Krosan Grip stops everything relevant except for Emrakul from the hand or the play of a second Omniscience. Whether you have the mana to cast grip after fighting over Show and Tell and playing your game plan is another question but if you have 3 mana untapped and grip in hand they're not going to kill you after Show and Tell resolves unless they have Emrakul already in hand. They can play a second Omniscience and put you on death's doorstep but Emrakul is the only thing that is going to kill you through split-second removal in response to their first play after Omniscience lands.
All points raised about krosan grip are true; however, I'm just uncomfortable with the fact that grip is only good after show and tell resolves.
Cheers
None of the solutions to a resolved Show and Tell are particularly good. It's generally a 3cc win-con. However of the hate that you could bring in for it I think other than Pyroblast/REB Krosan grip has the widest relevance to the meta as a whole and the most chance of actually stopping the opponent in his tracks once S&T has resolved. At least with grip you get options against Chalice of the Void, Batterskull, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance and Aether Vial in addition to the hope against OmnitellOriginally Posted by cheerios
It's also super good removal against Agents and Strixes.
If I am a Shardless BUG player, I am incredibly happy for a Delver player to board in KGrip against me...
Pithing Needle on Wasteland is really bad when it happens. Shardless BUG is likely to identify RUG Canadian as the beat down in the matchup and put stuff in to get past the early game and into mid-game inevitability. Many Shardless players have a Sylvan Library in the main and one in the sideboard. Some have Jitte in the sideboard. I think it depends on the matchup but I could see putting a grip in post-board, particularly if we won game 1 and are on the draw game 2.
I'm thinking of getting back into Legacy and believe Canadian Thresh to be a better fit for me than my previous decks in terms of competition (hard to rationalize this, simply because it's the result of soul searching).
Anyhow, right now I'm using a budget Red-Green Modern deck to play M:tG casually, but I'm wondering if the following list is a good place to start in terms of a Canadian Thresh main?
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shardless Agent
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Rationale for the 6 flex:
- 2 Shardless Agent: Not so sure on this, but it seems like it would help me go from pure tempo to more of an attrition-based playstyle.
- 1 Sensei's Divining Top: I know we typically want to end the game quickly and don't have mana to abuse top, but again this is for those rare instances where I'd have to play attrition.
- 3 Chain Lightning: Yeah: it's more burn, and is rarely dead when Cascaded into (which, so far, I have 8 cards that are always dead when I cast Shardless Agent). Probably the most solid pick I have for the 6 flex.
Any thoughts?
Lousy lousy with the agent.
You will be getting dazes, stifles, chains, and bolts when you don't even want them.
Adding Shardless in an attempt to play more of an attrition style detracts too much from the tempo gameplan - some decks can't play every role. It forces you into making awkward decisions with Brainstorm and Daze because you otherwise wouldn't have to cast any 3-mana cards, and you have a lot of cards which aren't good to cascade into.
It's the same idea with top. You mostly want to be spending all your mana each turn deploying threats or interacting with the opponent. Sure, sometimes the wheels fall off and you might end up in a situation where you flood out a bit and you want a D-Top, but this deck is likely in a losing position when the game looks like that - you really just want to play more actual spells in order to prevent yourself ending up in that situation in the first place.
Thanks for all your answers. I do have 1 Clique and Pyroblast/REB in the SB. The local meta's also becoming Reanimator-infested, so I might cut 1 Grafdigger's Cage for 1 Surgical Extraction. Krosan Grip's the slot I'm actually iffy about. I think I'd rather have a TNN for grindy matchups, but I'll test Krosan Grip out first.
Few thoughts buzzing my mind. Omnitell seems to be running rampant at the moment, and I'm curious what the best plan is against them. They are getting way greedier with their manabase which does make it a bit easier for us.
Also, I may have missed it along the line of this thread but has anyone tried a more midrangey version with Dig Through Time/Young Pyromancer? In the "Treasure Cruise"-era we did this with TC instead of DTT. Looking at Grixis and Izzet Delver they are basicly just replacing TC with DTT. Perhaps our deck would become less tempo oriented but probably a better late. I wouldn't be as interessted in Stifle in that kind of build though. Basicly the TC-era RUGdelver with DTT instead of TC, and perhaps running a fetch or two more.
Post #1295 in this thread (only back 1 page) contains a successful example of the kind of deck you are talking about. (same list 1st and 2nd place at a 70 player event in France)
Creatures [11]
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Young Pyromancer
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
Instants [24]
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Dig Through Time
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [6]
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Lands [19]
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroblast
2 Submerge
Hey,
Thanks for pointing that out! Im on Tapatalk and its sometimes hard to find what you're looking for.
Sometimes grudge is good for card advantage. But i think pyro/reb is better against strixes(counter), kill all blue/artifacts + jace and very good against ancestral vision, sometimes brainstorm(with wasteland/stifle ld combination plan). Grip very slow.
Shardless BUG boarding I think should be something along these lines:
OTP
+2 submerge, 2 pyroblast // - 4 force
OTD
+2 submerge, 2 pyroblast, Sylvan, Vendilion // - 2 force, - 2 pierce, - 2 daze
I think OTP it's fair to try and go with the full tempo plan taking force out since it's card disadvantage and they probably run some number of hymns. OTD we need to be more prepared for the mid to late game which is why I think sylvan and vendilion are good on the draw. This is also why we should keep in at least 2 force even though it's card disadvantage it's necessary OTD. We still want all the stifles since it still counters visions and mana denial is by far our best approach to this match up.
I think one of over looked parts of this match up is even OTD shardless doesn't have that much countermagic. So long as we can force their hand with pressure and some mana denial the match up is still winnable on the draw.
Hey guys :) I am Simo, RUG player who is following this thread since ages and finally decided to bring my contribution ;-) First of all I have to thank all of you for all the helps and suggestions that I have found in the last couple of years reading your replies :) I tried pretty much all the possible combinations of the standard 54 + 6 slots, and a lot of the variations (starting with the "crazy" version with Pithing Needle MD, passing by the Kird Ape / Young Pyro / With and without Cruise, the current version with Dig etc).
My current list is pretty standard:
54x Rug Core
3x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
1x Dismember
1x Forked Bolt
Side:
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Pyroblast
1x Flusterstorm
2x Rough // Tumble
2x Submerge
1x Krosan Grip
1x Ancient grudge
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Sulfuric Vortex
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
I play pretty much every Tuesday in a local tournament (usually 4 rounds) and when I can, I try to play bigger ones (I will be in Lille for the GP in July :) ) the meta in my shop is pretty various (Omnitell, Bug Delver, Lands, Elves, DnT, Shardless, Infect, Miracle, Ant, Dredge etc) and that it's quite good as it let me play with a quite generic sideboard that I then tend to use in bigger tournaments :)
Reporting what happened yesterday, I finished with a decent: 3-1:
Match 1: budget ANT (2-0)
Game1: Completely new guy, very nice to see new players around, but he was coming from modern so he did not have duals and big legacy cards. He built a nice budget version of ANT who nearly got me on game one as I was not sure about what it was going on, I saw only a couple of lands who enter tapped, I was imagining some sort of combo as he did not played any creature and he probes twice... He tried to combo off before to be killed by a Delver (and I think a goyf), I dazed the right ritual with a pierce as backup, nothing to say.
Game2: I am pretty sure I kept this hand (my memory is very bad I know ^^): 2x land, Fow, Daze, Pierce, Ponder, Delver ... don't think that I need to describe the game.. :)
Very uncommon to see people with budget decks (we have a nice and very friendly community, so if he asked we could have lend him the cards that he was missing) but still happy to know that at the end he managed to 1 match against a proper real ANT, so happy for him and always happy to see new players :)
Match 2: NicFit with Necrotic Ooze combo (2-1)
Game1: this is an expert player, I know that he usually play Lands or some sort of combo.. I kept this hand (don't ask me why) with: 1x volc, 2x fect, 1x waste, 1x stifle, 1x brainstorm, 1x daze.
He put in play a Griselbrand after that I managed to daze his first reanimate spell and force the second (found a FoW with the brainstorm) .. but could not do anything with the third that he had in hand since the beginning.. (still not a very good hand to keep)
Game2: It was a weird match as I had daze + surgical + pierce + delver in the opening hand, so very nice one, but.. the delver decided to remain a 1/1 for 4 long turns.. I won pretty much because I used the surgical on the Necrotic Ooze that was the target of his reanimate spell.
Game3: Don't remember too much but I had a decent hand and he was looking for some actions without finding it (remember him showing a lot of lands in hand and nothing else).
Match 3: feature match against Elves (2-1) :) you can find the video here: http://www.twitch.tv/darkspheretwitch/b/658503343
I know I made a few mistakes ^^ I think the biggest one on game 3, when I played the second Rough // Tumble instead of playint the Grafdigger's Cage first and on game 2 my line of play was not the optminal IMHO (a bit too much conservative), but at the end it paid, and I still won 2-1
Match 4: Shardless Bug (0-2)
Game1: this is not a matchup that I like, the hand was a not optminal but not completely bad (I remember a daze, a goyf, a fow, a brainstorm, and lands). We fight over my goyf, then he managed to kill him with a decay, then Liliana resolved and that was pretty much game..
Game2: This was a long game, with 2x goyfs facing my 2x goyfs and 2x Goose, we managed both to clean the board with bolts and decays and this was the scenario when I nearly got there as he was a 6 life but I was without Volcanic (I did not expect to see Life from the Loam in his deck ), I had the last Goose in play, he had a Lili (with only 1 counter) and a tapped Shaman, 2 trops for me, 3 lands for him with one card in hand that I don't know. I draw a Pithing needle... I probably made a mistake here.. I attacked him so 3 life now and played the needle on Lili.. he untapped, cast shardless agent into vision into another Shaman.. I know that probably even naming Shaman it would have been the same (no red source for me), but I am still not sure if I have done the right thing. - edit - my last draw was a submerge
And that was it :)
In general, I like to play against combo (ok we can remove lands and painter from the list that are quite difficult matchup even if I have an idea about how to play against them so I know that it's bad but at least I know what to try to do) and I do like to play against Miracle...
Opposite, I really really don't like: Dnt (this is my mental block, I can't win against it.. I probably just approach the match in a very wrong way) and I do have problem against Shardless BUG (I know, difficult matchup where being on the play is very good and have a good hand is very important, but still not feeling sure about my line of playing ). :)
Always happy to read advice and comments :D and hope to have been useful even only with this simple and not very accurate report ^^
Thanks for the report. I was not aware of this channel and didn't see it last night when i was surfing twitch (maybe because of the time difference?) But I'll definitely check it out. Thanks!
It's quite new :-) the shop has started to stream about a month ago :-) legacy is every Tuesday at 7.15 pm - UK Time. (I am Italian but I live in London)
I will try to remember to post when there is some bigger legacy tournament like I am pretty sure there is a Legacy GPT in June before Lille :-)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by comix84; 05-14-2015 at 05:23 AM.
Hello there. It's been two years since I last played the deck. I'd like to know wich version of the deck makes it possible to have 50/50 with shardless bug and team america?
Thanks
If you want good (well at least 50/50 and even that's a stretch) you definitely want I would say at least 2 spell snares md. It's one of the best cards against them countering tarmogoyf and the problematic strixes that shardless runs. If you're really gunning for those two decks a dismember isn't out of the question, but it does make as painful alternative to deal with deathrite. Honestly not much has changed from 2 years ago, but I would run something like this if I knew there would be a lot of those decks:
54 md RUG Delver
2 snare
2 dismember
2 pierce
SB
3 submerge (really good against both those)
2 pyroblast (necessary since TNN has entered the scene)
1 spell snare (again if you really want to hate on those decks)
9 other cards that deal with combo/artifacts/graveyard/rough etc
That aside I wouldn't say you should warp your main deck around beating those two decks. They're both bad match ups, but running dismember I think makes a lot of other matches worse enough so that I don't like to run it ever.
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