discourse, that's priceless.

I want to see change at Wizards, I want to see us as eternal players have our voices heard. If this is what it takes, then so be it. We need this. Not necessarily the fake cards, but the change, the talk, the change and the chance to get a say in the future of the game.

Also, until something changes I am not against New people playing legacy. I do not buy to collect, I buy to play. More people playing the better I say.

Also, this is a demon of their own making. It was going to happen eventually with situations as they are. This was always an eventuality and that, that amuses me to no end.

[dontbiteitholmes]

What's wrong with you? I wrote for several times that I don't support the fakes. Reading troubles? Serious brain injury?

The post on the last page below yours was not about your post or I would have quoted you. The way you responded to it I may have confused your POV with someone else as far as this being a good thing (this is my take a break from school all nighter rant time, so I'm not putting 100% effort into rereading every post). Anyways notice the post you are responding to starts with IF, so apparently it doesn't apply and that's all I can say about that. A lot of the stuff I'm writing is me speaking in general terms about the way people are reacting to this, I'm not trying to put anyone specific on these forums on blast but maybe that's not clear enough.

What's wrong with you? I wrote for several times that I don't support the fakes. Reading troubles? Serious brain injury?
Stop this bullshit right now! I'm not hating the community, I'm merely describing the reality. also, I won't waste my hard-earned money on cardboard, be it WotC's or Shang-Chang's one. Do you understand it?

Dude seriously? You cut out the part where I specifically said I wasn't talking about you at the end of this sentence, so you can see how you are also contributing to my confusion here.

One sentence in my last 4 posts has been about you and I started that sentence with IF on purpose, just to clear all that up. Oh well the part about it being supposedly good for Legacy too but apparently that was confusion with someone else, my bad.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

To me, this gets people talking, it forces Wizards to act and it changes the face of the game. These to me are good things. I have no plans to buy any of these, I will always try and get the real thing, but meaningful and efficient discourse, that's priceless.

I want to see change at Wizards, I want to see us as eternal players have our voices heard. If this is what it takes, then so be it. We need this. Not necessarily the fake cards, but the change, the talk, the change and the chance to get a say in the future of the game.

Also, until something changes I am not against New people playing legacy. I do not buy to collect, I buy to play. More people playing the better I say.

Also, this is a demon of their own making. It was going to happen eventually with situations as they are. This was always an eventuality and that, that amuses me to no end.

Nothing will change. At least not for better. Theys won't abolish RL no matter what, becasue sues and shareholders.

The post on the last page below yours was not about your post or I would have quoted you. The way you responded to it I may have confused your POV with someone else as far as this being a good thing (this is my take a break from school all nighter rant time, so I'm not putting 100% effort into rereading every post). Anyways notice the post you are responding to starts with IF, so apparently it doesn't apply and that's all I can say about that. A lot of the stuff I'm writing is me speaking in general terms about the way people are reacting to this, I'm not trying to put anyone specific on these forums on blast but maybe that's not clear enough.



Dude seriously? You cut out the part where I specifically said I wasn't talking about you at the end of this sentence, so you can see how you are also contributing to my confusion here.

One sentence in my last 4 posts has been about you and I started that sentence with IF on purpose, just to clear all that up. Oh well the part about it being supposedly good for Legacy too but apparently that was confusion with someone else, my bad.

You know that word "if" might have an inculpatory subtone? If I'll write "if you really think/do xxx than yyy kittens will die" in the context of several flamy posts, do you really expect people to find such a post anything else than accusation?
Also, you were answering to my post and even quoted it, so if you wrote "If you are trying to justify..." or "...maybe if your ideal Magic experience..." it's of no surprise that I guessed that you refer to me. My bad, I can't read in between the lines.

Thread beyond stupid.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Nothing will change. At least not for better. Theys won't abolish RL no matter what, becasue sues and shareholders.



You know that word "if" might have an inculpatory subtone? If I'll write "if you really think/do xxx than yyy kittens will die" in the context of several flamy posts, do you really expect people to find such a post anything else than accusation?
Also, you were answering to my post and even quoted it, so if you wrote "If you are trying to justify..." or "...maybe if your ideal Magic experience..." it's of no surprise that I guessed that you refer to me. My bad, I can't read in between the lines.

Thread beyond stupid.

Well the "flamey post" that jumped all this off wasn't even directed at anyone in particular, part of the issue is you assumed it was about you since it followed your post, so let's just call it 50/50 since you technically also flamed me for a post that wasn't about you. Anyways it seems we are both on the same page. I think we all knew better counterfeits were coming but in reality it's the average player's reaction to the counterfeits that I didn't see coming and I find that aspect much more troubling in the end. Time to abandon ship before it sinks.

[Barook]

To me, this gets people talking, it forces Wizards to act and it changes the face of the game. These to me are good things. I have no plans to buy any of these, I will always try and get the real thing, but meaningful and efficient discourse, that's priceless.

I want to see change at Wizards, I want to see us as eternal players have our voices heard. If this is what it takes, then so be it. We need this. Not necessarily the fake cards, but the change, the talk, the change and the chance to get a say in the future of the game.

Also, until something changes I am not against New people playing legacy. I do not buy to collect, I buy to play. More people playing the better I say.

Also, this is a demon of their own making. It was going to happen eventually with situations as they are. This was always an eventuality and that, that amuses me to no end.

I'm with Dice_Box here. While the fakes are overall bad for the game, change needs to happen.

Wizards' current business model is smart, but exploitative as hell and not indefinitely sustainable. Churn out a shitty premium product, but put an expensive staple card into it, and call it a day. Due to the horrendous secondary market prices, people will buy it, even if your friendly LGS next door charges 200% extra because hey, why the fuck not?

That's the thing that makes people bitter - not earnest players who build up a collection to play the fucking game, but hoarders and speculators who abuse MtG as some kind of stock market for nerds. And it only gets worse since Wizards intentions have become crystal clear lately - (re)prints in low numbers for artifical scarcity to keep prices high to further their money machine under the pretense of "protecting the collectors". Or did you really believe the Mind Seize pack with both Baleful Strix and TNN was coincidence? Wizards just claims "Oops, we're sorry." and is just going to do it the next time again with another equal crappy "Shit happens" apology.

The problem wouldn't even exist or be at least less severe if e.g. staples like Duals were only 20 bucks, instead of almost 200$ like Underground Sea. But I see it like Higgs - many people who try to get their hands on these cards are probably not going to play them, but try to sell them for a quick buck.

[PirateKing]

The course to which this discussion has shifted is fascinating. Perhaps it is shortsighted of me, but the game has always been just that, and never treated any higher by me. A game that is fun. That's what got me to play all those years back, what brought be to Legacy, what keeps me here. It would appear as though I am a minority in this, or at best among some silent majority. But for those calling quits and cashing out while the cashing is good, why really were you ever here? Is somehow that the game pieces used are no longer valued at the same amount detract from the game being played? Can it really be so foreign to love Legacy for the scale of play, regardless of whatever background monetary incentive arise? I'm all set post nuclear holocaust to play by candlelight, knowing full well I could never barter any amount of dual lands for food and water. Because, and I honestly believe this, that is not the point.
I am prepared to stand by and watch all cards drop in value to stock material prices and say money well spent. Was it a lot of money? You know it. But what did it get me? Years of enjoyment. And nothing currently occurring has any chance of stopping years to come. And really, am I that alone in feeling this way? Were all of my peers playing a different game entirely?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The course to which this discussion has shifted is fascinating. Perhaps it is shortsighted of me, but the game has always been just that, and never treated any higher by me. A game that is fun. That's what got me to play all those years back, what brought be to Legacy, what keeps me here. It would appear as though I am a minority in this, or at best among some silent majority. But for those calling quits and cashing out while the cashing is good, why really were you ever here? Is somehow that the game pieces used are no longer valued at the same amount detract from the game being played? Can it really be so foreign to love Legacy for the scale of play, regardless of whatever background monetary incentive arise? I'm all set post nuclear holocaust to play by candlelight, knowing full well I could never barter any amount of dual lands for food and water. Because, and I honestly believe this, that is not the point.
I am prepared to stand by and watch all cards drop in value to stock material prices and say money well spent. Was it a lot of money? You know it. But what did it get me? Years of enjoyment. And nothing currently occurring has any chance of stopping years to come. And really, am I that alone in feeling this way? Were all of my peers playing a different game entirely?

I will cash out when the prices are high, then buy the same cards after the bubble bursts. This way I'd have fun with MtG and buttloads of money. Sounds good. Do whatever you wish to do.

[ramanujan]

Goddamn some people are digging deep here trying to justify this bullshit.

Look, adult hobbies are expensive. Almost everything worth doing is expensive. I got into riding bikes this summer and easily spend $1000 on that. I have easily put $2000 into skimboards, bodyboards, wetsuits, and other equipment from living at the beach for a decade. Snowboarding is like $50 a lift ticket + hundreds to thousands in gear. Movies cost $10 a pop in theaters. Skydiving is $50+ a drop. Taking girls on dates is expensive (well depends how you play it but you get the point). I know many people who have bought $1000 worth of video games over the past 5 years easily. Many have dropped hundreds to thousands on WoW or LoL. I can't seem to leave the bar without my wallet being $30-50 lighter.

Every adult hobby is expensive, the difference with Magic was I could buy into a Legacy deck @ $1500 and years later when I'm done with it there was some confidence I could turn around and sell it and a fair percentage of my money back or more. There is very few hobbies where that's a thing. You think my used skimboard is worth the $400 I paid for it now 3 years later, you must be smoking crystal I might get $75-100 if I'm lucky. People get pissy because they don't want to drop money to get into Legacy but will happily throw money away elsewhere (cough Standard) because they are short sighted. In the long run over the past many years Legacy has been the LEAST EXPENSIVE HOBBY on the planet because the cards have mostly gone up or stayed the same. I'd like to see any hobby you do for 5 years and be able to cash out anywhere near the money you put in. Still people complain all the time like they don't fucking drop stacks on Standard and buy every video game on Steam. People just want it all for nothing and if they can justify getting it like that they pounce all over it. I would've been fine personally if my collection took a hit and it actually increased the health of the format. I bought the cards to play the game, as they say, and it's whatever. This will kill the format though. If there is no confidence you can sell out of the game it's going to absolutely kill legitimate Legacy and all that will be left is people who don't care because all their shit is bootleg anyways.

The way some people are foaming at the mouths like hungry jackals over this is embarrassing. I wonder if these people buy bikes that are priced "too good to be true" on craigslist knowing they are stolen, to backpack on earlier analogies. "I mean fuck it the bike's already been stolen, can't unsteal it. Owner probably should have locked it up better. It's not hurting the store anyways, they already sold the bike and the guy who lost his will buy another one." That's pretty much the mentality I'm hearing from a lot of people and to be honest that's what's undermining my confidence in the game MUCH MORE than any amount of counterfeits could if people were actively against them. Lots of entitled kids wanting something for nothing and expecting everyone else to keep buying from legitimate suppliers to pick up the slack while at the same time they undermine the concept of buying from legitimate suppliers. Yeah, that's going to work out great. It's a shame too, I made a decision recently that I was going to keep my cards even though I could use the money elsewhere. It's taken me since middle school (Revised) to build up to finally owning a Power 9 set and it felt like quite the accomplishment, but now I see it more as a liability with the toxic mentality of the average player I just don't see this game existing in a healthy state 5-10 years from now like I used to.

dontbiteitholmes,

Your post was one of the best I have seen here in months. I don't always subscibe to your opinions but I do here. Bravo. Fakes are a plague that affects many hobbies. I have no respect for anyone that supports fakes in any way. Integrity is paramount in a collectible hobby. I like that there is B&M storres. I like SCG events. I like that cards are worth more than the stock they are printed on. Perhaps you (dontbiteitholmes) and I are now dinosoars in the world today.

I feel that there is value in rarity, collectibility, and nostalgia. This applies to all cards in some way, not just out of print cards. I have a feeling like a fair number of the younger folks would rather find some way to cheat the system (via printing your own or hiring an overseas company adept at faking mtg cards) than support the hobby in a legitimate manner. Personally, those methods of cheating the system make me sick. I also collect coints and can state that similar intentioned ideas (counterfiting, cleaning, whizzing, ect coins) has ruined many coins and has caused the legitimate collectors time, money, and headaches.

Peace

[PirateKing]

Do whatever you wish to do.

As always to you as well.

[(nameless one)]

This thread reminds me of the True Name Nemesis thread. Different context but the same flaming and trolling.

The Source: Your Source for Flaming


Back on topic: I wonder if they can make it so you can print older cards with MTGO holiday cube art. It's definitely fake but it should be fun for EDH or Cube.

[Zombie]

If I want a bike I will pay for it at a store that has many makes, brands and prices. If I want to play magic I have no such options. I have one brand, all the shops sell them at roughly the same price and at will increase that price. It's a bubble that has to burst. Supply meets demand. We all want it, then let Wizards print it. If they can't or won't, let another brand step in.

To be honest, I am sick of my friends cashing out and watching legacy slowly die. This bull shit can be ovoided. It only takes a backbone from Wizards, some honest pricing from stores and online retailers. If they don't want to do that, then let them reap what they sow.

I am not going to go out of my way to buy these, but I am happy that the bubble will burst and we might actually see some kind reasonable discourse from all involved. Those using the game as a stock market, those ripping players new ass holes, this was a long time coming. If there was any other way I would embrace it but there is not. So if this is it, if this is the way to make this game a GAME again and not a stock exchange, then so be it.

It might not be right, but it's all we got to put a stop to massive monopolistic issues that Plague this game.

The correct analogy here is not that you want to ride a bike. The correct analogy here is that you want to ride a specific brand of bike that they don't sell for cheap. The analogy for riding a bike is wanting to play a strategic 1v1 card game with player-built decks, more or less, or a 1v1 card game in general. For that, there are options. I've been investigating Android:Netrunner myself. Interesting game and way, way cheaper than Magic. Everything ever printed for it in two years is like a couple dual lands' worth.

Of course, this being a multiplayer game really screws comparisons up because network effects are involved - you don't get that much benefit from someone else riding the same brand of bike, but you do benefit from people riding bikes in general. In games, it's pretty game-specific. A Netrunner community existing isn't that beneficial to me as a Magic player, and vice versa. I'd really advise playing multiple games - it's what helps break the stranglehold of having to play that game everyone else plays.

Wizards knew there was a large and growing demand for legacy cards and chose not to do a thing about it. Now its time to pay the devil its due.

This is pretty much how things are. If there's demand for something, it will inevitably be served whether criminal or not.

[r3dd09]

I'm actually quite sick of the argument legacy is to expensive to play. Just get a job, don't go out every weekend,
go to less restaurants and save money.

I agree with you. Most of my friends play Magic, and they're all amazed at what stuff I have and how I can spend so much money on it. We all basically make the same amount of money. Secret is: I don't drink, smoke, party, have sushi 1+ times a week. I stick to 1 or two video games, and not freak out during steam sales. I'm living at home and I'm single. There is so much +EV there.

Koby and Matt know how I am with Magic. In one week, contemplating selling out the next... Which is true as of last night, but I'm here to stay... for now. I thought of selling out just to not have to worry, but, I shouldn't have a problem selling my goodies as they all have good track records, and having a good name in the high end community also helps. Think of Occam, We would trust him 100% with anything he has. While I'm not saying I'm as big or as reputable as him, but you get my point.

To be honest, I'm going to take advantage of everyone selling out. My intention was to sell a large amount of stuff in Sac next weekend (extra collections I picked up) and finish off my beta dual set, but I might just try and get every collection from every person selling out.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

dontbiteitholmes,

Your post was one of the best I have seen here in months. I don't always subscibe to your opinions but I do here. Bravo. Fakes are a plague that affects many hobbies. I have no respect for anyone that supports fakes in any way. Integrity is paramount in a collectible hobby. I like that there is B&M storres. I like SCG events. I like that cards are worth more than the stock they are printed on. Perhaps you (dontbiteitholmes) and I are now dinosoars in the world today.

I feel that there is value in rarity, collectibility, and nostalgia. This applies to all cards in some way, not just out of print cards. I have a feeling like a fair number of the younger folks would rather find some way to cheat the system (via printing your own or hiring an overseas company adept at faking mtg cards) than support the hobby in a legitimate manner. Personally, those methods of cheating the system make me sick. I also collect coints and can state that similar intentioned ideas (counterfiting, cleaning, whizzing, ect coins) has ruined many coins and has caused the legitimate collectors time, money, and headaches.

Peace

Ok, so if I don't want to pay USD 100 for a piece of cardboard without which I can't play my deck, what is your advice? But no more "nostalgia, respect, hobbies, fun, bikes" etc. A practical advice "find a better job" or "get out of our format" or "handpick garbage cans" or w/e, but no metaphysical speeches about sentimental value of our cards and tehe joy of collecting.
I play a strategical (card)board game. The amount of fun (moreover declining ever since Mental Missetp and bros.) is not worth the money. I'd play the game if it would be cheaper, I'd keep the cards I got, if I wouldn't need to purchase USD hundreds/thousands worthy of new cards annualy just to stay competitive, etc. Considering the game-design trend of MtG and the danger of new fakes and the need to waste 100 USD if you need fourth Tundra et cetera et cetera, I decided to leave.
Part of this is due to WotC's inability to reprint the old cards or to print the new ones in reasonable numbers. It's not only becasue of that and I don't blame them for things they can't affect, but there are things they could have done, but they gave up.
I love your example with coins collectors. Wizards should have known better. Really, turn the game pieces into Roman Denarii and then look in awe that ppl falsificate them, oh surprise, wait, not really...

I really can't understand what's so amazing about the fact that our game pieces are expensive. Ok, there will be no more Roman Empire to make their coins, so I guess that it's fine that their ancient money are valuable. But WotC still exist and they may print the rooks, bishops and....

[CHORUS]
"No way, there's that Promise of the Reserved List. No more bishops. We protect the collectors!
[CHORUS]

Yep, except that the RL might be the reason for the fakes that... guess what... will harm the collectors.

[Arsenal]

I'm living at home and I'm single.

If you're living at home and not paying for many/any household bills, then you have far more disposable income then the vast majority of adults (that, you know, don't live with mommy and daddy). And if you don't have a girlfriend, then that ups your disposable income even more. So... if you're a single guy that lives at home with his parents, you can afford to play Legacy. Got it.

[ramanujan]

Ok, so if I don't want to pay USD 100 for a piece of cardboard without which I can't play my deck, what is your advice? But no more "nostalgia, respect, hobbies, fun, bikes" etc. A practical advice "find a better job" or "get out of our format" or "handpick garbage cans" or w/e, but no metaphysical speeches about sentimental value of our cards and tehe joy of collecting.
I play a strategical (card)board game. The amount of fun (moreover declining ever since Mental Missetp and bros.) is not worth the money. I'd play the game if it would be cheaper, I'd keep the cards I got, if I wouldn't need to purchase USD hundreds/thousands worthy of new cards annualy just to stay competitive, etc. Considering the game-design trend of MtG and the danger of new fakes and the need to waste 100 USD if you need fourth Tundra et cetera et cetera, I decided to leave.
Part of this is due to WotC's inability to reprint the old cards or to print the new ones in reasonable numbers. It's not only becasue of that and I don't blame them for things they can't affect, but there are things they could have done, but they gave up.
I love your example with coins collectors. Wizards should have known better. Really, turn the game pieces into Roman Denarii and then look in awe that ppl falsificate them, oh surprise, wait, not really...

I really can't understand what's so amazing about the fact that our game pieces are expensive. Ok, there will be no more Roman Empire to make their coins, so I guess that it's fine that their ancient money are valuable. But WotC still exist and they may print the rooks, bishops and....

[CHORUS]
"No way, there's that Promise of the Reserved List. No more bishops. We protect the collectors!
[CHORUS]

Yep, except that the RL might be the reason for the fakes that... guess what... will harm the collectors.

A simple response to your simple question. Use proxies. How many money no proxy tournaments do you attend anyway. The community, as far as I know, could care less if you play casually using proxies (the obvious proxies). You were blatently dismissing the issue of collectibility so that you could point out a problem you are having with having cards to play with. I have 3 words, collectible card game. You may not like it. It may get under your skin. It may even prevent you from playing the deck you want to at a big tournament... but it is a collectible card game.

Another silly point to make. Wizards (or Hasbro, if you like) prints Magic cards. Everyone else prints fakes. Too many people here are treating the two as if they are identical. One has a place in our community. The other is illegal (if done within the US). This isn't prohibition. During the 20s, illegal booze was still booze. This is more akin to fake jewelry. Unfortunately, due to the cohort represented here I doubt that fake jewelry matters too much. When you get married, if you choose to buy jewelry, you expect authenticity. When I buy magic cards, I expect the same level of authenticity.

My opinion is that everyone here should as well. It is a slippery slope if we, as a community, waiver on this.