UGR/RUG Delver doing poorly/Canadian Threshold

[cheerios]

So like, how is that different from any other time then?

LOL. RUG's current build just can't answer a resolved TNN. I'm not saying RUG doesn't have available answers tho.

[Megadeus]

Silklash Spider!!!

[Mewens]

Man, I'd wet myself if some Legacy brew playing Sylvan Basilisks and Silklash Spiders with Intruder Alarm and Tangleroot and Glimpse of Nature ended up being this insurmountable matchup for TNN.

It would literally be the single greatest thing ever. I'm counting electricity and sex in that equation.

[Erdvermampfa]

One thing that bothers me is that it would require a whole shift of their B&R policy to get TNN banned since other stuff like Show and Tell (Griselbrand) is way more detrimental to the health of the format but doesn't get the treatment it deserves (ban). I think ever since Misstep their policy has been one of cautious reservation because they believe Legacy could fix itself. And indeed, it managed to to do so for some time, but now with TNN and partly with Griselbrand, Ominiscience, EtI etc. the ridiculous shit started to take overhand and the game became more and more unenjoyable. I think we have to start to acknowledge that disproportional meta prevalence shouldn't be the sole reason to ban a card.

[Barook]

One thing that bothers me is that it would require a whole shift of their B&R policy to get TNN banned since other stuff like Show and Tell (Griselbrand) is way more detrimental to the health of the format but doesn't get the treatment it deserves (ban). I think ever since Misstep their policy has been one of cautious reservation because they believe Legacy could fix itself. And indeed, it managed to to do so for some time, but now with TNN and partly with Griselbrand, Ominiscience, EtI etc. the ridiculous shit started to take overhand and the game became more and more unenjoyable. I think we have to start to acknowledge that disproportional meta prevalence shouldn't be the sole reason to ban a card.

They have already laid the foundation before - here's a hint: "Gentleman's agreement"

TNN makes Magic an extremely miserable experience. Not that Griselbanned or Omniscience are any better. S&T is a pretty bad offender as well, but at least you can interact with your opponent at some level. Hell, I've recently beaten a game with D&T where my opponent had Omniscience and Griselbrand in play. Or a match against Patriot Delver - in G2, he didn't draw a single TNN and it was a fantastic, interactive and enjoyable 30+ minutes game while I died like a bitch in G3, simply because he jammed down double TNN.

The format would be alot more fun with TNN (and S&T) gone.

[twndomn]

They have already laid the foundation before - here's a hint: "Gentleman's agreement"

The format would be alot more fun with TNN (and S&T) gone.

While I understand your sentiment, I don't agree with the conclusion. Yes, S&T should be considered for the ban. No, TNN is not. The problem with TNN is that lots of Magic players, not necessarily Legacy players, would stop playing Legacy because they are facing the question: do you join the TNN-bandwagon or do you try to hate it? You have to prepare for it. Either your Legacy deck will ignore it because it's combo, or you have to address TNN somehow. That's Not what lots of Magic players in other format would want to do. I hate it when people've told me that they had their pet Legacy deck(s) and now they don't want to attend local Legacy events anymore because TNN.

[ajfennewald]

While I understand your sentiment, I don't agree with the conclusion. Yes, S&T should be considered for the ban. No, TNN is not. The problem with TNN is that lots of Magic players, not necessarily Legacy players, would stop playing Legacy because they are facing the question: do you join the TNN-bandwagon or do you try to hate it? You have to prepare for it. Either your Legacy deck will ignore it because it's combo, or you have to address TNN somehow. That's Not what lots of Magic players in other format would want to do. I hate it when people've told me that they had their pet Legacy deck(s) and now they don't want to attend local Legacy events anymore because TNN.

Alot of legacy players play primary for enjoyment. If a deck they enjoy is not competitive or they don't have access to a competive deck they enjoy they won't play. As TNN is a card few enjoy I would like to see it banned. I play it in my own deck but I still hate it. Is it oppressive no. It is however counter to the reasons I play legacy in the first place.

[ironclad8690]

The RUG players can come hang out with the Maverick players in the tier 1 has been thread don't forget your Coping with not being Tier 1 Orientation Manual

[Norm]

Yes, S&T should be considered for the ban. No, TNN is not

TNN is a banworthy card because it's not interactive in the slightest, it's warping the metagame in a similar way that MM did.

P.S: Banning S&T would only hurt legacy. The card is powerful and so are many others, it's a strategy that opponents can interact with and the only real complaints come from players with a few bad beats stories that love to forget the many times they killed those S&T decks while their opponent cantripped for a few turns and lost a counterspell fight before they died. If we banned S&T today, Storm would start to come into question "Well, they banned S&T because it was too strong and storm is such a blah blah blah" you get the point.

Ban cards because they warp the format heavily, don't ask for bannings because you personally had a rough beats case against a deck that creeps up into top spots here and there before getting crushed into oblivion by preparation.

Oh, and ban Bridge from Below because I can't beat it without graveyard hate cards /sarcasm

[Dark Ritual]

This is a stupid thing to say. TNN is a banworthy card because it's not interactive in the slightest, it's warping the metagame in a similar way that MM did.

P.S: Banning S&T would only hurt legacy. The card is powerful and so are many others, it's a strategy that opponents can interact with and the only real complaints come from players with a few bad beats stories that love to forget the many times they killed those S&T decks while their opponent cantripped for a few turns and lost a counterspell fight before they died. If we banned S&T today, Storm would start to come into question "Well, they banned S&T because it was too strong and storm is such a blah blah blah" you get the point.

Ban cards because they warp the format heavily, don't ask for bannings because you personally had a rough beats case against a deck that creeps up into top spots here and there before getting crushed into oblivion by preparation.

Oh, and ban Bridge from Below because I can't beat it without graveyard hate cards /sarcasm

You can prepare for anything. But can you prepare for everything? Not even remotely when it comes to a format like legacy with over 10,000 unique cards available in the card pool as well as a wide swath of strategies. There's also one gigantic difference between storm combo and show and tell. Winning with a show and tell deck is literally the EASIEST thing to do in legacy. I show and telled emrakul in, my opponent lacked an answer so they died to spaghetti. Show and telled griselbrand, invalidating my opponents entire strategy because fuck you I have a 7/7 flying lifelinker. In storm you actually have to know your deck in order to win the game and the interactions. Storm isn't the easiest archetype to master.

RUG was obsolete during misstep due to how dead it was to the card. As for how good it is right now, the answer is that it is no longer the number 1 deck. In a few months it will have dropped off even further all due to TNN. TNN is subtly warping the metagame around itself and I would be surprised if it didn't get the axe honestly. As for RUG beating a resolved TNN, good luck with the current list. Need 2 goyfs to get past TNN and that isn't happening when the opponent swords to plowshares or blocks + bolts a goyf or simply races via batterskull beatdown. Delver flies over and that is the only way but as soon as TNN hooks up to something delver isn't going to get you there as SoFaI bolts flipped delver quite effectively, feast and famine races effectively, and skull is actually just a vigilant baneslayer angel against RUG without flying/game over.

[Zombie]

You can prepare for anything. But can you prepare for everything? Not even remotely when it comes to a format like legacy with over 10,000 unique cards available in the card pool as well as a wide swath of strategies. There's also one gigantic difference between storm combo and show and tell. Winning with a show and tell deck is literally the EASIEST thing to do in legacy. I show and telled emrakul in, my opponent lacked an answer so they died to spaghetti. Show and telled griselbrand, invalidating my opponents entire strategy because fuck you I have a 7/7 flying lifelinker. In storm you actually have to know your deck in order to win the game and the interactions. Storm isn't the easiest archetype to master.

This. Losing to SnT just feels dumb, and the deck is really binary too. It's 100% dead or you're 100% dead. With engine decks there's just more nuance, the interactions are less absolute and binary. Or to put the feeling in other words, the game feels like a farce. Same kind of vibe with TNN.

RUG was obsolete during misstep due to how dead it was to the card. As for how good it is right now, the answer is that it is no longer the number 1 deck. In a few months it will have dropped off even further all due to TNN. TNN is subtly warping the metagame around itself

TNN's format warping is about as subtle as a hammer to the head if you ask me.

[ESG]

RUG was obsolete during misstep due to how dead it was to the card.

Think we need a history lesson here. NO RUG was actually the dominant deck of the format during that period. This was back when the Hatfields were doing the Too Much Information series, and the results consistently showed that the deck was the top dog (and No. 2 was Stoneblade). Of course, the deck looked a little different because Delver of Secrets wasn't printed yet. The format was slower, so the deck was able to run Natural Order. The RUG that you're describing -- RUG Delver -- never coexisted with Mental Misstep.

I agree with your other points.

[Arsenal]

Think we need a history lesson here. NO RUG was actually the dominant deck of the format during that period. This was back when the Hatfields were doing the Too Much Information series, and the results consistently showed that the deck was the top dog (and No. 2 was Stoneblade). Of course, the deck looked a little different because Delver of Secrets wasn't printed yet. The format was slower, so the deck was able to run Natural Order. The RUG that you're describing -- RUG Delver -- never coexisted with Mental Misstep.

I agree with your other points.

I thought he was referring to old Canadian Threshold (the old build that only ran 4 Mongoose/4 Goyf as it's creature suite), not RUG Delver (as you pointed out, wasn't even a deck during the MM era).

[ESG]

I thought he was referring to old Canadian Threshold (the old build that only ran 4 Mongoose/4 Goyf as it's creature suite), not RUG Delver (as you pointed out, wasn't even a deck during the MM era).

Hmm. In that case, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Did Canadian Threshold just shift its angle of attack to Natural Order and evolve into NO RUG after Mental Misstep shook things up, or did people in fact consider them separate decks? If they were separate decks, then I agree that the classic 4 Goyf, 4 Mongoose build became unviable. I know Mark Sun is on these boards and ran NO RUG at that time. I wonder if he has an opinion on this.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Hmm. In that case, I guess it depends on how you look at it. Did Canadian Threshold just shift its angle of attack to Natural Order and evolve into NO RUG after Mental Misstep shook things up, or did people in fact consider them separate decks? If they were separate decks, then I agree that the classic 4 Goyf, 4 Mongoose build became unviable. I know Mark Sun is on these boards and ran NO RUG at that time. I wonder if he has an opinion on this.

They were definitely separate decks. NO RUG was a short-lived, midrange phenomenon that ran Noble Hierarch in addition to the other mentioned cards (something that has never been seen in Canadian Threshold afaik). Canadian Threshold aka "Thresh with Burn" has been around since basically the start of Legacy, the creature base has just changed over time although Mongoose has been a constant.

[carefulmug]

I'm glad the conversation has switched to NO RUG.

During Mental Misstep, Canadian was illegitimate because the top decks ran a soft CotV @ 1, and the fundamental turn of the meta had been shifted such that midrange decks were top performers.

So I've been wondering: If Canadian Thresh turns out ill-suited for a TNN//Anti-TNN meta, could NO RUG, perhaps splashing a Bayou and running DRS instead of Noble, be a solution? Not for the archetype, but at least for the color scheme?

[Megadeus]

I'm glad the conversation has switched to NO RUG.

During Mental Misstep, Canadian was illegitimate because the top decks ran a soft CotV @ 1, and the fundamental turn of the meta had been shifted such that midrange decks were top performers.

So I've been wondering: If Canadian Thresh turns out ill-suited for a TNN//Anti-TNN meta, could NO RUG, perhaps splashing a Bayou and running DRS instead of Noble, be a solution? Not for the archetype, but at least for the color scheme?

Why not just NO BUG?

[carefulmug]

For what it's worth, the reasons to run red: Red enables Burn (reach), REB/Pyro (wins counter wars, counters TNN, beats top decked SnT), and Ancient Grudge (recurrent artifact destruction).

Nonetheless, Megadeus, you make a good point. It's a slippery slope once a Bayou and a set of DRS get included. Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize are sure to follow.

It would be similar to the conversation regarding Canadian vs BURG vs BUG Delver//Team America.

[FieryBalrog]

Where does it leave Red? Pyroblast & REB, amusingly enough. Lightning Bolt was already bad against the premiere Legacy creature for years and yet settled into a good niche. It'll still have some space carved out for it.

What Red needs is a bigger slice of the color pie, really. Now that Goblins is further crippled thanks to TNN pushing -X/-X so hard, Red doesn't even have a good flagship deck.

[ESG]

@ Admiral_Arzar: Thanks for the input.

@ carefulmug: One crucial difference is that Supreme Verdict exists now to answer the Natural Order target. NO BUG might be better in that it could use Thoughtseize to strip it, but, then again, Brainstorm can play around Thoughtseize. I've tried various configurations of midrange decks running Natural Order, and I just don't think the card does enough anymore. It's great in Elves, but a midrange deck can't capitalize on Natural Order the same way as in the Misstep era.