lmao!Originally Posted by nedleeds
There was a tangent when I asked Matthias if goblins with the white splash for Thalia was Boros Goblins, he said no it was just Goblins, with a mention in the coverage that there was a splash of white. I asked why the same wasn't applied to Miracles, why it got a name stuck on, and his defense was one heard several times, orders on high. We did laugh that calling UWR American or Patriot despite many other countries using those colors was about the most American thing you could do.Bant - didn't have an identity before, heavily uses Bant cards
Esper - didn't have a real identity, either; besides, why not call it Dubstep Blade instead of WUB Control?
Grixis - no identity before - did it even exist before the shard?
Jund - came into being with RtR, thus after the shard name was established
Naya - Zoo was an established deck before, that's why it never caught on.
BUG and RUG are popular and established names, so I doubt they're going to catch on either. Patriot isn't an ideal name, but Jeskai sounds terrible. Junk has the problem that it sounds to similiar to Jund, but it's an established name - besides, Abzan is terrible. Mardu might catch on because Team Italia is a terrible name, but then again, nobody plays the worst 3-color combination.
And calling UWr Miracles "Jeskai Miracles" is just plain retarded. It's a UW deck with a few splashed red sideboard cards. What's so Jeskai about it?
Am I doing this right?
Star City Games Open - 2014/9/28 - Edison, NJ
1st: Izzet Delver
2nd: Sultai Reanimator
3rd: Karonaless Dredge
4th: Jeskai Miracles
5th: Sultai Delver
6th: Sultai Delver
7th: Karona'd Dredge
8th: Izzet Monsters
Star City Games Open - 2014/9/28 - Indianapolis, IN
1st: Golgari Elves
2nd: Abzan Elves
3rd: Golgari Elves
4th: Jund
5th: Abzan Maverick
6th: Dimir Reanimator
7th: Izzet Monsters
8th: Mono-Red Devotion
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
Jund has it's roots on Alara Reborn with the Jund-names BGR wedge and Bloodbraid Elf printed in that expansion. Zoo was dead before Alara came and completely changed the deck with printings like Wild Nacatl and Pridemage which were part of the WGR-shard named Naya. Both decks have a reason to be named after the Shards, unlike Miracles which runs Zero cards from Jeskai nor uses the related mechanic.Bant - didn't have an identity before, heavily uses Bant cards
Esper - didn't have a real identity, either; besides, why not call it Dubstep Blade instead of WUB Control?
Grixis - no identity before - did it even exist before the shard?
Jund - came into being with RtR, thus after the shard name was established
Naya - Zoo was an established deck before, that's why it never caught on.
And calling UWr Miracles "Jeskai Miracles" is just plain retarded. It's a UW deck with a few splashed red sideboard cards. What's so Jeskai about it?
The only deck I can imagine adapting the Khans-Wedge name with a bit of background can be Sultai Delver if Treasure Cruise (Sultai-Clan card) and the Delve mechanic establish there.
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The strength and solidarity of the Magic community is a beautiful sight when the topic is completely irrelevant. Keep up the excellent work.
EDIT: To add more content, I know I shouldn't be surprised, but seeing people say things like "learning these names is part of joining Legacy!" is so bizarre to me. I've never been one to care about deck names; I think that if they're going to be disseminated to the Magic community at large, they should be descriptive of the deck's strategy or colors in some fashion. In that, I think BUG Delver and Sultai Delver are both fine, but stuff like Death & Taxes isn't. I just don't understand the outrage over name changes that actually don't actually affect anyone in a negative way.
The topic is not irrelevant. The names and flavor of this game are absolutely important.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
Please tell me how naming decks for inside jokes (or whatever) which at most 20% of the audience understands is critical to the game. I understand wanting ownership of deck names if you created it, but even then, it's not something I can fathom being upset about.
The issue, it seems to me, is that the "Legacy Community" seems to want to control all facets of the format, and believes they are entitled to that because of all they have done to promote and maintain the format's growth. That's all well and good, but the fact is that SCG has helped grow the format immensely in regards to the number of players; that cannot be argued in any meaningful way. They provide 40+ events a year that they stream for free, even if they typically skip the first three rounds (which I wish they would maybe just skip round 1, letting others tag in for coverage for the early rounds), so, as pointed out, they can name decks whatever they wish on their stream. Now, that said, it has been suggested that they may be receiving some kind of pressure from WotC to use the wedge names prominently, and that is possible. It is also possible that they want consistency going forward in both Standard and Legacy deck names, so that someone who watches the stream on Saturday sees "Sultai Midrange" identifies with Sultai, and then on Sunday they see "Sultai Delver", and at least have an idea of the colors, even if they know nothing else about Legacy. It's a building block fr newer players to understand at a glance the basis of the deck, and once they see it, they'll understand going forward.
As for not doing it with the Ravnica guilds, I expect that if they were in Standard at the same time as Khans, they would use similar nomenclature for both Standard and Legacy deck names using the guild names.
Of course, I enjoy watching Legacy far more than I enjoy playing it, so whatever.
Unrelated, about the guy who got the game loss in T8 for slow play; did anyone see any of his other matches on stream? I didn't, so I can't really comment on that, but his T8 match seemed to be going at a decent pace, with no real slow play that I saw (note that I was only half paying attention at the time). Just wondering if it was obvious and I missed it or what.
I'm at work right now and quite tired after last night, so my argument may not be as compelling, but the issue you raised has to do with respect to innovation. Death and Taxes can't be called White Weenies because it's so much more than just "White Weenies". Likewise, you can't call it something simple like Mono-White Aggro/Control. These names are substitutions for "a merger of the successful elements of tempo-based Threshold and Suicide Black involving a proactive "free" disruption suite, threats that must be answered immediately, and consistency not found in traditional lists". It is Team America. It is Death and Taxes. Though the names may seem jokish, they describe absolutely the contents and strategy of the deck.
However, Sultai Delver is no more or less descriptive than BUG Delver, so that's not really the issue at hand. The reason we're opposed to these new "Sultai" and "Abzan" is because they aesthetically suck and are both unnecessary and unwanted.
The tournament I started is over. You should join the next one.
As I mentioned, I am fine with BUG or Sultai, because each is as descriptive as the other. That said, I think decrying the name changes as "unwanted" ignores the fact that the majority of people who play and watch Legacy are very likely indifferent about the change, and there are possibly some who even like it. I understand your reasoning as stated, and your previous comments, but I just don't see it as negative in any way within the context of promoting and growing the format, which is honestly the most important thing for Legacy as a whole (IMO).
It is safe to say 'change is always bad until it's not'. The Khans Tribe names are a change and therefore bad. Most individuals are happy to leave it at that and move on. Unfortunately WotC and SCG are forcing the issue, which may have the opposite effect they intended.
The difference between Shards and Khans is timing and auditory aestetics. Shards had been out for a while as Jund was starting to dominate Modern. It was an accepted Standard name which was used to describe a Modern deck and then ported into Legacy. Zoo had been around, but Nactl focused the strategy in(where it was admittedly already pretty focused) and again Modern adopted the term to differentiate it from the 'Zoo with Blue' or 'Dark Zoo' strategies before bannings made it all moot. Once Jund and Naya had been adopted, it is easy to call all
strategies 'Esper'. By the time you see Bant and Grixis in deck names, the terms had been accepted by the community. The deck designers and pilots were naming the decks with the Shards terms because that is what they called them on forums and amongst friends.
Bant, Jund, Grixis, Esper, and Naya are all fairly pleasant to the ear.
Sultai, Jeskai, Abzan, Mardu, and Temur are the opposite of that. First off, it is difficult to know if you are pronouncing them correctly. Every instinct I have makes me want to pronounce it AZ-ban. Is is Jess-Kay? Jesk-eye? Hyundai? Mardu is the only one that is difficult to get wrong. Even then, if you substitute any of the Shards with Mardu and ask someone which name is the worst, Mardu will always win (cause it is an awful name).
The overwhelming response from the supporters of the new names is "just give it some time and those names will be all anyone remembers anyways." That may be the case, but please see it from our (the Legacy player's) perspective...
Khans has been around as a playable Magic set for 4 days. Legacy has been around for a significantly longer period of time and has it's own naming conventions and ideas of what is 'descriptive' or 'easily identifiable'. If the community wants BUG Delver to be called Sultai Delver, it will happen organically. If standard decks become Modern decks and the Modern deck strategy is strong enough to be ported into Legacy, then the Khans names may find a home in eternal formats. But 4 days in, they have no place here. These things are best when they happen naturally over time (see Canadian Thresh slowly being accepted now as RUG Delver).
TL;DR - I'm all about delicious combinations, but in this case keep your chocolate the fuck away from my peanut butter!
Ok.
I saw the first match of the day yesterday. It irked me. It was still Magic being played, and decks with which I am familiar.
There are two main points that seems at odds with the section of Magic users that regularly play Magic.
The first point is the clan-name identity made by other earlier in this thread. Jund is a prime example of a deck named after cards featured from the block it was introduced: Bloodbraid Elf, Putrid Leech, Blightning, etc. This set the stage for when RTR made the deck playable in Legacy, and as such was a natural conclusion due to the similarly of cards and strategy (Midrange board control). Thus, retroactively naming Shardless BUG / BUG Delver to be Sultai seems out of place from the perspective of the Magic playing users. The deckname that describes the deck should be descriptive, rather than prescriptive. It is especially odd after such lengths that SCG went through to convince the community that BUG Delver is a better name than Team America. More on this at the end of the post.
The second point is the one in which Market Genius at WotC & SCG think they are so clever in attracting new blood to Magic, but conveniently ignore blocks from two years ago in "flavor" naming convention. Why is UR Delver facing off against Shardless Sultai, rather than Izzet Delver? If they are going to go full retard on flavor, then go 100%. Don't half-ass it just because of a lame and forceful marketing campaign. It's ludicrous to consider a new player does not know what Izzet or Golgari clans are (Duel Deck: Izzet vs Golgari). It makes the viewer really pause and scratch their heads about what level of idiocy is running through the marketing department.
Finally, there has been a big push from SCG coverage team to rename decks into functionally identifiable names, rather than some bullshit nonsense names like "Quinn the Eskimo", "Tin Fins", and "Canadian Threshold". While I agree with the idea that the creator of a deck gets to name it, SCG's goal is to make the deck names grok with users. Thus, I agree with the renaming trend from Team America to BUG Delver. Even this move was difficult for the community and SCG to finally be at peace with. Thus, it really confuses when SCG now decides to renege on the simple and neat and instead be WotC Marketing Peon #1 (Super Special Booster Seller Premium). We as a community should not be beholden to some marketing campaign. While we may not create the cards and get to choose their names, we play with them on a daily basis. Let us set the norms, rather than R&D.
/rant
West side
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Guy who got a slow play GL thoroughly deserved it. Took him like 2 minutes to split, a full minute to ultimate - and this is after multiple cautions from judges and a full slow play warning in the swiss.
“It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.”
-David DeLaney
The guy who won the event? Who wasn't even playing White? /headscratch
Clearly something's missing, I'm not sure I get the info properly.
Must be Jund Jund.
Dude, what is it so hard to grasp about the fact that our trouble is not with the bloody names (however silly they are), but with the fact that we don't like to be a part of their target-audience shaping and tested-on-people ideas?
Also, if the names don't matter, lets simply call the thing BUG Delver and be done with the thing, ok?
edit: Also, I'mn pretty interested how the decks will name once Khans block rotates out of Type II.
"Hello from the NY Convention Hall where the annual Legacy Worlds are taking place. We're past the first round and let me put it stragiht: what the community feared ever since the last B&R changes is really happening! The Shitskai decks were nigh eradicated by the bans, and the old Kolbás Delver is completely dead."
Thanks for the clarification, I didn't see it so I just treated it with my usual suspicion. of slow play GLs.
Thank you viral market.. err.... Compensated poster #4523! Your check for 25 USD and a set of Khans of Tarkir® Fetchlands (need a more shill/marketer name for these already) is on the way!
Honestly? Because I think it's childish and, in many cases, willful entitlement. You play a game that, at least in some manner, includes you in their demographic and puts you under the umbrella of their "target audience shaping"; their primary targets are the people who rarely, if ever, play in tournaments, but they target all players in certain ways. You're not better in any measurable metric than any other person who plays this game, and your opinion isn't, and shouldn't be, worth more than that of any other player; you are a consumer. Unless you stop playing the game completely, you're going to be part of their human subject testing in one way or another (or, at the very least, SCG's). If you don't like to be part of human subject testing via marketing/sales, don't ever purchase or use any product you did not create by yourself (with tools crafted by yourself from nature), and stay away from the internet.
Got it. I saw the Liliana ultimate and was caught up in something else, came back a couple of minutes later and saw they were in the booth, and then they announced the game loss (mentioning previous warnings), so I wasn't sure how legit it was. If it was deserved, I am glad the judge made the call.
That, or maybe I may oppose their ass-shittery, donchathink?
On the bolded part: welcome to the world of particular interests. My own opinion and my convenience is worth for me much more than that of anyone else.
Also, I never bought a single basic land from SCG, so there goes your wutnot...
The names are dumb. What the fuck is a Sultai? How is BUG harder or less descriptive? Remembering single letter abbreviations for colors is too hard now?
"What does U mean? Oh, forget it, I'll remember Jeskai instead!"
Derp wotc, fucking derp.
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