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Thread: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

  1. #2321
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I don't play any pingers in the sideboard because all the good pingers are expensive, and Grim Lavamancer isn't what you want in Threshold. I also like that a lot of cheap sweepers deal more than 1 damage, as killing Deathrite Shamans and opposing Delvers is paramount. I love a split of Rough/Tumble and Sudden Demise as sweepers of choice. I find Rough/Tumble and Sudden Demise to be excellent in the deck as mass removal. I love Sudden Demise because it can kill flying creatures, which Rough/Tumble cannot, and it can deal with Leovold and all his buddies without even targeting the opponent.

    My current removal suite:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Chain Lightning

    I feel like Chain Lightning as the 7th removal spell is excellent. It acts as another Lightning bolt at sorcery speed which is fine honestly. You play a lot of your removal at sorcery speed anyway because you don't want to tap out, especially when your opponent has an exposed fetchland, so you wait to untap. Chain Lightning plays very well to the aggressive side of the deck, being another burn spell that can go to the face, thus giving you more reach in the late game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
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  2. #2322

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    I don't understand this logic. If you kill one thing with it, you are already way ahead. It forces your opponent to have an answer immediately or you take over the game. Even if they have an answer, it is a 2 for 1, and of course, you could always counter the removal spell



    I like one in my sideboard, one in the main. You can't cast two of these in a delver mirror and expect to win. I bring it in against Eldrazi, elves, and taxes. But never against a deck with lightning bolts.



    But that is the entire point of the card. Have you ever gotten randomly screwed over by an ensnaring bridge, meekstone, or umezawa's jitte? (the list goes on). Many times I've drawn both grudges against D&T and end up having a dead card. I think 1 Grudge, 1 Abrade is perfect. Sometimes they open with Aether Vial, sometimes they open with Mom. Also, sometimes eldrazi has an aggro start like double mimic, sometimes they play a chalice. Drawing too many grudges is a good way to lose a game IMO.



    Not sure why you are so opposed to pingers, as they are usually 2 for 1's in a deck thats short on those. I play rough // tumble at times, but sometimes is awkward with true name. I've gravitated away from rough // tumble as of late.



    3 mana sorcery speed not to have an effect until the following turn? I don't think thats good enough.



    I can't believe you are having success with two dismembers in the grixis delver MU. They have so much reach in their deck with deathrites and bolts.
    Guess we will have to disagree on a lot of these because it appears our experiences have varied and we think of the deck differently. FWIW I don't think honden is good enough either, but the same goes for staticaster for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    I don't play any pingers in the sideboard because all the good pingers are expensive, and Grim Lavamancer isn't what you want in Threshold. I also like that a lot of cheap sweepers deal more than 1 damage, as killing Deathrite Shamans and opposing Delvers is paramount. I love a split of Rough/Tumble and Sudden Demise as sweepers of choice. I find Rough/Tumble and Sudden Demise to be excellent in the deck as mass removal. I love Sudden Demise because it can kill flying creatures, which Rough/Tumble cannot, and it can deal with Leovold and all his buddies without even targeting the opponent.

    My current removal suite:
    4 Lightning Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Chain Lightning

    I feel like Chain Lightning as the 7th removal spell is excellent. It acts as another Lightning bolt at sorcery speed which is fine honestly. You play a lot of your removal at sorcery speed anyway because you don't want to tap out, especially when your opponent has an exposed fetchland, so you wait to untap. Chain Lightning plays very well to the aggressive side of the deck, being another burn spell that can go to the face, thus giving you more reach in the late game.
    I've always been a fan of playing a split of either 1-2 rough//tumble and 1-2 forked bolt/seal of fire/arc trail in the sideboard to round out the removal suite. I've never gotten around to trying sudden demise in the board, though it sits in my bench waiting to be played one day. In canadian electrickery or the new sorcery speed one for one mana typically make the cut over it.

  3. #2323
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hi Guys!

    How viable is canadian threshold in the current meta? What are your opinions about the Hooting Mandrills build over more traditional lists? Would be nice to hear some opinions.

    Greetings

  4. #2324

    [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    A couple of guys @ our LGS tried Canadian last wednesday. I went 1-3, one went 3-1 and one 4-0. Notably there were two mirrors played. The biggest problem right now is the prevalence of DRS. Thus all of us played 6 or 7 removals main. I believe that's a necessary evil where I'd rather play more counters, probes or card selection.
    Our consensus regarding beaters is that goyf is better in some matchups and mandrill in other matchups notably those who play push. Perhabs the best is to play a mix to hedge different strategies. There's also the question of playing 11 or 12 threats. On the positive side stifle, wasteland and daze is great right now.

  5. #2325
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Thanks for your answer.
    My local meta is very prison/combo heavy atm with only 2 or 3 other people playing Delver (1 UR, 2 Grixis) and few other DRS decks so RUG does not seem too bad positioned to me.

    I don't own Goyfs so i would like to use Sean Brown's list as a starting point and see how it goes, does this look reasonable?

    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Delver of Secrets
    2 Hooting Mandrills

    4 Lighting Bolt
    2 Forked Bolt (or 1 Chain Lightning/1 Forked Bolt split)
    1 Dismember
    4 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Stifle
    3 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare

    4 Wasteland
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta

    Sideboard:
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Barbarian Ring
    1 Abrade
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Flusterstorm
    3 Pyroblast
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Sudden Demise
    1 Submerge
    2 True Name Nemesis

  6. #2326

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Looks great. If there's not too many DRS:s I would love to fit 2 probes in the spot of 3rd pierce and 2:nd forked bolt. Turn one probe can win you the game.

    I would also want to play another anti-control card beside TNN, blasts and loam. Be it winter orb, sylvan library or compost.

  7. #2327

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I've noticed hooting mandrills is popular as of late...as a matter of fact I have ran it with some success too.

    However, I don't think the configuration of 4 delver, 4 goose, 2 mandrills makes sense. All this configuration will do is assure that your delver will die. 40% of our threats die to fatal push / decay. Don't sleep on the goyf against Eldrazi, and he can become 5+ power against the deck he is "bad" against (czech pile has artifact and planeswalker).

    Another reason why I like goyf is sometimes we need to have the role of an aggro deck. It is easy to play a creature turn 1 and follow it up with a creature turn 2. Mandrills prevents this. Goyf is perfect for this.

    Also, if you look at the numbers from EW, there aren't many fatal pushes and abrupt decays floating around. Those decks are now running extra edicts main and in the sideboard. I would rather board into TNNs if I was trying to play some sort of hexproof creature lineup.

    I've noticed as of late that there are a lot of flusterstorms in people's sideboard. I've never realy liked this card, so perhaps someone can share their experience with it. Simply "upgrading" my spell pierces to flusterstorms in some match ups isn't enough justification for me, as spell pierce is already strong. Also, against weird decks like blood moon stompy, or decks where I want more countermagic but pyroblast is weak( BR reanimator, burn), I want additional spell pierces, not flusterstorms.

    I'm interested in hearing some thoughts on winter orb in the current meta, as well. I'm accustomed to having a card like this that can come in against most fair decks. Now, I find myself short on cards coming in against fair decks, but an abundance of cards that I want to take out. For example against Eldrazi, I would like to board out all stifles and mongooses, that is 8 cards. Or perhaps death & Taxes, where I want to cut my stifles and spell pierces, there just simply isn't enough to bring in and feel good about post board games.

    This brings me to the conclusion that I think there are too many cards in sideboards for decks like czech pile. Our gameplan is already very strong against them, and bringing in pyroblasts as well as true names is already a winning proposition. I say this because I see cards like Compost (and I even ran a ground seal for this match up) but I am finding that I have too many cards I want to bring in, and not enough cuts.

    TL:DR I think the deck is too narrowly configured right now with mandrills, flusters, etc. We are neglecting the "fair" match ups (eldrazi, maverick, burn, D&T) to beat a deck we already have a strong game plan against.

  8. #2328
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Hello,

    Since a few months, I play the following:

    4 Delver
    4 Tarmo
    2 Mandrills
    1 Vendilion Clique

    1 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    1 Forked Bolt
    1 Dismember
    1 Fire // Ice
    1 Become Immense

    //sideboard

    1 Sulphur elemental
    1 Graffdiggers' cage
    1 Winter Orb
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Hydroblast
    2 Pyrosalve
    1 Ancient Grudge
    2 Submerge
    2 Rough // Tumble

    The deck is pretty balanced to my taste and doesn't suffer too much from DRS.
    I like playing 11 threats, on the control-y side of things.
    Become Immense is pure "ice on the cake" but the burst is definitely real and often leads to numerous blowouts.
    Furthermore, having access to 2 virtual CA cards with Fire//Ice and Forked Bolt is mandatory as far as the current meta is concerned.
    Fire // Ice is also a very nice tempo card -> Tap your lone blocker EoT + draw a card and attack for lethal.

  9. #2329

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    However, I don't think the configuration of 4 delver, 4 goose, 2 mandrills makes sense. All this configuration will do is assure that your delver will die. 40% of our threats die to fatal push / decay. Don't sleep on the goyf against Eldrazi, and he can become 5+ power against the deck he is "bad" against (czech pile has artifact and planeswalker).

    Another reason why I like goyf is sometimes we need to have the role of an aggro deck. It is easy to play a creature turn 1 and follow it up with a creature turn 2. Mandrills prevents this. Goyf is perfect for this.

    Also, if you look at the numbers from EW, there aren't many fatal pushes and abrupt decays floating around. Those decks are now running extra edicts main and in the sideboard. I would rather board into TNNs if I was trying to play some sort of hexproof creature lineup.
    If your opponent has a removal spell for your delver and you don't have a counter then your delver will die. Playing worse creatures to bait removal on your delver is not a winning strategy. If you play Tarmogoyf and Delver then your opponent has the choice to either kill Tarmogoyf or Delver with Push. This is worse than them only being able to kill Delver, because you are giving your opponent extra options.

    EW Top 8
    - 3 Push 2 Decay (1 Decay SB) in BUG Delver
    - 1 Push 2 Decay in CP

    There is no commonly played removal spell that kills Mandrills but not Goyf; as long as people are playing a non-zero number of push/decay this will always be an important consideration.

    You already are (or should be) boarding TNN in matchups where your opponent will be bringing in edict. All of your creatures die to edict so I'm not sure what your point is. If you're saying that 'If all creatures die equally then just play the better one i.e. Goyf' then I have found in many situations being able to cast Mandrills for 1 mana or having trample is an upgrade over being slightly larger or not requiring cards in the graveyard.

    Against CP Goyf can become 5/6+, but the size of Goyf (compared to Mandrills) in this matchup is irrelevant because they don't have any 5/X or 4/X creature and all their removal and small creatures don't care about 4 toughness vs 5 or more. (Maybe you can argue that Mandrills trades for Kolaghans + Snap for example)

    Playing Goyf does let you aggro people out in ways that Mandrills doesn't, but these draws don't often happen. The main reason to play Goyf imo is that it can be bigger than Angler/Eldrazi, but to make that consistent you need to play 2+ cards of additional type and Eldrazi doesn't seem too popular at the moment.

    In matchups where people are boarding in Fluster they probably aren't boarding out Pierce, but in general I agree with your sentiment that Pierce is probably good enough in the matches where you want Fluster and the additional versatility vs other card types is important. I also agree that you want to try to build a SB with a solid plan for every matchup. I think that 1 Winter Orb is still fine but with the approximate demise of miracles there aren't many matchups where this card is very strong (in my opinion).

    As an aside I think the creature suite of 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Monkey/TNN is the best.
    I have tried maindeck Life from the Loam in the TNN slot for a while as an additional 'threat' (it applies pressure to your oppponent and can eventually 'win') but
    - I have been let down too many times by the fact that if you're behind on the board it doesn't do anything
    - I don't think the dredge is necessary to support Goose/Mandrills
    - I still feel that 11 is the right number of threat cards

  10. #2330

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    TL:DR I think the deck is too narrowly configured right now with mandrills, flusters, etc. We are neglecting the "fair" match ups (eldrazi, maverick, burn, D&T) to beat a deck we already have a strong game plan against.
    I like where you are going with this. The question is how would you configure your sideboard?
    I've played compost as well and it's not just for czech pile, I think of it as that I'm generally weak to DRS and thus want to board in a card that gives me an edge against all DRS-based deck. It is also a good play against reanimator, storm, dredge and a bunch of other decks.
    But I totally agree that maybe people, me included, may be overboarding versus certain decks.
    In my sideboard, versus Eldrazi, i would board in Abrade, Grudge, Loam and Winter orb for the stifles. That is exactly zero spells that deal with TKS and smashers.
    I totallt agree on that Goyf (which i play 4 of) is crucial in competing with the fair decks where your softcounters, bolts as removal and unkillable 3/3:s feels anemic.

  11. #2331

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If your opponent has a removal spell for your delver and you don't have a counter then your delver will die. Playing worse creatures to bait removal on your delver is not a winning strategy. If you play Tarmogoyf and Delver then your opponent has the choice to either kill Tarmogoyf or Delver with Push. This is worse than them only being able to kill Delver, because you are giving your opponent extra options.

    EW Top 8
    - 3 Push 2 Decay (1 Decay SB) in BUG Delver
    - 1 Push 2 Decay in CP

    There is no commonly played removal spell that kills Mandrills but not Goyf; as long as people are playing a non-zero number of push/decay this will always be an important consideration.

    Of course, however there are two schools of thought here...you can either
    1) be immune entirely to spot removal (play creatures like goose, monkey, TNN) or
    2) overload with targets (play delver and goyf, goose shines in different match up)
    I'm merely stressing that scenario 2 is an option in a decay / push meta, and that the current creature suite doesn't successfully do "1"


    You already are (or should be) boarding TNN in matchups where your opponent will be bringing in edict. All of your creatures die to edict so I'm not sure what your point is. If you're saying that 'If all creatures die equally then just play the better one i.e. Goyf' then I have found in many situations being able to cast Mandrills for 1 mana or having trample is an upgrade over being slightly larger or not requiring cards in the graveyard.

    Yes, I was more stressing that "if all creatures die equally" then it isn't an obvious choice to simply play creatures with shroud or CMC > 4

    Against CP Goyf can become 5/6+, but the size of Goyf (compared to Mandrills) in this matchup is irrelevant because they don't have any 5/X or 4/X creature and all their removal and small creatures don't care about 4 toughness vs 5 or more. (Maybe you can argue that Mandrills trades for Kolaghans + Snap for example)

    It matters in the sense that you have less restriction on when you can deploy it. Whether this outweighs not dying to removal for CMC <= 4, that is the question I'm really stressing here

    Playing Goyf does let you aggro people out in ways that Mandrills doesn't, but these draws don't often happen. The main reason to play Goyf imo is that it can be bigger than Angler/Eldrazi, but to make that consistent you need to play 2+ cards of additional type and Eldrazi doesn't seem too popular at the moment.

    I would say that they happen enough (especially in game 1) that it should not be ignored (in regards to an aggro role). Being far ahead on board and stepping on your opponents throat can win games that we have no business winning againt decks such as taxes, czech pile, and loam decks. And we barely need to play additional types ourselves, as czech pile has 4 artifacts and 4 planeswalkers, eldrazi has 6 or so artifacts, loam decks have enchantments, artifacts, and perhaps even planeswalkers

    In matchups where people are boarding in Fluster they probably aren't boarding out Pierce, but in general I agree with your sentiment that Pierce is probably good enough in the matches where you want Fluster and the additional versatility vs other card types is important. I also agree that you want to try to build a SB with a solid plan for every matchup. I think that 1 Winter Orb is still fine but with the approximate demise of miracles there aren't many matchups where this card is very strong (in my opinion).

    Yea, winter orb strikes me as an "ok" card but by no means the haymaker it was when miracles was at the top. What cards do you board for eldrazi, taxes? I find little overlap between the two except for maybe a copy of dismember if it is in the sideboard.

    As an aside I think the creature suite of 4/4/2/1 Delver/Goose/Monkey/TNN is the best.
    I have tried maindeck Life from the Loam in the TNN slot for a while as an additional 'threat' (it applies pressure to your oppponent and can eventually 'win') but
    - I have been let down too many times by the fact that if you're behind on the board it doesn't do anything
    - I don't think the dredge is necessary to support Goose/Mandrills
    - I still feel that 11 is the right number of threat cards

    I've come to a similar conclusion regarding loam, I have it in my SB now. Quite simply there are too many match ups where it either is not good or like you said - win more.
    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    I like where you are going with this. The question is how would you configure your sideboard?
    I've played compost as well and it's not just for czech pile, I think of it as that I'm generally weak to DRS and thus want to board in a card that gives me an edge against all DRS-based deck. It is also a good play against reanimator, storm, dredge and a bunch of other decks.
    But I totally agree that maybe people, me included, may be overboarding versus certain decks.
    In my sideboard, versus Eldrazi, i would board in Abrade, Grudge, Loam and Winter orb for the stifles. That is exactly zero spells that deal with TKS and smashers.
    I totallt agree on that Goyf (which i play 4 of) is crucial in competing with the fair decks where your softcounters, bolts as removal and unkillable 3/3:s feels anemic.
    Yea, I'm honestly trying to figure that out myself. In a miracles meta I felt more comfortable game planning around winter orb, but I'm just not sure if its still a card that is positioned appropriately to plan several match ups around. I am also having a difficult time finding overlapping cards for maverick / loam / taxes / burn. dismember is good sometimes, sylvan library good sometimes, submerge good sometimes, but with 15 slots I can't find a good balance yet. I'm gonna think about it some more and come back with a proposal. In the meantime, if you have any good ideas I would love to hear them.

    I used compost as an example but didn't mean to single it out as a "bad" card. Of course it has its applications. But for example against Czech, storm, and reanimator I'm first bringing in pyroblasts / surgicals / additional copies of spell pierce / flusterstorm (if I was playing it). At the point where I want to have compost I'm already cutting good cards for good cards, so to me that is a signal of an unbalanced SB. Unless of course I am facing dredge but that is not something that is influencing me in deck construction right now :D

  12. #2332

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I agree with this statement. The sideboard should be built from what you want to side out.

  13. #2333

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Maybe you have 1 creature and are attacking for lethal next turn, and your opponent only has 1 drawstep to find a kill spell.
    Maybe the threat is Delver and it dies to Push, maybe it's Mandrills and it doesn't die to Push. Being killed by fewer things is still an argument in favour of the card, even if the entire creature base isn't Decay/Push proof.

    I agree that having multiple Goyfs in the deck let you sometimes execute an aggro gameplan that the deck can't really do with Mandrills, and if Mandrills was only a 4/4 Vanilla I would be more likely to play Tarmogoyf instead. Overall I find that Trample + Smother-Protection is a better deal at the moment but this may not necessarily always be true in the future.

  14. #2334

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    We can contrive examples where one card is better than another...maybe that same opponent would already be dead because your goyf would have been 5 or 6 power. Or because you got to play it a turn sooner.

  15. #2335

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Anyways, I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their deck. The merits for mandrills vs goyf are clear. I expect a resurgence of Eldrazi after it almost won eternal weekend. I think Goyf leads to an overall more well rounded deck than mandrills. I will be rocking goyfs.

    That doesn't change the fact that, I still feel most of the RUG lists that pop up lack a clear plan for nonblue fair decks.

  16. #2336

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    I was mainly trying to point out that this...
    Of course, however there are two schools of thought here...you can either
    1) be immune entirely to spot removal (play creatures like goose, monkey, TNN) or
    2) overload with targets (play delver and goyf, goose shines in different match up)
    I'm merely stressing that scenario 2 is an option in a decay / push meta, and that the current creature suite doesn't successfully do "1"
    ...Is a false dilemma, because making your creatures as immune to removal as possible is still advantageous even if you can't make them all invincible

  17. #2337
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Playing Goose + Mandrills in the same deck put too much pressure on your graveyard which is different with a Goyf + Mandrill setup.

    I think Mandrills are replacing Goose, not Goyf.

    My two cents.

  18. #2338
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Playing Goose + Mandrills in the same deck put too much pressure on your graveyard which is different with a Goyf + Mandrill setup.

    I think Mandrills are replacing Goose, not Goyf.

    My two cents.
    Delving away threshold for Mongoose to play a Mandrills is fine. You now have a 4/4 trampler, which in many matchups is just better than the thresholded Goose, then you will grow the Mongoose back in time. Playing Goose and Mandrills may look insane, but when you actually try it, it really isn't that bad. I recommend that everyone actually play with the deck, if you haven't, with the Mandrills Mongoose threat sweet before ragging on it. I have played the deck quite a bit in the past couple of months and I am very high on the Mandrills/Goose threat base.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    I tap all 5 of my lands on my turn. He's like....OMG not Shriekmaw. I land Batterskull. He's like. Ok sure. LOL, not very often someone is more happy to see Batterskull then a Shriekmaw.
    ______________________________________
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  19. #2339
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    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan View Post
    Delving away threshold for Mongoose to play a Mandrills is fine. You now have a 4/4 trampler, which in many matchups is just better than the thresholded Goose, then you will grow the Mongoose back in time. Playing Goose and Mandrills may look insane, but when you actually try it, it really isn't that bad. I recommend that everyone actually play with the deck, if you haven't, with the Mandrills Mongoose threat sweet before ragging on it. I have played the deck quite a bit in the past couple of months and I am very high on the Mandrills/Goose threat base.
    I did try both setups.
    I prefer Goyf + Mandrills rather than Goose + Mandrills.

  20. #2340

    Re: [Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

    kombatkiwi,

    Can you share your board plan vs Eldrazi & czech pile?

    Ralf, can you do the same?

    Can you both characterize how you feel each match up is?

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