No love for Zoo?

[nodahero]

For your expected meta I don't hate your list... why the Mancers though?

I am not an aggro player really, but the 2 points of burn seems ehh against those decks.

Would two knights perhaps be more useful? Your opponent has probablly burned through his Paths by the time your casting a knight and he survives most other removal.

[Mr. Safety]

Mancers are repeatable removal and reach. Its good against tribals and tokens, and helps bolt kill bigger things when path isn't available. On average he does 4 damage a game. I also like how he can help finish off pw's. Its a crossover from legacy that I think makes sense.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Mr. Safety - I'm curious as to why you have a 4/2 split of Loam Lion vs Kird Ape. Your list is heavier on red, so why not run more Apes and fewer Lions?

[Mr. Safety]

I'm trying to get the other 2 apes before the event, but this is what I have in case I don't find them.

EDIT: The store hosting the tourney has a pair, so I bought them and I'll pick them up on saturday. :-D

[FTW]

I'm trying to get the other 2 apes before the event, but this is what I have in case I don't find them.

As someone who has been playing since Revised was in print, I never thought I'd see the day when someone said they were running a proxy for Kird Ape. You made my day :)

[Mr. Safety]

Just how I roll man...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Mr. Safety - I have never played Zoo in Modern. Now that that disclaimer is out of the way, I did play Speed Zoo in Legacy on and off until relatively recently (the upsurge in Miracles and the printing of TNN put the final nail in that coffin). Somebody mentioned Experiment One earlier - the card is insane, especially with Vexing Devil. The closest approximation of my Legacy list would look something like this I think:

4 Experiment One
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
3 Rift Bolt/Pillar of Flame/whatever

20-21 lands

The loss of Price of Progress (and a large chunk of the sideboard) is a huge blow, but otherwise the deck is mostly intact. The plan is to play 3 one-drops on turn 1 and 2, and then use Goyfs, Rampagers, and Burn to push through stalemates in the mid game. In Legacy I had numerous turn 3-4 kills with this deck, sometimes your opponent just isn't prepared and gets overrun. Ghor-Clan is insane, people don't usually see it coming and it turns a chump block into massive damage. I also won some games from hard-casting it, a 4/4 trampler is still kind of big. I'm not really sure if this kind of approach would work in Modern because of the different format dynamics, but it might be worth experimenting (no pun intended) with.

[FTW]

Mr. Safety - I have never played Zoo in Modern. Now that that disclaimer is out of the way, I did play Speed Zoo in Legacy on and off until relatively recently (the upsurge in Miracles and the printing of TNN put the final nail in that coffin). Somebody mentioned Experiment One earlier - the card is insane, especially with Vexing Devil. The closest approximation of my Legacy list would look something like this I think:

4 Experiment One
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
3 Rift Bolt/Pillar of Flame/whatever

20-21 lands

The loss of Price of Progress (and a large chunk of the sideboard) is a huge blow, but otherwise the deck is mostly intact. The plan is to play 3 one-drops on turn 1 and 2, and then use Goyfs, Rampagers, and Burn to push through stalemates in the mid game. In Legacy I had numerous turn 3-4 kills with this deck, sometimes your opponent just isn't prepared and gets overrun. Ghor-Clan is insane, people don't usually see it coming and it turns a chump block into massive damage. I also won some games from hard-casting it, a 4/4 trampler is still kind of big. I'm not really sure if this kind of approach would work in Modern because of the different format dynamics, but it might be worth experimenting (no pun intended) with.

Looks strong, and looks a lot better than trying to cast Kird Apes.

I would go to the 4th rampager and -1 Rift Bolt/land. That card is amazing for screwing up combat math, especially when you need your 1-drops to compete with bigger drops. You just swing with everything every turn, leaving 2-mana up. Do they block? Do they let it through? Even if bluffing you can use that mana to EOT burn so you don't lose a beat. It's only really bad if you draw 3-4 in your opener, but that's pretty unlikely and mulligans are possible. Also not an awful fatty for 4 mana that triggers Experiment. Modern has more creatures than Legacy so it should have even more value here.

Rift Bolt seems better in G1, with Pillar boardable.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Looks strong, and looks a lot better than trying to cast Kird Apes.

I would go to the 4th rampager and -1 Rift Bolt/land. That card is amazing for screwing up combat math, especially when you need your 1-drops to compete with bigger drops. You just swing with everything every turn, leaving 2-mana up. Do they block? Do they let it through? Even if bluffing you can use that mana to EOT burn so you don't lose a beat. It's only really bad if you draw 3-4 in your opener, but that's pretty unlikely and mulligans are possible. Also not an awful fatty for 4 mana that triggers Experiment. Modern has more creatures than Legacy so it should have even more value here.

Rift Bolt seems better in G1, with Pillar boardable.

It was definitely strong (I had an undefeated record against Storm combo lol), but the meta kind of passed it by in Legacy. Too much BS was printed in Avacyn block. I tested Kird Ape and it was bad, despite the synergy with Experiment One. Ghor-Clan is good although 4 might be a bit much, testing could clear that up. The problem with it is it doesn't solve "in response to declare attackers, remove your guy". Qsali Pridemage is the one creature missing from this list that I want in it, perhaps as a sideboard card. I'm not sure what else is good sideboard material in Modern, perhaps Destructive Revelry?

[FTW]

It was definitely strong (I had an undefeated record against Storm combo lol), but the meta kind of passed it by in Legacy. Too much BS was printed in Avacyn block. I tested Kird Ape and it was bad, despite the synergy with Experiment One. Ghor-Clan is good although 4 might be a bit much, testing could clear that up. The problem with it is it doesn't solve "in response to declare attackers, remove your guy". Qsali Pridemage is the one creature missing from this list that I want in it, perhaps as a sideboard card. I'm not sure what else is good sideboard material in Modern, perhaps Destructive Revelry?

Between Affinity, Kiki-Pod, Splinter Twin, Melira Pod, Tron... there are plenty of enchantments and artifacts to hit. Either Revelry or Pridemage seems good SB. Maybe Reverly just because your plan hinges on laying multiple 1 drops and Pridemage kind of clogs that up, does nothing with Exalted and costs more to Disenchant. Leonin Relic-Warder is another option with a body, sees play in monowhite decks, maybe too awkward a cost and too fragile for Zoo.

Scavenging Ooze is good. Maybe 1-2 SB and some other gravehate like Relic or Rest in Peace (boarding out Goyfs then), but that may take too much aggro out of your deck.

Tron is a thing and UWR Control leans a little heavy on Celestial Colonnade. In a format without Wasteland, decks do silly things with nonbasics. Some people like to board into land destruction. Molten Rain is an option. Or Fulminator Mage. Most of the time you can probably outrace Tron, but T3 Wurmcoil on the play can make it pretty hard to push through.

Domri Rade may be good for gas.

Bonfire of the Damned seems good against weenie decks, particularly Soul Sisters, but also Affinity and stuff. Other options would be Searing Blaze, Arc Trail, or Searing Blood.

Modern plays significantly more lifegain than Legacy, which can be a pain in the arse for an aggro deck. Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloth, Wurmcoil Engine, Soul Sisters, Batterskull, Timely Reinforcements, Lightning Helix. Skullcrack, Flames of the Blood Hand or something similar may help a lot to push through damage while countering their attempts at stabilizing.

[Mr. Safety]

I appreciate the comments fellas, but please don't confuse formats. Pillar is absolutely maindeckable simply due to pod. Knights and domri are big zoo territory, not the angle I'm going for. Goblin guide feeds land drops into a turn 3-4 anger of the gods/supreme verdict. The simple truth is that the kird animals are a neccessary evil to facilitate a turn one play into a turn 2 rampager. Vexing devil is ok with experiment one, but I don"t like that many conditional creatures. Xone just isn't wild nacatl, not in my opinion.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I think Experiment One is probably were little/aggro Zoo wants to be. It's really solid in that it sort of plays the role of Wild Nacatl copies 5-8. I actually contemplated Burning-Tree Emissary solely because of Experiment One. The best opener is basically turn one Experiment One; turn 2 Burning-Tree (evolve), Wild Nacatl (evolve), Vexing Devil (evolve), swing for 4. The biggest issues I had with BTE were that you didn't necessarily have that many creatures to chain into with the green mana and I tend to think Vexing Devil is sort of garbage in this type of deck. It also really skews the deck toward being more of a R/G aggro deck that might splash white just for Path to Exile and Lightning Helix.

On a somewhat different note, I've really liked Domain Zoo in the past (Tribal Flames is my favorite burn spell). The issue that I have in current Modern is that I don't really know if the domain mana base is worth it. It's more painful, more fragile, and it seems the only thing you really gain is Tribal Flames. I used to run Might of Alara, but without a double-striker, it's less impressive, and Ghor-Clan Rampager sort of fills this role now. So, I guess my question is, if you were go to with Domain Zoo, do you run anything in the maindeck that uses the Blue or Black mana? I've seen lists with Geist of Saint Traft, but I don't really like attaching a tertiary color (blue) to a secondary color (white). I couldn't think of anything black to run in the main, though there are some interesting sideboard options.

[FTW]

Re: Mr Safety, my comments and card suggestions were directed towards Admiral's list. Wouldn't necessarily work in yours. Though you're right, Domri Rade is probably bad in any version of 1-drop Zoo.

Is Pod alone enough to justify potentially slowing down your game 1 goldfish with Pillar instead of a Bolt effect? I get that Pod is a thing, but it's only one deck, and not necessarily a huge part of the meta. I assume you're talking about the Melira win, which takes more pieces and is harder to assemble than the Kiki win and gives you a chance to just beat face through them? Or do you mean getting rid of Finks, which lets them stall? Scavenging Ooze does that too while giving you a beater. Worth including?

really liked Domain Zoo in the past (Tribal Flames is my favorite burn spell). The issue that I have in current Modern is that I don't really know if the domain mana base is worth it. It's more painful, more fragile, and it seems the only thing you really gain is Tribal Flames. I used to run Might of Alara, but without a double-striker, it's less impressive, and Ghor-Clan Rampager sort of fills this role now. So, I guess my question is, if you were go to with Domain Zoo, do you run anything in the maindeck that uses the Blue or Black mana? I've seen lists with Geist of Saint Traft, but I don't really like attaching a tertiary color (blue) to a secondary color (white). I couldn't think of anything black to run in the main, though there are some interesting sideboard options.

I don't see merit in splashing two colors just for Tribal Flames. I guess you could just run a singleton Watery Grave, then get it with Misty Rainforest/Verdant Catacombs (i.e. your green fetch) and Scalding Tarn/Marsh Flats if you run any additional R/W fetches beyond Mesa. That doesn't actually involve changing your fetchland configuration and only adds one "dead" land to the deck. But it would suck to draw in your opener, is basically a wasted land drop when fetched, makes you softer against Blue Moon... All that to deal 5 damage for 2 mana?

Why not just run 1-2 Thunderous Wrath and Miracle blast them for 1 mana? Or Vexing Devil to deal 4 for 1 (albeit inconsistently and not at creatures)? Or Boros Charm to deal 4 for 2? 1 less damage with the bonus of a combat trick and wrath protection. Doesn't seem that bad. Meanwhile Tribal Flames would only deal 1-3 damage without Watery Grave on the field, making it highly conditional. Boros Charm seems like the much better alternative.

[Mr. Safety]

Finks are the biggest reason, but podding into eternal witness/reveillark is also an issue. Exile effects are a simple necessity. Its a path to exile that can be 2 damage in a pinch. Its also nice to have a way to clear blockers early whilst saving the heavier-hitting bolt/helix/rift bolt for their face.

I would also rather topdeck a pillar late game than a path, especially if its that last 2 damage I need to win.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Why not just run 1-2 Thunderous Wrath and Miracle blast them for 1 mana? Or Vexing Devil to deal 4 for 1 (albeit inconsistently and not at creatures)? Or Boros Charm to deal 4 for 2? 1 less damage with the bonus of a combat trick and wrath protection. Doesn't seem that bad. Meanwhile Tribal Flames would only deal 1-3 damage without Watery Grave on the field, making it highly conditional. Boros Charm seems like the much better alternative.

I really can't get on board with Thunderous Wrath in a deck with no top-deck manipulation. Vexing Devil is a card I'm really a back and forth on. He's a lot better with Experiment One in the mix, but he's a "punisher" card, and I'd rather not give my opponent the choice. I do kind of think that Boros Charm is the replacement for Tribal Flames. It's one less damage and a slightly more prohibitive mana cost, but for much added flexibility. I think I'll probably be going straight Naya for the extent that I play Zoo for the next while.

[Asthereal]

Played my first ever (partly) Modern event yesterday, and I had built UR Delver but of course the banning of Cruise messed up that plan, so I decided to sleeve up some sort of Zoo deck. I believe what I built should be called Naya Blitz, and I would like to run it past you guys, because I think it's good, but nowhere near optimal. Here's the list I ran:

NAYA BLITZ (Asthereal, jan. 25th 2015)

4 Experiment One
4 Wild Nacat
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf.
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Flinthoof Boar
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager /29

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Path to Exile /13

2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ari Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills /18

Side:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Path to Exile
2 Electrickery
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge /15

I won the only relevant match I played 2-1 against a Tron/Mud-ish deck, enabling me to double-ID into top-8, but I played both other matches for fun (against Junk and Splinter Twin combo) and won both 2-1 as well. The deck felt good, but it still needs a lot of work. Do you guys have any suggestions?

[CaptainTwiddle]

Played my first ever (partly) Modern event yesterday, and I had built UR Delver but of course the banning of Cruise messed up that plan, so I decided to sleeve up some sort of Zoo deck. I believe what I built should be called Naya Blitz, and I would like to run it past you guys, because I think it's good, but nowhere near optimal. Here's the list I ran:

NAYA BLITZ (Asthereal, jan. 25th 2015)

4 Experiment One
4 Wild Nacat
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf.
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
2 Flinthoof Boar
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager /29

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
2 Pillar of Flame
3 Path to Exile /13

2 Stomping Ground
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Ari Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills /18

Side:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Path to Exile
2 Electrickery
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge /15

I won the only relevant match I played 2-1 against a Tron/Mud-ish deck, enabling me to double-ID into top-8, but I played both other matches for fun (against Junk and Splinter Twin combo) and won both 2-1 as well. The deck felt good, but it still needs a lot of work. Do you guys have any suggestions?

How was Forked Bolt for you? I'm just not sure if it's really optimal for the format. I'd probably swap one of them for the 4th Path to Exile.

I had been brewing Naya Blitz list at one point, then kind of set it aside. Burning-Tree Emissary is a hard card to evaluate. It allows for some really broken starts, but it's really underwhelming after first 2-3 turns. You might want to consider Vexing Devil, as it allow the "dream" play of turn 1 Experiment One, turn 2 Burning-Tree Emissary (evolve), Wild Nacatl (evolve), Vexing Devil (evolve), swing with a 4/4 Experiment One (Goblin Guide also fits nicely in there, despite not triggering evolve).

[Asthereal]

Thanks for the reply!

Forked Bolt was pretty good actually. Against the two non-creature decks it of course was just a 2 damage burn spell, but against Junk it killed Lingering Souls tokens like a boss, allowing my team to do the damage. I think Forked Bolt it quite good. Pillar of Flame is the one I am not sure about. I feared Kitchen Finks, that's why I played them, but they seemed underwhelming, especially since the Junk player I encountered didn't even run Finks at all.

What I found was that Ghor-Clan Rampager was also very underwhelming. I never really got to use them. I hardcast one, but then I died to Splinter Twin combo. I never got to bloodrush one. What are your experiences with the Rampagers?

EDIT: Indeed Burning-Tree Emissary is hard to evaluate. I drew one late game, which was quite bad, and I had a moment where I had it turn 2 but no rediculous follow-up, but in that case at least I got to evolve Experiment twice because my follow-up was Flinthoof Boar. The Boar was actually quite good. Okay late game draw (3/3 haste dude), and easy casting cost, though somewhat expensive for a 3/3. I am tempted to add a third, but I don't think I will since he is not good in multiples.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

I brewed up a dark zoo list today:

4 Wild Nacatl
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Siege Rhino
3 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
1 Abrupt Decay

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Stomping Grounds
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb

I am still working on the sideboard and manabase, but I have been having trouble with the Living End matchup.

Suggestions welcome!

[zulander]

Modern discussions here are very timid. I suggest yall check out MTGSalvation since it's very active. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...?page=72#c1840

As for dark zoo I think Siege Rhino's are the new BBE since it can fill that role effectively. I personally like to stick to NAYA colors though.