[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

[poxy14]

any thoughts on m15's QUICKLING?

-
requires target...well, goose might have a new friend, so no way of 2 for 1-ing us once it hits play.
any 2cc is considered slow for this deck

+
evade, can swing stalled ground battles..
better plaxmanta? saves some of our crits to adecay, removal...
it's blue..

i'll be giving this guy a test...see where it goes...

[sawatarix]

the deck has no room for such cute cards like quickling, most of the time we will have an opening 7 with just the quickling as the only creature.
if we need protection for our beatsticks we still have access to 4 spell pierce.

[Dice_Box]

If it's stat line was stronger, maybe. But a 2/2 for 2 that slows your tempo and clogs up your early hands? Not worth for something Divert could do and for half the cost.

[Contract Killer]

So I've been a bit MIA lately with some other life things going on. That aside back onto magic. After testing needle I just don't think it can make the main deck cut. There were many times I was happy with it and others it bricked.

More to the point while needle can be good the card kind of drags the game on longer by still leaving creatures on the battlefield. It might take away the "threat" of the creature, but they still have a body to block with and/or eat goose sometimes. The best analogy I've found so far was by a friend (who's a lot better at legacy than me for that matter) that said "needle is just really volatile". The card can have some stupidly broken starts I played the mirror and had turn 1 probe into needle naming tarn which he had 2 of in hand and those were his only lands.

What do you guys think about the list that took second at Kansas? Overall it's a fairly stock list, but I'm curious if anyone has had success with Cursed Totem? Seems like it could be really good for the Elves, D&T, Deathblade and other match ups where creatures play a key role.

Currently I'm looking at going to a two fairly large events coming up soon probably around 70+ people. This is what I'm looking at playing or at least something along these lines:
54 Core
3 chain lightning
1 forked bolt
2 spell pierce

Sideboard:
2 submerge

2 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
1 vendilion clique
1 sylvan library

1 sulfur elemental
2 rough and tumble

1 ancient grudge
1 destructive revelry

2 grafdigger's cage

To be perfectly honest I think the burn heavy list is actually quite good. It has really consistent hands that always have answers for deathrite/mom/stoneforge. It can grow goose fast in some matches like Miracles and create a really fast clock out of nowhere. Even against combo it can give you enough extra reach to close the game out 1 turn closer or shut off their forces and push them to the breaking point.

The slight change from my older burn list is the single forked bolt and lack of sylvan in the main. Goyf is just all around consistently better even if library can draw into burn/broken combinations like wasteland/stifle + daze. Forked bolt while it's 1 less damage I think has more value as a silver bullet than the fourth chain lightning. The one damage can be game deciding, but it has so much potential against elves/D&T. Forked bolt is also safer with Burn on the rise.

Even with burn becoming more popular I think the chain lightnings are still fine. They tend to tap out or at least only have 1 mana up playing around daze most likely. That being said chain lightning just needs to be used very cautiously and it should be fine. People also won't expect it and will probably not play with leaving mana up for if you do have chain lightning.

[poxy14]

@CK: been always a fan of the heavy burn RUG built, but what i dont like bout chain lightnings are its inability to interact, instantly... i always love burning T1 drs when im on the play and waste'ing the nextturn and opening mana up still for another stifle, pierce or land a delver or ponder..or burning something upon equipping is a real good tempo move...not really worried bout BURN utilizing our own chains, RUG is skill intensive and i think most pilots know how to properly use it (chains) against any deck carrying red.

my 7 burn built that's been doing great for me so far is very diverse (1 fice, 1 forked, 1tarfire, 4 lightnings)
2snares has been an inclusion to me lately with the rise of Progress, meta-filled with sfm, rips, cblances....and since im carrying my own tnns...it can interact still with Zpersecutions.

what my dillema is should i cut the 2nd graveyard hate, or cut the 2nd rough.....for the 3rd submerge..

[Contract Killer]

@CK: been always a fan of the heavy burn RUG built, but what i dont like bout chain lightnings are its inability to interact, instantly... i always love burning T1 drs when im on the play and waste'ing the nextturn and opening mana up still for another stifle, pierce or land a delver or ponder..or burning something upon equipping is a real good tempo move...not really worried bout BURN utilizing our own chains, RUG is skill intensive and i think most pilots know how to properly use it (chains) against any deck carrying red.

my 7 burn built that's been doing great for me so far is very diverse (1 fice, 1 forked, 1tarfire, 4 lightnings)
2snares has been an inclusion to me lately with the rise of Progress, meta-filled with sfm, rips, cblances....and since im carrying my own tnns...it can interact still with Zpersecutions.

what my dillema is should i cut the 2nd graveyard hate, or cut the 2nd rough.....for the 3rd submerge..

Yeah I just know from my own experience that drawing into chain lightning against burn while they're hell bent is the worst feeling in the world. Snare is a weird card and very similar to probe in either it's utility or uselessness. I'm still not sure if I would ever want more than 1 in a deck, but then that kind of defeats the purpose by not having the counter on hand when they make their two drop. I've had snare against miracles and they just never had counterbalance and it was just a brick in my hand. Other times it's great even closing out counter wars by countering their counterspell. The added bonus as a defensive card against Zpersecutinos seems well worth it if you're packing TNN's. That might make it worth while enough seeing as a fair amount of the "Oh s*** TNN!" cards: edict effects, golgari charm and Zpersecutions are all at 2 mana lol .

what my dillema is should i cut the 2nd graveyard hate, or cut the 2nd rough.....for the 3rd submerge..

Now that's a tough one. I'm not sure I personally got really sick of losing to manaless dredge so I've just gone with sticking to 2 cage to make all the dredge match ups near auto win post board. Still don't know if it's worth keeping in wasteland against manaless if you're boarding into cage. The irony is wasteland doesn't do anything, but with cage out of the board it actually now casts a game winning spell other than the random goyf off of trop/waste. On top of that aggressively mulligaining to cage is easier with more than just 14 lands lols.

The 3rd Submerge can really help if you plan on seeing a lot of Goyf decks. Then again you might just end up seeing a lot of d&t and elves and wonder why you ever cut the 2nd rough. Personally I think d&t and elves are bad enough matches to warrant the 2nd rough over the 3rd submerge. We can beat other fair decks with only 2 submerges if we play tight and capitalize when they screw up. Elves and d&t on the other hand can be much harder and rough can be game winning in both of those matches.

In the end there's only so much you can do in tweaking those last 2 or 3 sideboard slots. Whether those cards will be better than the other "bread and butter" sideboard cards will depend on your match ups. At that point it's a crap shoot and you just need some luck and skill to get there. No matter what magic is still a game of chance whether we like it or not hahaha .

[poxy14]

In the end there's only so much you can do in tweaking those last 2 or 3 sideboard slots. Whether those cards will be better than the other "bread and butter" sideboard cards will depend on your match ups.

thanks for the pointers CK, well after looking at various top8decks (RUG) over at tcdecks, rough shouldnt be cut at any point.
i might just have to rely on the snares ive maindecked for goyf wars...and pray i should be lucky to draw any of my 2 submerges when faced vs kotr decks..i saw several decks that runs only 2..that might be the correct number at this point...or i should say a meta call to run 3..

[ryscott85]

Is there a reason you rarely see null rod or pithing needle in rug delver sideboards? They both drastically help with death and taxes, as well as miracles. I lot of bug delver lists use both, and it seems to me like the combo of those cards plus our burn would assist a lot!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Is there a reason you rarely see null rod or pithing needle in rug delver sideboards? They both drastically help with death and taxes, as well as miracles. I lot of bug delver lists use both, and it seems to me like the combo of those cards plus our burn would assist a lot!

Null Rod may be hard to play without DRS, esp. if you need to play around Daze/Port, or if you wish to play turn2 Rod with a mana open for Pierce.
I played it in sb, it was good against lots of decks.

[Dr Brian Pepper]

Any thoughts on the RUG deck that Ayers's is 4-0ing with? It cut a spell snare, a forked bolt, a tarmogofy and a land for 4 probes.

[Contract Killer]

Any thoughts on the RUG deck that Ayers's is 4-0ing with? It cut a spell snare, a forked bolt, a tarmogofy and a land for 4 probes.

Probes are really good and I've played with 3 tarmogoyfs before (1 sylvan instead) and it's not horrible. I mean Tarmogoyf is probably our least effective threat since any of the following: Abrupt Decay, Swords to Plowshares and TNN deal with it. I'm not a huge fan of cutting the 8th fetch. I mean we run so few lands already do we really want to cut one? I guess there's an argument for cutting a land for a probe since it's essentially not even taken into account when looking at probability (or at least I don't count it). Seems worth testing at least I just don't think cutting the land is worth it when looking at how many 1 landers we keep to begin with.

In other news I just played at my weekly tournament and went 2-1-1 which wasn't horrible.

Round 1 Merfolk 0/2
Probably one of our harder match ups. I mean they run 4 - 6 TNNs plus what 7 - 8 (vial/cavern) ways of making it un-counterable. So game 1 was pretty bad with him being on the play with something like vial x 2, force, merfolk, tnn x 2, island as an opener. My geese + goyf couldn't race fast enough when staring down what turned out to be a 12 point swing all swimming past my creatures *sigh*.

Game 2 was pretty similar just went a bit longer. I boarded something like - 4 stifle // + 2 pyroblast, 2 rough. He eventually got a TNN off a cavern and then got a second one shortly after. Needless to say playing against a deck that has so many ways to cut off RUG's interaction on the stack (vial, cavern, TNN, etc) is just really bad for us.

Round 2 Show and Tell 2/0
Now here's a match up I like. Game 1 I get a turn 1 delver followed by 2 wastelands ( volcanic, city of traitors) holding up daze, spell pierce and force of will.

Game 2 I get a turn 2 goose followed by a turn 3 goyf. I was holding a force and flusterstorm so I don't really think there was much he could do
boarding otd -2 goyf, -1 stifle, -1 daze, -1 forked bolt, -1 chain lightning // + 2 flusterstorm, 2 pyroblast, 1 vendilion clique, 1 sylvan library.

Round 3 Miracles 2/0 sweet another match up I enjoy
Game 1 he's OTP , but I have a good t1 delver to help me out. Delver beats him down to 10 then with a mix of his fetches I eventually get there with bolt, chain lightning and forked bolt. He starts clinging for dear life at 5 with jace fate sealing me, but I draw into bolts. That's partially why I like the burn heavy version despite what you're playing against extra bolts are always useful.

Game 2 I get another turn 1 delver out, but it bricks on triggers for 4 turns . Somewhere in there Goyf joins the party for a whopping 3 dmg a turn hahaha. Then delver flips and he goes from 12 to 6 then he gets a supreme verdict though *sigh*. Destructive Revelry and bolt clean up though.
Boarding otd - 1 forked bolt, - 1 tarmogoyf, -4 daze // + 2 pyroblast, 1 destructive revelry, 1 flusterstorm, 1 sylvan library, 1 vendilion clique.

Round 4 Miracles 1/1/1 Rinse repeat lol
Game 1 I'm on the draw again sadly. On the Brightside I quckly take the lead in this game with 2 delvers he falls to 11 and then terminuses with force back up which is more than my 1 land can handle. After my delvers landed I was trying to brainstorm into another fetch, but even after 3 brainstorms I couldn't draw another land (they were spaced out over 6 turns I think). Two chain lightnings a bolt and some fetches later though and he's burnt to a crisp :D

Game 2 Goose is beating down most of this game with delver helping out some. I get him down to 6 then he has a supreme verdict (this really makes me want to play Burg for charm's regen option). He starts to stabilize at 4 life once he gets the top counterbalance lock out and with me holding a bolt in hand too! At this point there's 8 mins left and I know he's floating a 1 on top so I decide to cut my losses and move to game 3.

Game 3 This game is really awesome. Turn 1 delver gets him down to 10 before he snapcaster's a swords to plowshares to finally get him. In the meantime there were some really awesome counter wars he entreats for 2 with 1 mana up I spell pierce he flusterstorms I stifle the storm trigger and use my 3rd mana to pay for the original . Over the next few turns I get a bolt and chain lightning off leaving him at 1. Then I get sylvan library out. At this point it's 1 out of last 5 turns. I draw myself down to 6, but can't find 1 out of the 5 other bolts left in my deck to finish him off. It ends in a draw and could have gone either way with me at 6 life and him having a snapcaster out.
Boarding - 1 forked bolt, - 1 tarmogoyf, -4 daze // + 2 pyroblast, 1 destructive revelry, 1 flusterstorm, 1 sylvan library, 1 vendilion clique.

I also got my sweet new delver alter in. I can't wait to use it Shout out to Xela the Geek for making such an awesome alter and I would recommend anybody to check out her facebook page and see the amazing work she has done: https://www.facebook.com/XelaTheGeek

http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/jo...tml?sort=3&o=1
http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/jo...tml?sort=3&o=0

[ShiftyKapree]

My current deck contains the usual, I don't play probe bc of burn and a good player should be able to tell what the opponent is on by turn 1 with whatever they fetch with, I even go as far to call out my opponent on turn 1 after they fetch, usually pisses them off. I also strongly believe you should open up always with these 3 choices in order: Delver, Stifle, ponder, probe feels win more too me and really doesn't have a place in my list, ran it in the past but never liked it, the two life is important to me in some really tight match-ups like esper, DNT, and storm. Bolting yourself turn 1 just to see there hand isn't worth it, also I mulligan aggressively with the deck. I play 2 pierce, 2 snare, and 2 forked bolt, makes for easy boarding decisions for me. My current board I play with which I'm content with is kgrip, grudge, pierce, fluster storm,sulfur elemental, vclique, grafdiggers, 2 rough/tumble, 3 Reb, 3 submerge. Sometimes I debate on cutting sulfur for loam and cut another card depending on what I see around the room. Spellsnare is so good against burn you have no idea how great it is to counter price, searing blaze, or eddion. This was sent from my iPhone so I apologize about any spelling or grammatical errors.

[Contract Killer]

I don't play probe bc of burn and a good player should be able to tell what the opponent is on by turn 1 with whatever they fetch with, I even go as far to call out my opponent on turn 1 after they fetch, usually pisses them off.

Probe isn't so much to tell what they're on, but more so to answer the question of what they may or might not have. Anybody who's been playing legacy for a while can tell marsh flats -> tundra is deathblade and verdant catacombs ->swamp -> deathrite is jund, etc. Probe just really helps with knowing whether it's worth leaving stifle mana up. It also makes the combo match ups much easier knowing if they're about to go off or if they're still looking for cards A, B and C. The life loss can be really bad against burn, but I think it's not horrible against any other deck.

[Kamus]

Does anyone tried to take out the mongooses and use young pyromancer?
4 pyromancer, 4 goyfs and 4 delvers

[J-Funk]

I'm probably really late to the party on this, but have people talked about Skylasher at all? It seems pretty good out of the SB for killing delvers and cliques, and attacking through TNNs. What is the argument against it?

[Exuberance]

I'm probably really late to the party on this, but have people talked about Skylasher at all? It seems pretty good out of the SB for killing delvers and cliques, and attacking through TNNs. What is the argument against it?

My argument is that it's a narrow answer strapped to a shitty grizzly bear, when the sideboard is already tight as it is. Also, Bolts and Red Blasts answer all the cards that Skylasher does.

[Exuberance]

Does anyone tried to take out the mongooses and use young pyromancer?
4 pyromancer, 4 goyfs and 4 delvers

I'd rather cut Goyf. Goyf is still really good, but dies to everything, etc. Probably want to play 4x Probe with Young P, which means getting real hype and cutting a Tropical Island for your newly formed Cantrip.dek. Damn, now I wanna do this.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd rather cut Goyf. Goyf is still really good, but dies to everything, etc. Probably want to play 4x Probe with Young P, which means getting real hype and cutting a Tropical Island for your newly formed Cantrip.dek. Damn, now I wanna do this.

This seems reasonable. Mongoose has easier times surviving and doesn't die to Decay/StP unlike Goyf. While both other creatures die to it, it happens not before they deal at least some dmg, as Delver is pretty fast and YP creates at least some tokens either prior to removal, or even in resp. to it.
If you decide to cut Mongoose, then in your place I'd try to incorporate one Jitte or Rancor. Random? Yeah. But you got cantrips to find it. Useless? Mabye. But it's not like 1/1 tokens alone are that dangerous and it helps to get past TNN or win races.


I played 2/2/2 SS/SP/FB list to an unimpresive 1:2, drop.
R1 (Jan) I met DnT which I defeated ina serie of completely unbelievable games (e.g. G1 I won with opponent being on one Port since his turn2, yet this was still one of the most grindy games I played in past month or so).
R2 (Lukáš) I met Jund and was grinded out. Unluckily, I didn't see enough Delvers and sb'd stuff, otoh, I didn't play really tight and I was lucky to win g2 against active Jitte without any sb cards, so I cannot whine.
R3 (Václav) I lost in a pretty fast fashion against UG Infect and I wasn't really in a game. Bad opening hands, but eah, there are more reasons why I lost than just that.


Btw, I liked the Infect, and I thought to build that, as long as I got everything necessary... "wait, yes, Rancor, np, Stifles, obv, I got those, what's that - Nexus, no trouble, that's some 50 bucks, set of Noble Hie... oh so. Nice deck, though. Nevermind."

[poxy14]

played RUG last saturday 16man tourney.
went 3 - 1, for a 3rd place finish

spells (26)
4fows/4bstorms/4ponders/4dazes/3pierces/4bolts/2tarfires/1fice
creatures (15)
4delver/4goyfs/3grims/3kird apes/1vcliq
lands (19)
3volcs/3trops/1taiga/8fetches/4wastelands

sides:
3 submerge/1rough/1fice/1surgical/1graf/1ancient grudge/1drevelry/3pyroblasts/1tnn/1needle/1snare (flex spot)

R1 (1-2 reanimator KITZ)
despite winning game 1, still went short the last 2 games...game 2 needing another blue source for my second fow...and game 3 of not having the volcanic island i need for bolt, opponent down to three..when im able to tap his resolved gbrand via fice..still cant believe i didnt draw any of my dazes in any of the 3 games i played : (
even when im on the stock RUG built, im having difficulties closing this matchup as they just have so many 1cc spells combined with discards and counters too..

R2 (2-0 UR dreadstill JOHN)
the 19th land was crucial as he was playing stifles, with me having 3 pierces main, non of his standstill resolved..he had problems with goyfs and i won this one easily.

R3 (reanimator.....not again! 2-0 ARIS)
since i have lots of 1cc crits and apes are faster than geese... the current crit config proved its advantage this time. his reanimate will not work this time coz of fast life loss...game 2 when i drew a delver and lots of permission..

R4 (2-0 sneakshow FRANZ)
again, i consistently drew into a turn 1 threat and just wait for the counters to seal the win...game 2 wherein he tried resolving a sneak, i daze, he fowed (no mana left)....on my turn i revelried, he fow’ed but i have a pierce and 2 more turns delver and kingkong triumphed vs the spaghetti monster..

after the tourney, weve decided to test the deck vs tempo decks, just to know if it has issues vs my all time favorite deck (RUG canthresh) games are without sideboarding....

3-0 vs KEL (eventual 2nd place with RUG delver)
i have just lots of crits and early apes are issues with unthreshed goose, he has to choose also whether to burn delvers, deal with apes or with my grims that provides constant pressure...i only rely on timely wastelands and fetches to work the mana advantage...since im carrying 7 true lands this time..not missing stifles here. opposing goyf becomes just a blocker to numerous apes..and when i held attcking em, grims and cliq can still provide eot pressure.....oooops, i have my own goyfs too! haha!

2-1 vs ALVIN (RUG with needles/probe main)
the only loss i got was once he drew multiple 3 geese (he’s OTP)... RUG vs fair with lots of removals, this was somehow a Goddraw for him...upon putting early pressure, he was the able to deal properly with my lands, by the time i was able to resolve my goyfs, im at bolt range already.

i had easier time sideboarding with this built, as i have 10 1 drops and can bench goyfs vs the combo matchups, to load more hate, i also dropped the snares....with 3 grims main and 7 more burns, pretty much i have game vs sfm/thalia...carrying more fire a resolved DRS/mom seem not to be an issue to me anymore. Never had issues too flipping delvers..with 26 enablers...just utilize correct pondering and bstorming to negate the low count. Still missing shroud effects of geese, but apes are faster clock vs decks that has no removals..also, by having 15 crits from the regular 12 (stocklist).. quantity should somehow bridge the vulnerability of my creatures to removals.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Interesting take on the deck? Is there any chance (and reason) to incorporate three Stifles, so that you may protect your lands from Waste? You know: Kird Apes love their forests.