[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[Contract Killer]

Has anyone tried playing a snapcaster mage as tarmogoyf number 4?

I think people tried it a long time ago back when the most popular decks were rug delver, esper stoneblade and maverick. The issue is he's far to mana intensive for RUG. We have trouble consistently getting to 3 mana and even at 3 mana he can get blown out by daze. It's not outside of the realm of possibilities and you could try it as a singleton. I just wouldn't hold my breath hoping he'll do the impossible.

On another note this does go nicely with a brew I've been working on what do you guys think of this list:
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf

Instants/Sorceries
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Forked Bolt
4 Ponder

Artifact
3 Aether Vial

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Vendilion Clique

One of my fellow RUG players was talking about a brew of RUG Delver with vial in it. It's definitely interesting to say the least. It has a lot of similar qualities as RUG, but with vial the mana constrictions are not nearly as evident. It also allows RUG to effectively play Snapcaster mage.

I've tried it out a bit and it has done some awesome things. I would say it's at the very least on par with traditional RUG Delver.

[Alix444]

My first reaction is that vial really hurts our motto of "no one top decks action better than us." But I guess its pretty dreamy to hold up stifle mana or tap out looking for disruption and be able to progress our board state!

[poxy14]

I've tried it out a bit and it has done some awesome things. I would say it's at the very least on par with traditional RUG Delver.

It's always nice to see innovations, whether new brews or sideboard techs. How's it goin vs combo decks? i see the 0-pierce built here main, though you have lots of helpers on the side..

[Isre Morn]

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

[Alix444]

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

If someone forced me to play 4 probes main, I would probably cut a fetch and a forked bolt.

[Contract Killer]

My first reaction is that vial really hurts our motto of "no one top decks action better than us." But I guess its pretty dreamy to hold up stifle mana or tap out looking for disruption and be able to progress our board state!

People say RUG has good top decks, but that's kind of misleading. It will seem like we have good top decks, but only when we're ahead. If we haven't gotten a wasteland or stifle in then top decking a daze is usually bad. I will admit top decking an aether vial mid to late game does feel bad, but I honestly don't think it's worse than a stifle that may or may not do something.

Being able to hold up countermagic and progress our boardstate is really amazing enough so I think running a 4th vial over the 3rd snapcaster might be better.

It's always nice to see innovations, whether new brews or sideboard techs. How's it goin vs combo decks? i see the 0-pierce built here main, though you have lots of helpers on the side..

I haven't really had much testing with this list yet aside from a handful of games on cockatrice (which I don't really consider testing). I'm planning to proxy it up tomorrow and take it to one of my local tournaments to test it in-between rounds and stuff.

Oddly enough I'm not sure if pierce is really that good as of late. There seems to have been a decline of SnT variants which were the decks that it was the best against I think. Every time I've had pierce against storm they have perfect information off of probe, therapy or duress and can play around it easily. Those are the two main combo decks and neither pierce or snare excels better than the other in both match ups. Snare though does excel in utility against the rest of the meta so that's mainly why I chose it over pierce. It's definitely something to experiment with though.

How was testing with 17 Lands for you? Currently I'm trying to max up my Probe account. 4 Probes and 16 Lands (6 fetches, 6 lands, 4 wastes) felt very light on mana. Mostly 1 Land opening hands. Now I'm thinking about going back to 18 lands and shave other cards to make room for 3-4 Probes. What Card(s) would you (all) cut (54 core, 2 forked, 2 pierces)?

17 lands isn't horrible most of the time especially if you have vial. I've tried shaving down to 17 lands and running 3 or more probes and there are definitely worse things you can do. I mean I think if you're going to run that many probes expect to play very tight if you want to win. There's a reason why some of the most successful builds of RUG run probe because the information can lead to total blow outs. My issue with it is I've had the information, but it didn't do anything from stopping the opponent playing Lili the next turn around daze. I think the added information helps in the early game, but becomes less useful to dead mid or late when you need silver bullets in snare, pierce and forked bolt to answer problems.

[Contract Killer]

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

[keys]

Because of 2-of FoW? Could be a metagame call.

Edit: Except that Omni-Tell and Storm both feature in the T8...

[Isre Morn]

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

Because of 2-of FoW? Could be a metagame call.
Edit: Except that Omni-Tell and Storm both feature in the T8...

Hmm... or he only had 2 FoW to play with and had no one that could lend him any... But it could really to be a very aggressive metagame call as keys already mentioned... The list is some kind of versatile at first sight... what disturbs a bit is the FoW hole and the 10 Bolts MD (whenever I wanted to test Izzet Charm, a voice in my head suddenly said: "no, just forget about it, too clunky") Also 4 artifact hate (2x artifact mutation!) in the SB shut down every stoneforge and other artifact builds... I guess the 2x Divert were also metagame call for BGx variants... but in that case I'd only play 1 copy. All in all very light on combo hate...

If someone forced me to play 4 probes main, I would probably cut a fetch and a forked bolt.

O17 lands isn't horrible most of the time especially if you have vial. I've tried shaving down to 17 lands and running 3 or more probes and there are definitely worse things you can do. I mean I think if you're going to run that many probes expect to play very tight if you want to win. There's a reason why some of the most successful builds of RUG run probe because the information can lead to total blow outs. My issue with it is I've had the information, but it didn't do anything from stopping the opponent playing Lili the next turn around daze. I think the added information helps in the early game, but becomes less useful to dead mid or late when you need silver bullets in snare, pierce and forked bolt to answer problems.

Yeah, it was my intention to have as much information as possible in the early game steps (especially in case of holding up stife against potential 1 land handers), 2 probes were too less for this kind of playstyle. But now I'm captured again, because I know I would miss my snares too much :/ my meta is pretty fair (mostly D&T and Maverick / Dark Maverick, then MUD, 12Post, Merfolk, Miracles, Nic Fit, Elves, Reanimator). I also don't wanna miss any forked bolt i can get for stoneforge / mother / Shaman / Talia etc. etc. Gee... good bye again Probes ^^

[Prontus]

Hi guys. First post here :D. I'm not new to legacy but to this deck. I usually play elves, but my local meta is shifting to a bad state for the little green warriors. The thing i want to ask you is:

I have all the cards for some delver brews (fows, stifle, daze, wastes,etc) but im lacking duals (only 2 tropical, 2 bayou and 1 taiga)

What could you recommend me to do?:
-Play RUG with 1 taiga and 1 UR shockland
-Play BUG with 2 bayous and maybe droping daze for hymn and thoughtseize? (or play less copies)
-Play UG delver and change bolts for something else like vapor snag or more counters?

Thanks for your time :)

[Mr. Crane]

Hi guys. First post here :D. I'm not new to legacy but to this deck. I usually play elves, but my local meta is shifting to a bad state for the little green warriors. The thing i want to ask you is:

I have all the cards for some delver brews (fows, stifle, daze, wastes,etc) but im lacking duals (only 2 tropical, 2 bayou and 1 taiga)

What could you recommend me to do?:
-Play RUG with 1 taiga and 1 UR shockland
-Play BUG with 2 bayous and maybe droping daze for hymn and thoughtseize? (or play less copies)
-Play UG delver and change bolts for something else like vapor snag or more counters?

Thanks for your time :)

Play BUG, rug dont have DRS.
need 6dual islands to daze.
Maybe 5 tropical/volcanic, 1 taiga/shockland ? ok...
2 tropicals only, 33% of colored lands? suicide...

[FoolofaTook]

Ok now I've seen it all this is just bad lols
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9181&d=252551&f=LE

I don't know if the list is good or not but he does have 10 ways to deal with a DRS or Insectile Aberration by turn 2. He's also got Elves and D&T better handled than a typical RUG Delver list. I'm guessing it was a metagame call.

[Contract Killer]

I don't know if the list is good or not but he does have 10 ways to deal with a DRS or Insectile Aberration by turn 2. He's also got Elves and D&T better handled than a typical RUG Delver list. I'm guessing it was a metagame call.

I guess but despite having ways to deal with DRS and Delver that still leaves too many openings for the opponent to jam cards we must answer if possible aka goyf or TNN. I'll give it to him that he's definitely made some of our worse match ups better, but at the cost of losing percentages across the board to combo and most other fair decks. It just seems so bad and I can't really make heads or tails of it. Even as a meta call that's a bit extreme.

[QUOTE=haloquaero;870254]Hmm... or he only had 2 FoW to play with and had no one that could lend him any... But it could really to be a very aggressive metagame call as keys already mentioned... The list is some kind of versatile at first sight... what disturbs a bit is the FoW hole and the 10 Bolts MD (whenever I wanted to test Izzet Charm, a voice in my head suddenly said: "no, just forget about it, too clunky") Also 4 artifact hate (2x artifact mutation!) in the SB shut down every stoneforge and other artifact builds... I guess the 2x Divert were also metagame call for BGx variants... but in that case I'd only play 1 copy. All in all very light on combo hate...QUOTE]

Not being able to find forces that I would accept as a possible answer seeing as it's the only sane one lols. Izzet charm really isn't that bad to test in the flex spots if you wanted to. It does a lot of what we want and offers a similar flexibility that Fire//Ice has.
Fire//Ice is added removal for whatever little threats they have or can tap down a fatty to maybe sneak by a win. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG). If you want to max out on overall hate for combo and midrange I would run it. You would just need snares or Fire//Ice (another card I've never liked in RUG) in the other flex spots for getting around goyfs or other fatties.

[FoolofaTook]

Fire//Ice is added removal for whatever little threats they have or can tap down a fatty to maybe sneak by a win. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG). If you want to max out on overall hate for combo and midrange I would run it. You would just need snares or Fire//Ice (another card I've never liked in RUG) in the other flex spots for getting around goyfs or other fatties.

Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

[poxy14]

Here are the things that Fire//Ice does:

1. Kills a 2 toughness creature on turn 2.
2. Kills 2 1 toughness creatures on turn 2.
3. Taps down a land during the opponent's upkeep early on to keep the pressure on.
4. Taps Goyf, the germ token, Marit Lage, etc, when you need to push through for the last few points of damage.
5. Does 2 damage to the dome when that's what you need.

It's really a very flexible card and I don't really understand why it has gone out of favor the way it has. Forked Bolt is a turn faster and maybe that's just the best answer. I still tend to play 2 Fire//Ice in my UR lists and it's never a card I'm sorry to see at any point during the game.

6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..

[FoolofaTook]

6. pitches to FOW, and is never dead vs combo that carries xanthids..

Yeah, that too although it's a useful enough card that it's not an easy pitch unless the alternative is Brainstorm or the Delver you want to play on your turn.

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

[Isre Morn]

I'm wondering if Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt don't both belong in the flex 6? Maybe 2 Spell Pierce , 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Fire//Ice? Elves and D&T both become more manageable with 4 mini-sweepers in the main list and it's two extra ways to get rid of DRS, SFM and Insectile Aberration. Fire//Ice also kills Metalworker, which can be very problematic if MUD has Chalice@1. Admittedly if MUD lands Chalice@1 it's like a 90% loss anyway.

Oh, I really really often want to have those bolts 7 and 8 in my hands g1 when I'm playing against Elves, Dark Maverick and D&T in my lgs. Sometimes my problem is a resolved Thalia and therefore a Fire (like Rough in g2 and 3) would cost 3 mana, which sometimes is difficult to reach against them for me. So keeping the Snares in the 2 remaining flex spots seems like a better alternative for me, especially in case for RIP postboard. Fire is definately better against Elves as Snare, but sometimes I get to hit a Zenit on 1, Visionaries or Ooze in g2 and 3 with it.

I also often play against MUD and I'm still searching for the right way to play right and tight against it. But here again Snare in the 2 remaining flex spots seems more attractive for me because it can hit Chalice on 1, Monolith, Defense Grid and Ratched Bomb. Nevertheless Metal Worker HAS to die asap if it couldn't get countered and I definately see your point for Fire//Ice in all your scenarios (especially against DRS / Insectile Aberration).

Izzet charm really isn't that bad to test in the flex spots if you wanted to. It does a lot of what we want and offers a similar flexibility that Fire//Ice has. Izzet charm offers the same threat removal, and has either spell pierce or a thought scour-esque cantrip (a card I've always hated in RUG)

The problem I have with Izzet Charm is that you can't aim the opponents face, you can't split the damage, and you pierce for the cost of . Good old Counterspell seems like a better option for me in this way. It's also not worth using a pseudo thought scour effect for imo. Like Fire//Ice it's also harder to cast if Thalia or a Lodestone Golem entered the battlefield - which in my case happens on-again-off-again.

[Einherjer]

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

[Blitzkreuz]

I think thats a good standard Rug list, the only thing which I dont like are the 2 dismember , but that is a personal preference, I tried em and they didnt work for me. I use 2 Forked Bolt instead.

As far as discussions go, there are no big ones, I think. A few posts earlier there was someone asking for experience with a 1 of Snapcaster instead of the 4th goyf, but that's really all.

[Niggurath]

Hey guys,

I'm currently trying to acquire the skill set to pilot RUG Delver properly. And I hate it if people that do not know the deck inside and out build decks I just threw together a pile that is supposed to be as generic as possible, without adapting any special cards from other players. So I tried to build a very generic list without too much spice. Let me know what you think.

And would anybody be so kind as to let me know what the most important points of discussions are, atm?

Btw, I also plan on streaming my learning process with RUG Delver as soon as next week.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble


Greetings

Hey! Well, I would suggest these changes:

-2 Dismember +2 Forked Bolt, as has been already said. Forked Bolt sometimes can 2x1, it's great against Deathrite and Stoneforge, and it won't cost you life.
-1 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce / -2 Spell Snare +1 Spell Pierce +1 Fire-Ice. I've tested 1 or 2 Spell Snare at maindeck, but they are a dead card most of the time in my experience. Most times you'll draw them when your opp has already landed his Tarmo, Stoneforge, etc. Still, playing 1 at maindeck can be ok IMO.

Your sideboard looks sweet.